All Blacks vs Argentina I
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Midfield? There are shiploads!
The two first choice. ALB is basically a veteran. Havili played the while world cup cycle. That's two very experienced players in each spot.
Then the next guy they chose had his knee wrecked. Ennor got a few games as well. And the other Crusaders guy who kept getting hurt. That's 6-8 guys getting tests in 2 spots.
The fucking revisionism on here needs to be seen to be believed at times.
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Are we really saying that Havili is an option at centre? He's a pretty marginal choice at 2nd-5.
Ennor got a eight games under Foster, most of them minor nations or as reserve. McLeod got one game. One.
Tupea I'll grant might have got a few more games, but for his injury. Although that's not necessarily a given as Foster got more conservative over time.
In reality we have at centre two experienced players, and then only very much noobs and one guy (Ennor) who has a bit of experience.
It's a little bit better at 2nd-5, but only a little bit, because our play got significantly better when the third of the experienced players was replaced.
So I don't get where you think we have lots of experience in the centres. Currently t's Ioane, Barrett, ALB and noobs, with the possible addition of Ennor if he gets back into form.
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Are we really saying that Havili is an option at centre? He's a pretty marginal choice at 2nd-5.
Ennor got a eight games under Foster, most of them minor nations or as reserve. McLeod got one game. One.
Tupea I'll grant might have got a few more games, but for his injury. Although that's not necessarily a given as Foster got more conservative over time.
In reality we have at centre two experienced players, and then only very much noobs and one guy (Ennor) who has a bit of experience.
It's a little bit better at 2nd-5, but only a little bit, because our play got significantly better when the third of the experienced players was replaced.
So I don't get where you think we have lots of experience in the centres. Currently t's Ioane, Barrett, ALB and noobs, with the possible addition of Ennor if he gets back into form.
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Are we really saying that Havili is an option at centre?
Certainly. Like I am an option. At my age, speed, skill and strength probably not a candidate for discussion of best ever... But still an option.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
At some point we have to stop being conservative. It's not Razor's fault that Foster didn't want to try any new players, but it is his responsibility to deal with the problem.
At some point we have to stop using Foster as an excuse.
Why is he being expected to try new players for Razor?
Who are these new players he should have tried for Razor?
I'm not using Foster as an excuse, because there is a very simple solution -- blood some new players. If he doesn't do that, it is on him, and him only.
He has been given a decent squad -- right up until injury strikes. He isn't responsible for that, it's the deal he got given.
But if we go the route of the original post that started this, that situation will get worse and worse.
As for who might have been tried, well I don't really want to get into that to specifically, because it opens a whole can of worms about provincial favourites, and derails my argument. If I name anyone, it will just go off on a tangent about that person. We could frame the question the other way -- if Foster did select and play lots of players, why are we so thin in experienced centres? (Chosen because, unlike lock, there have been no retirements).
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
At some point we have to stop being conservative. It's not Razor's fault that Foster didn't want to try any new players, but it is his responsibility to deal with the problem.
At some point we have to stop using Foster as an excuse.
Why is he being expected to try new players for Razor?
Who are these new players he should have tried for Razor?
I'm not using Foster as an excuse, because there is a very simple solution -- blood some new players. If he doesn't do that, it is on him, and him only.
He has been given a decent squad -- right up until injury strikes. He isn't responsible for that, it's the deal he got given.
But if we go the route of the original post that started this, that situation will get worse and worse.
As for who might have been tried, well I don't really want to get into that to specifically, because it opens a whole can of worms about provincial favourites, and derails my argument. If I name anyone, it will just go off on a tangent about that person. We could frame the question the other way -- if Foster did select and play lots of players, why are we so thin in experienced centres? (Chosen because, unlike lock, there have been no retirements).
For someone claiming to not be using Foster as an excuse the bold is weird. Yes Razor is responsible, he chose his squad, it wasn't given to him and he didn't have to pick the players he has.
Your comments on experienced centres makes no sense. If some other random player is picked at centre then it means that another one gets less experience. Also, lets look at a guy like Proctor. He's been a 7 year project at the Canes, and only really this year has he been in pick me form for the ABs. Was Foster supposed to pick him for development ... for the next guy?
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@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Are we really saying that Havili is an option at centre?
Certainly. Like I am an option. At my age, speed, skill and strength probably not a candidate for discussion of best ever... But still an option.
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Are we really saying that Havili is an option at centre?
Certainly. Like I am an option. At my age, speed, skill and strength probably not a candidate for discussion of best ever... But still an option.
Are you good on both sides of the ball though ? That might get you up the pecking order
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@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Are we really saying that Havili is an option at centre?
Certainly. Like I am an option. At my age, speed, skill and strength probably not a candidate for discussion of best ever... But still an option.
Are you good on both sides of the ball though ? That might get you up the pecking order
@MN5 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Are we really saying that Havili is an option at centre?
Certainly. Like I am an option. At my age, speed, skill and strength probably not a candidate for discussion of best ever... But still an option.
Are you good on both sides of the ball though ? That might get you up the pecking order
Or if you look good in red 🪝
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@Chester-Draws you are reaching a bit now with the anti Fozzie stuff. Havili, McLeod, Ennor and Tupea were the next best midfielders, all given chances, and all were found to not be test standard. That's very unlikely to change regardless of who coaches the ABs. What was Fozzie meant to do? Keep selecting the "next best" in the line and hope someone magically goes well? The ABs is not a development side.
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@Chester-Draws you are reaching a bit now with the anti Fozzie stuff. Havili, McLeod, Ennor and Tupea were the next best midfielders, all given chances, and all were found to not be test standard. That's very unlikely to change regardless of who coaches the ABs. What was Fozzie meant to do? Keep selecting the "next best" in the line and hope someone magically goes well? The ABs is not a development side.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws you are reaching a bit now with the anti Fozzie stuff. Havili, McLeod, Ennor and Tupea were the next best midfielders, all given chances, and all were found to not be test standard. That's very unlikely to change regardless of who coaches the ABs. What was Fozzie meant to do? Keep selecting the "next best" in the line and hope someone magically goes well? The ABs is not a development side.
Now that they have been found wanting, why are we going backwards? I know, he's Razor's boy
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@Chester-Draws you are reaching a bit now with the anti Fozzie stuff. Havili, McLeod, Ennor and Tupea were the next best midfielders, all given chances, and all were found to not be test standard. That's very unlikely to change regardless of who coaches the ABs. What was Fozzie meant to do? Keep selecting the "next best" in the line and hope someone magically goes well? The ABs is not a development side.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws you are reaching a bit now with the anti Fozzie stuff. Havili, McLeod, Ennor and Tupea were the next best midfielders, all given chances, and all were found to not be test standard. That's very unlikely to change regardless of who coaches the ABs. What was Fozzie meant to do? Keep selecting the "next best" in the line and hope someone magically goes well? The ABs is not a development side.
Coaches get bagged for rotating too much and not playing their best team to develop combinations as well ,
I can actually remember that criticism of the midfield before they settled on Jordie Reiko ,
You cant win sometimes
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Are we really saying that Havili is an option at centre? He's a pretty marginal choice at 2nd-5.
Ennor got a eight games under Foster, most of them minor nations or as reserve. McLeod got one game. One.
Tupea I'll grant might have got a few more games, but for his injury. Although that's not necessarily a given as Foster got more conservative over time.
In reality we have at centre two experienced players, and then only very much noobs and one guy (Ennor) who has a bit of experience.
It's a little bit better at 2nd-5, but only a little bit, because our play got significantly better when the third of the experienced players was replaced.
So I don't get where you think we have lots of experience in the centres. Currently t's Ioane, Barrett, ALB and noobs, with the possible addition of Ennor if he gets back into form.
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
So I don't get where you think we have lots of experience in the centres. Currently t's Ioane, Barrett, ALB and noobs, with the possible addition of Ennor if he gets back into form.
You've once again missed Tupaea who can cover 12 and 13 and has more experience than Ennor.
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@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
So I don't get where you think we have lots of experience in the centres. Currently t's Ioane, Barrett, ALB and noobs, with the possible addition of Ennor if he gets back into form.
You've once again missed Tupaea who can cover 12 and 13 and has more experience than Ennor.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
So I don't get where you think we have lots of experience in the centres. Currently t's Ioane, Barrett, ALB and noobs, with the possible addition of Ennor if he gets back into form.
You've once again missed Tupaea who can cover 12 and 13 and has more experience than Ennor.
And Charlie Ngatai. He's only 33.
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There's a bit of irony in the fact that David Havili was a very good fullback for the Crusaders and was effectively forced to switch to the midfield. He was admittedly able to get a decent number of caps for the All Blacks at 12 but now, a few years on, he'd probably be in a better position if he'd stayed at fullback. Will Jordan is obviously a gun but does he have the kicking game and game management (arguably two of Havili's strengths) to play there for the All Blacks? Foster didn't think so. We'll know soon enough what Robertson thinks. Havili at his peak was a better fullback than Perofeta and probably Love (though both players still have plenty of time to improve, especially Love).
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There's a bit of irony in the fact that David Havili was a very good fullback for the Crusaders and was effectively forced to switch to the midfield. He was admittedly able to get a decent number of caps for the All Blacks at 12 but now, a few years on, he'd probably be in a better position if he'd stayed at fullback. Will Jordan is obviously a gun but does he have the kicking game and game management (arguably two of Havili's strengths) to play there for the All Blacks? Foster didn't think so. We'll know soon enough what Robertson thinks. Havili at his peak was a better fullback than Perofeta and probably Love (though both players still have plenty of time to improve, especially Love).
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
We'll know soon enough what Robertson thinks
Robertson was asked earlier this week and said he sees Jordan as a fullback who can cover wing. Which aligns with how he selected the Crusaders.
It will be interesting how Jordan combines with DMac.
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
We'll know soon enough what Robertson thinks
Robertson was asked earlier this week and said he sees Jordan as a fullback who can cover wing. Which aligns with how he selected the Crusaders.
It will be interesting how Jordan combines with DMac.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Robertson was asked earlier this week and said he sees Jordan as a fullback who can cover wing. Which aligns with how he selected the Crusaders.
So that means we currently have four fullbacks - Perofeta, Barrett, Love, and Jordan.
They should have picked Plummer to develop a second first-five because going back to Barrett is total back to the future vibes.
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four fullbacks
four hybrid opensidesthis is certainly some recipe. i can't wait to see what the master plan is
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
So I don't get where you think we have lots of experience in the centres. Currently t's Ioane, Barrett, ALB and noobs, with the possible addition of Ennor if he gets back into form.
You've once again missed Tupaea who can cover 12 and 13 and has more experience than Ennor.
And Charlie Ngatai. He's only 33.
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
And Charlie Ngatai. He's only 33.
Easter already?
Then I raise a Bryce Heem. -
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
We'll know soon enough what Robertson thinks
Robertson was asked earlier this week and said he sees Jordan as a fullback who can cover wing. Which aligns with how he selected the Crusaders.
It will be interesting how Jordan combines with DMac.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
We'll know soon enough what Robertson thinks
Robertson was asked earlier this week and said he sees Jordan as a fullback who can cover wing. Which aligns with how he selected the Crusaders.
It will be interesting how Jordan combines with DMac.
Sure, but BB has been named as a 10 and has exclusively been used at fullback so there are no guarantees.
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@Chester-Draws you are reaching a bit now with the anti Fozzie stuff. Havili, McLeod, Ennor and Tupea were the next best midfielders, all given chances, and all were found to not be test standard. That's very unlikely to change regardless of who coaches the ABs. What was Fozzie meant to do? Keep selecting the "next best" in the line and hope someone magically goes well? The ABs is not a development side.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws you are reaching a bit now with the anti Fozzie stuff. Havili, McLeod, Ennor and Tupea were the next best midfielders, all given chances, and all were found to not be test standard. That's very unlikely to change regardless of who coaches the ABs. What was Fozzie meant to do? Keep selecting the "next best" in the line and hope someone magically goes well? The ABs is not a development side.
I actually think it is. It’s pretty hard to develop a test level player from just Super rugby (separate conversation about quality of the super rugby competition). Players need time at test level for the coaches to know if they are actually test level.
For fans it’s pretty simple:
“He just needs time/opportunity” - means player didn’t set the world on fire but I like him and think he’s an AB.“He’s not up to it” - means player didn’t set the world on fire but I think someone else should be there.
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yeah i have made the point before that only the very very best arrive looking to the manor born. The vast majority need time, and consistent time, to work it out.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws you are reaching a bit now with the anti Fozzie stuff. Havili, McLeod, Ennor and Tupea were the next best midfielders, all given chances, and all were found to not be test standard. That's very unlikely to change regardless of who coaches the ABs. What was Fozzie meant to do? Keep selecting the "next best" in the line and hope someone magically goes well? The ABs is not a development side.
I actually think it is. It’s pretty hard to develop a test level player from just Super rugby (separate conversation about quality of the super rugby competition). Players need time at test level for the coaches to know if they are actually test level.
For fans it’s pretty simple:
“He just needs time/opportunity” - means player didn’t set the world on fire but I like him and think he’s an AB.“He’s not up to it” - means player didn’t set the world on fire but I think someone else should be there.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws you are reaching a bit now with the anti Fozzie stuff. Havili, McLeod, Ennor and Tupea were the next best midfielders, all given chances, and all were found to not be test standard. That's very unlikely to change regardless of who coaches the ABs. What was Fozzie meant to do? Keep selecting the "next best" in the line and hope someone magically goes well? The ABs is not a development side.
I actually think it is. It’s pretty hard to develop a test level player from just Super rugby (separate conversation about quality of the super rugby competition). Players need time at test level for the coaches to know if they are actually test level.
There are development sides and development sides though i.e. George Bell vs Billy Proctor.
