RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina
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@Dan54 you're trying to force this definition of a bandwagon jumper onto to justify undermining people's opinion, i never said these people watched on and off, im talking about people that religiously would get up to watch games at 3am or go down to the pub with mates to watch a game and now are just as likely to watch a replay. You might not like it and you might be a "better" fan and i hope that makes you feel good, i know i wish i still enjoyed watching the AB's as much as i use to...but none of that actually invalidates peoples opinions other than in your head
I also didn't say these people dont support the AB's anymore, people can still support a team and criticise things that are done poorly
If you want to hold yourself up as the only true fan then fair play but i think you're being unfair to other including myself trying to imply they some sort of bandwagon jumper just because we feel some things over the last few years have have been unenjoyable
this all might be better placed in the All Black 2023 thread or something
@Kiwiwomble said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
If you want to hold yourself up as the only true fan then fair play but i think you're being unfair to other including myself trying to imply they some sort of bandwagon jumper just because we feel some things over the last few years have have been unenjoyable
Where did I say that I held myself as the only true fan? That is just crap and you know it. What I saying is a supporter (and I never use word fan) watches and supports ABs regardless of who is coaching or playing.
I talk to quite a few at gold club who don't watch it live , because they can't afford Sky and don't find watching games at pubs any good with it too often full of pissed jokers yelling etc( never watch games in pubs for that reason myself). I know a lot of people in this situation(and some in my family), but not one has said they don't watch because of how the team is playing or because of coach as you say. That is all I say. Hell I live in the Naki and a number were asking me if the final was on FTA this week.
But anyway as you say this is not thread for the discussion.
And you may want to talk to Umaga about bandwagon jumper etc anyway.And out of interest I call myself a bandwagon for NZ cricket team, I watch them etc,when it suits, but don't have a passion for them.
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@Kiwiwomble said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
If you want to hold yourself up as the only true fan then fair play but i think you're being unfair to other including myself trying to imply they some sort of bandwagon jumper just because we feel some things over the last few years have have been unenjoyable
Where did I say that I held myself as the only true fan? That is just crap and you know it. What I saying is a supporter (and I never use word fan) watches and supports ABs regardless of who is coaching or playing.
I talk to quite a few at gold club who don't watch it live , because they can't afford Sky and don't find watching games at pubs any good with it too often full of pissed jokers yelling etc( never watch games in pubs for that reason myself). I know a lot of people in this situation(and some in my family), but not one has said they don't watch because of how the team is playing or because of coach as you say. That is all I say. Hell I live in the Naki and a number were asking me if the final was on FTA this week.
But anyway as you say this is not thread for the discussion.
And you may want to talk to Umaga about bandwagon jumper etc anyway.And out of interest I call myself a bandwagon for NZ cricket team, I watch them etc,when it suits, but don't have a passion for them.
@Dan54 you're literally lecturing me/us on how to be a good supporter, whats acceptable and whats not if we dont want to be judged as a bandwagon jumper and explained you watch live thick or thin regardless of whether you like the coach or a player...so you are saying in your eyes youre a better support than those that might have less enthusiasm for the AB's based on the last few years
dont know why i would have to have a chat with Tana, i agree with what hes saying, people changing their opinion from week to week, one or two results making people forget what they were saying as he has described...thats not the situation i was talking about
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@Dan54 you're literally lecturing me/us on how to be a good supporter, whats acceptable and whats not if we dont want to be judged as a bandwagon jumper and explained you watch live thick or thin regardless of whether you like the coach or a player...so you are saying in your eyes youre a better support than those that might have less enthusiasm for the AB's based on the last few years
dont know why i would have to have a chat with Tana, i agree with what hes saying, people changing their opinion from week to week, one or two results making people forget what they were saying as he has described...thats not the situation i was talking about
@Kiwiwomble said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@Dan54 you're literally lecturing me/us on how to be a good supporter, whats acceptable and whats not if we dont want to be judged as a bandwagon jumper and explained you watch live thick or thin regardless of whether you like the coach or a player...so you are saying in your eyes youre a better support than those that might have less enthusiasm for the AB's based on the last few years
dont know why i would have to have a chat with Tana, i agree with what hes saying, people changing their opinion from week to week, one or two results making people forget what they were saying as he has described...thats not the situation i was talking about
Not lecturing, anyone can be whatever kind of supporter they want, just telling you what I think is a supporter and it was about the AB legacy anyway, not about supporters. The discussion was has Foster damaged the AB legacy, I say no it takes more than a few not liking the coach to do that. But all good anyway.
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@Kiwiwomble said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@Dan54 you're literally lecturing me/us on how to be a good supporter, whats acceptable and whats not if we dont want to be judged as a bandwagon jumper and explained you watch live thick or thin regardless of whether you like the coach or a player...so you are saying in your eyes youre a better support than those that might have less enthusiasm for the AB's based on the last few years
dont know why i would have to have a chat with Tana, i agree with what hes saying, people changing their opinion from week to week, one or two results making people forget what they were saying as he has described...thats not the situation i was talking about
Not lecturing, anyone can be whatever kind of supporter they want, just telling you what I think is a supporter and it was about the AB legacy anyway, not about supporters. The discussion was has Foster damaged the AB legacy, I say no it takes more than a few not liking the coach to do that. But all good anyway.
@Dan54 i honestly give up because it really seems like you're being deliberately obtuse
its not the fact some of us dont like foster that is damaging the legacy...we dont like him because we feel he he has damaged the legacy. you seem to be bending over backwards to twist things to make them sound trivial, below your elevated level of supporter
i say life long fans find less enjoyment...you try and say im talking about casual fans that dipped in and out
you also are the one that introduced the supporter argument
@Dan54 said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@Machpants said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
This is the same legacy that foster has been systematically dismantling since his appointment? There are many reasons none of us trust fosters ABs see the fosters first thread
That just shows you have no idea of the All Blacks legacy. It as @DaGrubster built on 120 years, and I would suggest it built on teams AND supporters.....
i was just answering you're point, i think its unfair to say a legacy involves supporters but brush off those that are unhappy as not real supporters
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It's all hyperbolic bullshit anyway. Damaged the legacy? jog on.
Lost the Bledisloe? No
Lost the Rugby Championship? No
Crashed out of the World Cup early? No"Oh but we lost to Ireland for the first time" they wail. Have Ireland ever been the best team in the world before?
"we lost to France!" well this is the best French team i have ever seen. And we've only played them in France.Has it all been sunshine and blowjobs? No. Losing to Argentina at home still rankles, despite the fact they gat an annual chance at it now. And there have been some very average games. But really, that is just us reverting to the mean. Even this tarnished legacy regime is winning 7 out of 10 times isn't it?
Not a vintage AB period, but the real old guys here will tell you about times we couldn't win games. Fuck, even i remember 1998.
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It's all hyperbolic bullshit anyway. Damaged the legacy? jog on.
Lost the Bledisloe? No
Lost the Rugby Championship? No
Crashed out of the World Cup early? No"Oh but we lost to Ireland for the first time" they wail. Have Ireland ever been the best team in the world before?
"we lost to France!" well this is the best French team i have ever seen. And we've only played them in France.Has it all been sunshine and blowjobs? No. Losing to Argentina at home still rankles, despite the fact they gat an annual chance at it now. And there have been some very average games. But really, that is just us reverting to the mean. Even this tarnished legacy regime is winning 7 out of 10 times isn't it?
Not a vintage AB period, but the real old guys here will tell you about times we couldn't win games. Fuck, even i remember 1998.
@mariner4life See you sum it up a lot better than I could possibly!
Hell we lost to everyone first time sometime. Remember first time Lions beat us, French beat us in a series at home etc as well. -
As to the "passionate fan" shit, that mainly subsides the older you get. Love chatting footy with anyone i can bore. But the actual results of any sport doesn't affect me for longer than the post-match bullshit chat in the studio. I was gutted when the Lions lost the GF for about 10 minutes. I was stoked when the ABs won on Sunday, for about 10 minutes (then i went back to bed).
The physical exploits of people i will never meet do not define my self esteem or my mood. -
As to the "passionate fan" shit, that mainly subsides the older you get. Love chatting footy with anyone i can bore. But the actual results of any sport doesn't affect me for longer than the post-match bullshit chat in the studio. I was gutted when the Lions lost the GF for about 10 minutes. I was stoked when the ABs won on Sunday, for about 10 minutes (then i went back to bed).
The physical exploits of people i will never meet do not define my self esteem or my mood.@mariner4life Once again bang on, I still tell everyone when we lost the 95 WC final ,I got up in morning and the sun came up, I saw all the celebrations etc in SA a country that had problems, and shrugged my shoulders and has never really worried me when we lost since. I disappointed for a while and then just look forward to next test or game. I same with whoever is coach, or is in the team, they not going to effect my life .
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i cared way more then! but i was a teenager soooo
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i cared way more then! but i was a teenager soooo
@mariner4life Lol mate I was 41 by then and as you say with age comes sense or something. Hell when we lost SF in 2003 I lived in Aus and copped a little bit, but was still able to shrug it off. Wan't always grown up enough to do that I admit.
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This is the same legacy that foster has been systematically dismantling since his appointment? There are many reasons none of us trust fosters ABs see the fosters first thread
@Machpants said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
This is the same legacy that foster has been systematically dismantling since his appointment? There are many reasons none of us trust fosters ABs see the fosters first thread
TBF, there were many on here who wanted Shaun Stevenson parachuted into the starting AB 15 as he had all the skills, experience was over-rated and he was the man for the big occasion. (It's the Fern way of things....)
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@sparky said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
They’ve announced when the team is being named. https://twitter.com/allblacks/status/1714375292620538101
So is it widely accepted that the only change to the 23 will be a straight swap, Telea for Fainga'anuku?
Possible perhaps Fainga'anuku drops to the bench, because ALB did sub on at left wing in the end.
Other possibility is Roigard on the bench by the horses for courses argument, but I can't see it, and I doubt there will be any other changes. The team who was good enough to beat the World Number One is the one to go for, outside of Telea, that was out best 23.
@frugby said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
So is it widely accepted that the only change to the 23 will be a straight swap, Telea for Fainga'anuku?
Minimal changes. More game time for the bench. Injuries are my concern
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@Machpants said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
This is the same legacy that foster has been systematically dismantling since his appointment? There are many reasons none of us trust fosters ABs see the fosters first thread
TBF, there were many on here who wanted Shaun Stevenson parachuted into the starting AB 15 as he had all the skills, experience was over-rated and he was the man for the big occasion. (It's the Fern way of things....)
@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@Machpants said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
This is the same legacy that foster has been systematically dismantling since his appointment? There are many reasons none of us trust fosters ABs see the fosters first thread
TBF, there were many on here who wanted Shaun Stevenson parachuted into the starting AB 15 as he had all the skills, experience was over-rated and he was the man for the big occasion. (It's the Fern way of things....)
I still stand by lowest ever word ranking and also biggest ever losses against pretty much every Tier 1 side means he has been a disaster for the ABs. I love for us to win the RWC but the shit that has gone on before makes it not worth it.
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@Machpants said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
This is the same legacy that foster has been systematically dismantling since his appointment? There are many reasons none of us trust fosters ABs see the fosters first thread
TBF, there were many on here who wanted Shaun Stevenson parachuted into the starting AB 15 as he had all the skills, experience was over-rated and he was the man for the big occasion. (It's the Fern way of things....)
@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@Machpants said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
This is the same legacy that foster has been systematically dismantling since his appointment? There are many reasons none of us trust fosters ABs see the fosters first thread
TBF, there were many on here who wanted Shaun Stevenson parachuted into the starting AB 15 as he had all the skills, experience was over-rated and he was the man for the big occasion. (It's the Fern way of things....)
Well we are yet to see Stevenson at fullback in a test match. One game on the wing when the whole team was changed doesn't answer the question of him as a fullback.
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@BerniesCorner said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@stodders said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
So if Angus blows a calf, Berry or Dickson will take over
And if Smith blows a calf what's the plan.
Just saying.We make urgent appointments with the cardiologist.
There’s two players that we can least avoid being injured, Nuggie and Ardie. Their replacements are okay-ish, but all the little stuff these two do during the game I don’t see them even in the same stratosphere.
@ACT-Crusader said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
We make urgent appointments with the cardiologist.
Funnily enough, some of the local old buggers are thinking of a get-together for the final. One is recently-retired cardiologist....
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@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@Machpants said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
This is the same legacy that foster has been systematically dismantling since his appointment? There are many reasons none of us trust fosters ABs see the fosters first thread
TBF, there were many on here who wanted Shaun Stevenson parachuted into the starting AB 15 as he had all the skills, experience was over-rated and he was the man for the big occasion. (It's the Fern way of things....)
I still stand by lowest ever word ranking and also biggest ever losses against pretty much every Tier 1 side means he has been a disaster for the ABs. I love for us to win the RWC but the shit that has gone on before makes it not worth it.
@Machpants said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@Machpants said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
This is the same legacy that foster has been systematically dismantling since his appointment? There are many reasons none of us trust fosters ABs see the fosters first thread
TBF, there were many on here who wanted Shaun Stevenson parachuted into the starting AB 15 as he had all the skills, experience was over-rated and he was the man for the big occasion. (It's the Fern way of things....)
I still stand by lowest ever word ranking and also biggest ever losses against pretty much every Tier 1 side means he has been a disaster for the ABs. I love for us to win the RWC but the shit that has gone on before makes it not worth it.
I think this is in many ways correct. The All Blacks are different (at least historically) to other countries in that we are dominant all the time, and do well at World Cups. We haven't been like France, South Africa, even Australia, who peak at World Cups, often because players who hadn't been involved across the cycle due to eligibility rules are parachuted in.
Now I don't think we can call Foster a failure if we win the World Cup, but he is also definitely not a failure, and will be deserving of the praise that should come.
The question is, is this the new normal? I think there is probably something in the fact that the current set of All Blacks are not actually better, certainly not markedly better than France, Ireland and South Africa.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@Machpants said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
This is the same legacy that foster has been systematically dismantling since his appointment? There are many reasons none of us trust fosters ABs see the fosters first thread
TBF, there were many on here who wanted Shaun Stevenson parachuted into the starting AB 15 as he had all the skills, experience was over-rated and he was the man for the big occasion. (It's the Fern way of things....)
Well we are yet to see Stevenson at fullback in a test match. One game on the wing when the whole team was changed doesn't answer the question of him as a fullback.
@KiwiMurph said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@Machpants said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
This is the same legacy that foster has been systematically dismantling since his appointment? There are many reasons none of us trust fosters ABs see the fosters first thread
TBF, there were many on here who wanted Shaun Stevenson parachuted into the starting AB 15 as he had all the skills, experience was over-rated and he was the man for the big occasion. (It's the Fern way of things....)
Well we are yet to see Stevenson at fullback in a test match. One game on the wing when the whole team was changed doesn't answer the question of him as a fullback.
Well, that went "Whoosh!", I guess.
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@Dan54 said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@BerniesCorner said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
Come on Foz you got this
Yep Bernie, much more come on the players you got this I think. Foz isn't playing. But understand your point.
It's time to move on.
If we win this it will be our greatest achievement@BerniesCorner said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
If we win this it will be our greatest achievement
One of. Would def. rate with the 1996 SA series and, going into the mists of time, the '77 Lions series.
One game at a time though. (C'mon Foz. You got this)
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It's all hyperbolic bullshit anyway. Damaged the legacy? jog on.
Lost the Bledisloe? No
Lost the Rugby Championship? No
Crashed out of the World Cup early? No"Oh but we lost to Ireland for the first time" they wail. Have Ireland ever been the best team in the world before?
"we lost to France!" well this is the best French team i have ever seen. And we've only played them in France.Has it all been sunshine and blowjobs? No. Losing to Argentina at home still rankles, despite the fact they gat an annual chance at it now. And there have been some very average games. But really, that is just us reverting to the mean. Even this tarnished legacy regime is winning 7 out of 10 times isn't it?
Not a vintage AB period, but the real old guys here will tell you about times we couldn't win games. Fuck, even i remember 1998.
@mariner4life said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
Not a vintage AB period, but the real old guys here will tell you about times we couldn't win games. Fuck, even i remember 1998.
If people think the last 4 years were shit and damaged the legacy, they didn't live thru the '70's...
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@Machpants said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@Machpants said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
This is the same legacy that foster has been systematically dismantling since his appointment? There are many reasons none of us trust fosters ABs see the fosters first thread
TBF, there were many on here who wanted Shaun Stevenson parachuted into the starting AB 15 as he had all the skills, experience was over-rated and he was the man for the big occasion. (It's the Fern way of things....)
I still stand by lowest ever word ranking and also biggest ever losses against pretty much every Tier 1 side means he has been a disaster for the ABs. I love for us to win the RWC but the shit that has gone on before makes it not worth it.
I think this is in many ways correct. The All Blacks are different (at least historically) to other countries in that we are dominant all the time, and do well at World Cups. We haven't been like France, South Africa, even Australia, who peak at World Cups, often because players who hadn't been involved across the cycle due to eligibility rules are parachuted in.
Now I don't think we can call Foster a failure if we win the World Cup, but he is also definitely not a failure, and will be deserving of the praise that should come.
The question is, is this the new normal? I think there is probably something in the fact that the current set of All Blacks are not actually better, certainly not markedly better than France, Ireland and South Africa.
@frugby said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@Machpants said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@Victor-Meldrew said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@Machpants said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
This is the same legacy that foster has been systematically dismantling since his appointment? There are many reasons none of us trust fosters ABs see the fosters first thread
TBF, there were many on here who wanted Shaun Stevenson parachuted into the starting AB 15 as he had all the skills, experience was over-rated and he was the man for the big occasion. (It's the Fern way of things....)
I still stand by lowest ever word ranking and also biggest ever losses against pretty much every Tier 1 side means he has been a disaster for the ABs. I love for us to win the RWC but the shit that has gone on before makes it not worth it.
I think this is in many ways correct. The All Blacks are different (at least historically) to other countries in that we are dominant all the time, and do well at World Cups. We haven't been like France, South Africa, even Australia, who peak at World Cups, often because players who hadn't been involved across the cycle due to eligibility rules are parachuted in.
Now I don't think we can call Foster a failure if we win the World Cup, but he is also definitely not a failure, and will be deserving of the praise that should come.
The question is, is this the new normal? I think there is probably something in the fact that the current set of All Blacks are not actually better, certainly not markedly better than France, Ireland and South Africa.
I think this probably is closer to normal now, I know we all toss off that ABs have generally been on top or thereabouts all the time, but have a look, so historically are our U20s. The rest of the world has caught up, I thought they would earlier when game went pro, but it is happening.
Would I rather have it where we have to fight more for wins or have it like it was in days when we turned up and basically beat most teams uo like the late 80S, I will have us having to be at top of our game to win, it's a lot more satisfying.
