NZR review
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Dylan Cleaver has a good summary
Put all those pre-existing biases aside and unless I’m missing the master-key that unlocks this issue, this is what it boils down to:
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A review into the governance of a struggling game was commissioned.
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The reviewers, deemed to be experts in their field, made findings, which were brutal while at the same time obvious to anybody who has cared about this sport for long enough.
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They made recommendations, which, although obviously not universally popular, were easy enough to implement.
So… and this is the part that cracks me up, a group of people whose body of work was reviewed and found to be lacking in both the understanding and delivery of good governance, sat back and went, “Hmmm, I get where you guys are coming from, but leave it with us, we have a few ideas of our own.”
So we now find ourselves inside some of the denser pages of a Kafka novel, where the PUs noted the points made about the PUs and used the power vested in them by the PUs to come up with a compromise devised by the PUs for the benefit of the PUs.
Then put out a press release with a chef’s kiss of a pay-off line (emphasis and all-caps is mine):
“‘[This weekend] 150,000 people will be out on the playing fields, and the provincial unions will continue their work, UNCHANGED.”
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Dylan Cleaver has a good summary
Put all those pre-existing biases aside and unless I’m missing the master-key that unlocks this issue, this is what it boils down to:
-
A review into the governance of a struggling game was commissioned.
-
The reviewers, deemed to be experts in their field, made findings, which were brutal while at the same time obvious to anybody who has cared about this sport for long enough.
-
They made recommendations, which, although obviously not universally popular, were easy enough to implement.
So… and this is the part that cracks me up, a group of people whose body of work was reviewed and found to be lacking in both the understanding and delivery of good governance, sat back and went, “Hmmm, I get where you guys are coming from, but leave it with us, we have a few ideas of our own.”
So we now find ourselves inside some of the denser pages of a Kafka novel, where the PUs noted the points made about the PUs and used the power vested in them by the PUs to come up with a compromise devised by the PUs for the benefit of the PUs.
Then put out a press release with a chef’s kiss of a pay-off line (emphasis and all-caps is mine):
“‘[This weekend] 150,000 people will be out on the playing fields, and the provincial unions will continue their work, UNCHANGED.”
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
The reviewers, deemed to be experts in their field,
People need to stop worshipping these so-called experts. Including Dylan.
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@Kirwan said in NZR review:
The reviewers, deemed to be experts in their field,
People need to stop worshipping these so-called experts. Including Dylan.
@Winger said in NZR review:
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
The reviewers, deemed to be experts in their field,
People need to stop worshipping these so-called experts. Including Dylan.
Well, we've had at least 25 years of mis-management by the status-quo, so lets get people in that have run large businesses successfully.
Meritocracy is alweays better than jobs for the boys.
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Dylan Cleaver has a good summary
Put all those pre-existing biases aside and unless I’m missing the master-key that unlocks this issue, this is what it boils down to:
-
A review into the governance of a struggling game was commissioned.
-
The reviewers, deemed to be experts in their field, made findings, which were brutal while at the same time obvious to anybody who has cared about this sport for long enough.
-
They made recommendations, which, although obviously not universally popular, were easy enough to implement.
So… and this is the part that cracks me up, a group of people whose body of work was reviewed and found to be lacking in both the understanding and delivery of good governance, sat back and went, “Hmmm, I get where you guys are coming from, but leave it with us, we have a few ideas of our own.”
So we now find ourselves inside some of the denser pages of a Kafka novel, where the PUs noted the points made about the PUs and used the power vested in them by the PUs to come up with a compromise devised by the PUs for the benefit of the PUs.
Then put out a press release with a chef’s kiss of a pay-off line (emphasis and all-caps is mine):
“‘[This weekend] 150,000 people will be out on the playing fields, and the provincial unions will continue their work, UNCHANGED.”
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
“‘[This weekend] 150,000 people will be out on the playing fields, and the provincial unions will continue their work, UNCHANGED.”
Was this ever going to change, regardless of what happened the top of the game?
Silly throw away comment
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@Kirwan said in NZR review:
“‘[This weekend] 150,000 people will be out on the playing fields, and the provincial unions will continue their work, UNCHANGED.”
Was this ever going to change, regardless of what happened the top of the game?
Silly throw away comment
@taniwharugby said in NZR review:
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
“‘[This weekend] 150,000 people will be out on the playing fields, and the provincial unions will continue their work, UNCHANGED.”
Was this ever going to change, regardless of what happened the top of the game?
Silly throw away comment
For them to put that in the press release speaks to their intent IMO.
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@Winger said in NZR review:
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
The reviewers, deemed to be experts in their field,
People need to stop worshipping these so-called experts. Including Dylan.
Well, we've had at least 25 years of mis-management by the status-quo, so lets get people in that have run large businesses successfully.
Meritocracy is alweays better than jobs for the boys.
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
@Winger said in NZR review:
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
The reviewers, deemed to be experts in their field,
People need to stop worshipping these so-called experts. Including Dylan.
Well, we've had at least 25 years of mis-management by the status-quo, so lets get people in that have run large businesses successfully.
Meritocracy is alweays better than jobs for the boys.
How many women are on the NZR Board. What about the Chair.
Did you listen to the Dave Moffett interview? He has lots of experience and formed a different viewpoint. Like me he thinks this independent directors will solve all our problems is just bullshit. Also Robs proposal doesn't work that well according to Moffett. He gave the Wales example
Maybe the PU's took all of this into account and did the best thing. But they are mostly men so toxic masculinity... So, they can't be right I guess. Just fill the place with diversity appointments and we will be led to the promised land.
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Rob Nichol told exactly what would happen, it wasn't a threat or an ultimatum. It was a declaration of what the NZRPA had decided. NZRPA board: https://www.nzrpa.co.nz/our-people/nzrpa-board
These people know pro rugby, seem to have a better idea of business (like forcing the better SL deal on NZR), and with the little gems of PU influence that have been smuggled in under the press radar (thanks @gt12 ) you can see why they are worried -
Rob Nichol told exactly what would happen, it wasn't a threat or an ultimatum. It was a declaration of what the NZRPA had decided. NZRPA board: https://www.nzrpa.co.nz/our-people/nzrpa-board
These people know pro rugby, seem to have a better idea of business (like forcing the better SL deal on NZR), and with the little gems of PU influence that have been smuggled in under the press radar (thanks @gt12 ) you can see why they are worried -
@Winger said in NZR review:
@Machpants said in NZR review:
it wasn't a threat
Sounded like it to me
It was making sure the PUs knew the full result of their vote, being open and honest. NZRPA were prepared for both eventualities, and I don't have a problem with open statements.
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@Kirwan said in NZR review:
@Winger said in NZR review:
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
The reviewers, deemed to be experts in their field,
People need to stop worshipping these so-called experts. Including Dylan.
Well, we've had at least 25 years of mis-management by the status-quo, so lets get people in that have run large businesses successfully.
Meritocracy is alweays better than jobs for the boys.
How many women are on the NZR Board. What about the Chair.
Did you listen to the Dave Moffett interview? He has lots of experience and formed a different viewpoint. Like me he thinks this independent directors will solve all our problems is just bullshit. Also Robs proposal doesn't work that well according to Moffett. He gave the Wales example
Maybe the PU's took all of this into account and did the best thing. But they are mostly men so toxic masculinity... So, they can't be right I guess. Just fill the place with diversity appointments and we will be led to the promised land.
@Winger said in NZR review:
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
@Winger said in NZR review:
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
The reviewers, deemed to be experts in their field,
People need to stop worshipping these so-called experts. Including Dylan.
Well, we've had at least 25 years of mis-management by the status-quo, so lets get people in that have run large businesses successfully.
Meritocracy is alweays better than jobs for the boys.
How many women are on the NZR Board. What about the Chair.
Did you listen to the Dave Moffett interview? He has lots of experience and formed a different viewpoint. Like me he thinks this independent directors will solve all our problems is just bullshit. Also Robs proposal doesn't work that well according to Moffett. He gave the Wales example
Maybe the PU's took all of this into account and did the best thing. But they are mostly men so toxic masculinity... So, they can't be right I guess. Just fill the place with diversity appointments and we will be led to the promised land.
Why are you bleating on about DEI? Are you confused about which thread you are on?
Meritocracy is what I'm supporting. As for Moffett, his record is pretty poor - a good example of "not fit for purpose". You have a short memory.
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@Kirwan said in NZR review:
The reviewers, deemed to be experts in their field,
People need to stop worshipping these so-called experts. Including Dylan.
@Winger said in NZR review:
People need to stop worshipping these so-called experts. Including Dylan.
@Winger said in NZR review:
Did you listen to the Dave Moffett interview? He has lots of experience
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@Winger said in NZR review:
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
@Winger said in NZR review:
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
The reviewers, deemed to be experts in their field,
People need to stop worshipping these so-called experts. Including Dylan.
Well, we've had at least 25 years of mis-management by the status-quo, so lets get people in that have run large businesses successfully.
Meritocracy is alweays better than jobs for the boys.
How many women are on the NZR Board. What about the Chair.
Did you listen to the Dave Moffett interview? He has lots of experience and formed a different viewpoint. Like me he thinks this independent directors will solve all our problems is just bullshit. Also Robs proposal doesn't work that well according to Moffett. He gave the Wales example
Maybe the PU's took all of this into account and did the best thing. But they are mostly men so toxic masculinity... So, they can't be right I guess. Just fill the place with diversity appointments and we will be led to the promised land.
Why are you bleating on about DEI? Are you confused about which thread you are on?
Meritocracy is what I'm supporting. As for Moffett, his record is pretty poor - a good example of "not fit for purpose". You have a short memory.
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@Kirwan said in NZR review:
As for Moffett, his record is pretty poor
Was it Moffett who was in charge when NZR made about 50 million in XR gains. whereas Aust didn't take out forward cover
Or was it someone else
@Winger said in NZR review:
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
As for Moffett, his record is pretty poor
Was it Moffett who was in charge when NZR made about 50 million in XR gains. whereas Aust didn't take out forward cover
Or was it someone else
Steve Tew I believe.
Moffett was the one who lurched from one disaster to the next in Wales and as spent the last decade or so being a backseat driver.
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It seems to me that the NZRPA has planned for both vote outcomes, and been very open about what the next steps will be.
So we'll get that professional council/board that negotiates directly with NZR to run the pro game. We'll probably end up with with more Super Rugby teams, a longer season and no contracted players in the NPC.
The NPC will go back to be being represenative rugby of their local clubs (not Auckland club players playing in Hawkes Bay for example). Effectively the top tier of club rugby and fully amateur.
In the current system West Coast gets a vote on how the game is run, but the Crusaders don't. That's ass backwards.
We can't afford two professional comps, so Super Rugby will be the new NPC and will have a dedicated organisation to improve the comp (hopefully with a new name). Without the PUs voting for self interest, we'll have a competition voting for it's own self interest, and PUs can run the grassroots.
There will have to be compromises between the NZR and the new org, but that's fine. Easier to herd 5 (up to 10) cats than 27 too.
The change over will be messy, but will be a more sensible structure than the worst of both words we have no, and the PUs have no interest in actually fixing.
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
It seems to me that the NZRPA has planned for both vote outcomes, and been very open about what the next steps will be.
So we'll get that professional council/board that negotiates directly with NZR to run the pro game. We'll probably end up with with more Super Rugby teams, a longer season and no contracted players in the NPC.
The NPC will go back to be being represenative rugby of their local clubs (not Auckland club players playing in Hawkes Bay for example). Effectively the top tier of club rugby and fully amateur.
In the current system West Coast gets a vote on how the game is run, but the Crusaders don't. That's ass backwards.
We can't afford two professional comps, so Super Rugby will be the new NPC and will have a dedicated organisation to improve the comp (hopefully with a new name). Without the PUs voting for self interest, we'll have a competition voting for it's own self interest, and PUs can run the grassroots.
There will have to be compromises between the NZR and the new org, but that's fine. Easier to herd 5 (up to 10) cats than 27 too.
The change over will be messy, but will be a more sensible structure than the worst of both words we have no, and the PUs have no interest in actually fixing.
Realistically five teams is the maximum NZ can sustain in a Super rugby of the current level.
And without a strong NPC the foundations are undermined.
Other than AB/Maori squad members many SR players will be available from June to September.
This cries out to me for a streamlined/upgraded NPC, which needs to dovetail with provincial rugby.
If the NZPRA tries to run a separate structure, then, based on the England experience that will be a financial black hole.
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@Kirwan said in NZR review:
@Winger said in NZR review:
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
The reviewers, deemed to be experts in their field,
People need to stop worshipping these so-called experts. Including Dylan.
Well, we've had at least 25 years of mis-management by the status-quo, so lets get people in that have run large businesses successfully.
Meritocracy is alweays better than jobs for the boys.
How many women are on the NZR Board. What about the Chair.
Did you listen to the Dave Moffett interview? He has lots of experience and formed a different viewpoint. Like me he thinks this independent directors will solve all our problems is just bullshit. Also Robs proposal doesn't work that well according to Moffett. He gave the Wales example
Maybe the PU's took all of this into account and did the best thing. But they are mostly men so toxic masculinity... So, they can't be right I guess. Just fill the place with diversity appointments and we will be led to the promised land.
@Winger said in NZR review:
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
@Winger said in NZR review:
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
The reviewers, deemed to be experts in their field,
People need to stop worshipping these so-called experts. Including Dylan.
Well, we've had at least 25 years of mis-management by the status-quo, so lets get people in that have run large businesses successfully.
Meritocracy is alweays better than jobs for the boys.
How many women are on the NZR Board. What about the Chair.
Did you listen to the Dave Moffett interview? He has lots of experience and formed a different viewpoint. Like me he thinks this independent directors will solve all our problems is just bullshit. Also Robs proposal doesn't work that well according to Moffett. He gave the Wales example
The same Wales Moffett helped ruin..?
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I hope the players come to their senses. All of the media coverage has been been to amplify the rhetoric of the NZRP - they wanted the review, they chose the reviewers. The public could easily turn against them if they continue to behave poorly.
But, you would not expect anything else from Super Rugby Franchises who have never given a shit about club or NPC rugby. Also, special thanks to Blues for all the games they have player at Ōkara Park over the years - 2. Allowing private ownership of SR franchises was a big mistake.
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I hope the players come to their senses. All of the media coverage has been been to amplify the rhetoric of the NZRP - they wanted the review, they chose the reviewers. The public could easily turn against them if they continue to behave poorly.
But, you would not expect anything else from Super Rugby Franchises who have never given a shit about club or NPC rugby. Also, special thanks to Blues for all the games they have player at Ōkara Park over the years - 2. Allowing private ownership of SR franchises was a big mistake.
@kev said in NZR review:
Also, special thanks to Blues for all the games they have player at Ōkara Park over the years - 2
Fair play, they scheduled a third but Covid munted that.
I'd love to see more games travel around with Super, but the structure at the moment incentivises single stadiums, season memberships. Super doesn't know what it is - a feeder comp for the All Blacks, or a standalone premier competition.
Rest period for players, no independent board (until recently) with any autonomy, weird financing arrangements with stakeholders... it's just an unusual setup. And they killed it, just like the NPC. Hopefully we see reinvigoration after the NZR vote.
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@kev said in NZR review:
Also, special thanks to Blues for all the games they have player at Ōkara Park over the years - 2
Fair play, they scheduled a third but Covid munted that.
I'd love to see more games travel around with Super, but the structure at the moment incentivises single stadiums, season memberships. Super doesn't know what it is - a feeder comp for the All Blacks, or a standalone premier competition.
Rest period for players, no independent board (until recently) with any autonomy, weird financing arrangements with stakeholders... it's just an unusual setup. And they killed it, just like the NPC. Hopefully we see reinvigoration after the NZR vote.
@nzzp a thing that has taken away from the impact of SR for me has been the commercialisation of the game without adequate reference to it history. It started as tribal regional based competition but abandoned that quickly to become just 5 professional clubs. I don’t have a SR team, gave up tickets a long time ago.
Then if you compare the marketing of the game to NRL it’s like night and day. The commentary, analysis and enthusiasm for their product is next level. Commentators for NPC rugby don’t know the players, frequently criticise the game, and act like it’s below them. There is no NZR love what so ever for NPC. Then at Super Rugby level you just get media jobs for the boys. The one that has stood out is the Aotearoa Rugby Podcast which is genuinely insightful.
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@Kirwan said in NZR review:
@Winger said in NZR review:
@Kirwan said in NZR review:
The reviewers, deemed to be experts in their field,
People need to stop worshipping these so-called experts. Including Dylan.
Well, we've had at least 25 years of mis-management by the status-quo, so lets get people in that have run large businesses successfully.
Meritocracy is alweays better than jobs for the boys.
How many women are on the NZR Board. What about the Chair.
Did you listen to the Dave Moffett interview? He has lots of experience and formed a different viewpoint. Like me he thinks this independent directors will solve all our problems is just bullshit. Also Robs proposal doesn't work that well according to Moffett. He gave the Wales example
Maybe the PU's took all of this into account and did the best thing. But they are mostly men so toxic masculinity... So, they can't be right I guess. Just fill the place with diversity appointments and we will be led to the promised land.
@Winger said in NZR review:
Did you listen to the Dave Moffett interview? He has lots of experience and formed a different viewpoint. Like me he thinks this independent directors will solve all our problems is just bullshit. Also Robs proposal doesn't work that well according to Moffett. He gave the Wales example
Given Moffett's record, he's a bloody good contrary indicator.
