All Blacks v Argentina II
-
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@LatsToTheMax or remain too upright knowing it's likely you're going to get a good shot on the other bloke's cheek/chin with the top of your head and make it look "accidental".
He's half his effing body height when he hits the bloke in his ribs and shoulder. Do you want Aumua to drop to his knees? There is absolutely nothing wrong with his tackle. The laws are flawed. How in the hell you think he intentionally clobbered him in the head is ridiculous is mind boggling.
In fact, if you watch the video again, Aumua is shouldered right in the chest.
-
@LatsToTheMax I didn't say he intentionally "clobbered" him.
But yeah, half his body height he is, I never even realised Aumua was close to 3m tall. Fuck knows why he's not being looked at for the second row.
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@LatsToTheMax I didn't say he intentionally "clobbered" him.
But yeah, half his body height he is, I never even realised Aumua was close to 3m tall. Fuck knows why he's not being looked at for the second row.
It was implied with your "..."
-
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
There's also a lot to be said for having multiple genuine try scoring threats on the park, which is why I liked this team as Rieko, Clarke and Jordan can all score tries out of nowhere if the defense is not 100% on their game. For me, Rieko has to be on the field, and he's played well enough at 13 to be the incumbent there, with the added bonus of the constant threat he poses defenses.
This is only true if he was posing a constant threat. But right now he's not.
He has consistently been our most ineffective back on attack this year.
I genuinely think people may be surprised how quickly Rieko may be usurped as starting center soon. It would not surprise me to see ALB as the starting midfielder in South Africa.
You only have to look at what Robertson has said and done recently.
When asked why he brought Rieko back for the last test he commented along the lines "..he gets an opportunity now".
You don't say that for a first team guaranteed starter. You say that for players currently in direct competition fighting for a spot.
Even after the game he commented how he was happy they got some time to look at Rieko on the left wing.
Speculation here, but looks like they want to find a way to keep him in the team or get some performance out of him again. Perhaps are thinking going back to wing may do it as he's not doing enough at center currently.
@kpkanz I am not opposed to Rieko playing on the wing, and moving him there in the final 20 is not the worst idea to give him more space when defenses are tiring. The fact he can play both centre and wing to such a high level makes him an extremely valuable player. I honestly don't know what this coaching group will do though, but they really should be able to take a player like Rieko and make the most of his talents, they aren't really worth their salt as coaches if they can't.
I also think ALBs form is being a bit overstated. It's great to see him playing well again after a string of injuries, but his best game was against a very poor Fijian team that any of our backs were going to look great against. He's a fantastic bench option as he an cover 12 and 13 to a high level, but I don't think he's demanding a starting spot just yet.
-
@kpkanz I am not opposed to Rieko playing on the wing, and moving him there in the final 20 is not the worst idea to give him more space when defenses are tiring. The fact he can play both centre and wing to such a high level makes him an extremely valuable player. I honestly don't know what this coaching group will do though, but they really should be able to take a player like Rieko and make the most of his talents, they aren't really worth their salt as coaches if they can't.
I also think ALBs form is being a bit overstated. It's great to see him playing well again after a string of injuries, but his best game was against a very poor Fijian team that any of our backs were going to look great against. He's a fantastic bench option as he an cover 12 and 13 to a high level, but I don't think he's demanding a starting spot just yet.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I also think ALBs form is being a bit overstated. It's great to see him playing well again after a string of injuries, but his best game was against a very poor Fijian team that any of our backs were going to look great against.
ALB was up there with Havili as one of the most overrated players in NZ for me, at least of the Fozzie years, 2020-2023.
This year was honestly the first time he's had a great Super Rugby season since 2019, he's been a bit of a passive passenger and non attacking presence at All Black level since his peak years of 2016-2019. Injuries played it's part and impacted on consistency.
I still think he's lived far too much off his 2016-2019 reputation in the media, because he never really kicked on post-Hansen years and he's currently 29.
-
@kpkanz I am not opposed to Rieko playing on the wing, and moving him there in the final 20 is not the worst idea to give him more space when defenses are tiring. The fact he can play both centre and wing to such a high level makes him an extremely valuable player. I honestly don't know what this coaching group will do though, but they really should be able to take a player like Rieko and make the most of his talents, they aren't really worth their salt as coaches if they can't.
I also think ALBs form is being a bit overstated. It's great to see him playing well again after a string of injuries, but his best game was against a very poor Fijian team that any of our backs were going to look great against. He's a fantastic bench option as he an cover 12 and 13 to a high level, but I don't think he's demanding a starting spot just yet.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@kpkanz I am not opposed to Rieko playing on the wing, and moving him there in the final 20 is not the worst idea to give him more space when defenses are tiring. The fact he can play both centre and wing to such a high level makes him an extremely valuable player. I honestly don't know what this coaching group will do though, but they really should be able to take a player like Rieko and make the most of his talents, they aren't really worth their salt as coaches if they can't.
A game against SA with Proctor on the bench could be an opportunity to give him time against a Tier 1 opponent.
Then perhaps an entire game against Oz.
That should give us a clear indication of relative strengths and our depth.
-
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
There's also a lot to be said for having multiple genuine try scoring threats on the park, which is why I liked this team as Rieko, Clarke and Jordan can all score tries out of nowhere if the defense is not 100% on their game. For me, Rieko has to be on the field, and he's played well enough at 13 to be the incumbent there, with the added bonus of the constant threat he poses defenses.
This is only true if he was posing a constant threat. But right now he's not.
He has consistently been our most ineffective back on attack this year.
I genuinely think people may be surprised how quickly Rieko may be usurped as starting center soon. It would not surprise me to see ALB as the starting midfielder in South Africa.
You only have to look at what Robertson has said and done recently.
When asked why he brought Rieko back for the last test he commented along the lines "..he gets an opportunity now".
You don't say that for a first team guaranteed starter. You say that for players currently in direct competition fighting for a spot.
Even after the game he commented how he was happy they got some time to look at Rieko on the left wing.
Speculation here, but looks like they want to find a way to keep him in the team or get some performance out of him again. Perhaps are thinking going back to wing may do it as he's not doing enough at center currently.
I believe Razor will be circumspect of experimentation after the first loss this year against Argentina. You can tell that hurt a lot.
He brings back the experienced guy in the midfield and suddenly the defense is a lot more organised and we're completing 92% of our tackles.
-
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I also think ALBs form is being a bit overstated. It's great to see him playing well again after a string of injuries, but his best game was against a very poor Fijian team that any of our backs were going to look great against.
ALB was up there with Havili as one of the most overrated players in NZ for me, at least of the Fozzie years, 2020-2023.
This year was honestly the first time he's had a great Super Rugby season since 2019, he's been a bit of a passive passenger and non attacking presence at All Black level since his peak years of 2016-2019. Injuries played it's part and impacted on consistency.
I still think he's lived far too much off his 2016-2019 reputation in the media, because he never really kicked on post-Hansen years and he's currently 29.
Your assessment of ALB is unfortunately accurate.
I do think its important to consider that ALB was primarily at 12 during the Hansen era and Foster moved him to 13 after Razor had been playing Goodhue at 12. He also struggled with injury a lot during the Foster era which makes it difficult to get any momentum.
That said I agree with others that he struggles for pace and physicality against the big teams.
Its possible that could be the same case for Proctor who also gets injured a lot.
The thing with Rieko is he's very durable and he isn't going to struggle against anyone for size or pace.
-
Your assessment of ALB is unfortunately accurate.
I do think its important to consider that ALB was primarily at 12 during the Hansen era and Foster moved him to 13 after Razor had been playing Goodhue at 12. He also struggled with injury a lot during the Foster era which makes it difficult to get any momentum.
That said I agree with others that he struggles for pace and physicality against the big teams.
Its possible that could be the same case for Proctor who also gets injured a lot.
The thing with Rieko is he's very durable and he isn't going to struggle against anyone for size or pace.
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Your assessment of ALB is unfortunately accurate.
I do think its important to consider that ALB was primarily at 12 during the Hansen era and Foster moved him to 13 after Razor had been playing Goodhue at 12. He also struggled with injury a lot during the Foster era which makes it difficult to get any momentum.
That said I agree with others that he struggles for pace and physicality against the big teams.
Its possible that could be the same case for Proctor who also gets injured a lot.
The thing with Rieko is he's very durable and he isn't going to struggle against anyone for size or pace.
Proctor doesn't get injured alot, I don't recall him being injured in the last two seasons apart from when he hurt his ribs in the semi final against the Chiefs. The Umaga-Jensen twins on the other hand.
-
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I also think ALBs form is being a bit overstated. It's great to see him playing well again after a string of injuries, but his best game was against a very poor Fijian team that any of our backs were going to look great against.
ALB was up there with Havili as one of the most overrated players in NZ for me, at least of the Fozzie years, 2020-2023.
This year was honestly the first time he's had a great Super Rugby season since 2019, he's been a bit of a passive passenger and non attacking presence at All Black level since his peak years of 2016-2019. Injuries played it's part and impacted on consistency.
I still think he's lived far too much off his 2016-2019 reputation in the media, because he never really kicked on post-Hansen years and he's currently 29.
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I also think ALBs form is being a bit overstated. It's great to see him playing well again after a string of injuries, but his best game was against a very poor Fijian team that any of our backs were going to look great against.
ALB was up there with Havili as one of the most overrated players in NZ for me, at least of the Fozzie years, 2020-2023.
This year was honestly the first time he's had a great Super Rugby season since 2019, he's been a bit of a passive passenger and non attacking presence at All Black level since his peak years of 2016-2019. Injuries played it's part and impacted on consistency.
I still think he's lived far too much off his 2016-2019 reputation in the media, because he never really kicked on post-Hansen years and he's currently 29.
Couldn't agree more. He's always been a handy test player rather than a game breaker . He never really makes an impact off the bench either.
-
I only have the eye test, but I remain unconvinced that ALB has the wheels or the physicality to foot it with the stronger teams. Rieko has his negatives, but he has X factor has shown he can do most of his core jobs reasonably well at 13
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I only have the eye test, but I remain unconvinced that ALB has the wheels or the physicality to foot it with the stronger teams. Rieko has his negatives, but he has X factor has shown he can do most of his core jobs reasonably well at 13
Does he? For me he is fairly predictable in a very good way insofar that he does the basics well and is dependable.
I still think he is a better winger than midfielder but I thought the same about Umaga as well and they persisted with him in the midfield.
Ioane has now played started as many tests at centre (32) as he has on the wing (30), an in those 32 tests I don’t think we have fully unleashed him as the centre we want/think he is due to a combination of factors IMO. No doubt he has had some good games but rewind to when he was on the wing and he was using his skills to great effect.
-
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@LatsToTheMax I didn't say he intentionally "clobbered" him.
But yeah, half his body height he is, I never even realised Aumua was close to 3m tall. Fuck knows why he's not being looked at for the second row.
It was implied with your "..."
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@LatsToTheMax I didn't say he intentionally "clobbered" him.
But yeah, half his body height he is, I never even realised Aumua was close to 3m tall. Fuck knows why he's not being looked at for the second row.
It was implied with your "..."
Nah I was adding to your foul play examples, not talking about Aumua.
-
Your assessment of ALB is unfortunately accurate.
I do think its important to consider that ALB was primarily at 12 during the Hansen era and Foster moved him to 13 after Razor had been playing Goodhue at 12. He also struggled with injury a lot during the Foster era which makes it difficult to get any momentum.
That said I agree with others that he struggles for pace and physicality against the big teams.
Its possible that could be the same case for Proctor who also gets injured a lot.
The thing with Rieko is he's very durable and he isn't going to struggle against anyone for size or pace.
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Your assessment of ALB is unfortunately accurate.
I do think its important to consider that ALB was primarily at 12 during the Hansen era and Foster moved him to 13 after Razor had been playing Goodhue at 12. He also struggled with injury a lot during the Foster era which makes it difficult to get any momentum.
That said I agree with others that he struggles for pace and physicality against the big teams.
Its possible that could be the same case for Proctor who also gets injured a lot.
The thing with Rieko is he's very durable and he isn't going to struggle against anyone for size or pace.
ALB was at 13 for the Chiefs and 12 for the ABs with RCro the opposite if I recall. Not sure why Hansen did that. But then again, late 2016- Hansen made a lot of calls that didn't make sense.
-
Your assessment of ALB is unfortunately accurate.
I do think its important to consider that ALB was primarily at 12 during the Hansen era and Foster moved him to 13 after Razor had been playing Goodhue at 12. He also struggled with injury a lot during the Foster era which makes it difficult to get any momentum.
That said I agree with others that he struggles for pace and physicality against the big teams.
Its possible that could be the same case for Proctor who also gets injured a lot.
The thing with Rieko is he's very durable and he isn't going to struggle against anyone for size or pace.
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Your assessment of ALB is unfortunately accurate.
I do think it’s important to consider that ALB was primarily at 12 during the Hansen era and Foster moved him to 13 after Razor had been playing Goodhue at 12. He also struggled with injury a lot during the Foster era which makes it difficult to get any momentum.
The post Nonu/Smith era we saw a merry go round of combinations due to injury, availability, form, exodus.
ALB has been a key feature of that merry go round. But Hansen played him at centre plenty of times and Foster continued it.
- started 11 tests at 2nd 5 - 7 in the Hansen era, 3 in the Foster era, 1 in the Razor era
- started 31 tests at centre - 17 in the Hansen era, 13 in the Foster era, 1 in the Razor era
- come off the bench in 33 tests - 19 in the Hansen era, 11 in the Foster era, 3 in the Razor era
When ALB started at 2nd 5 he partnered with the following players at centre:
- Fekitoa (3)
- Goodhue (4)
- Ioane (2)
- Ennor (1)
- Proctor (1)
When ALB started at centre he partnered with the following players at 2nd 5:
- Crotty (9)
- Laumape (5)
- Havili (7)
- SBW (4)
- Goodhue (4)
- Jordie (2)
When he has come off the bench he has played a mix of both midfield positions and even on the wing.
-
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I also think ALBs form is being a bit overstated. It's great to see him playing well again after a string of injuries, but his best game was against a very poor Fijian team that any of our backs were going to look great against.
ALB was up there with Havili as one of the most overrated players in NZ for me, at least of the Fozzie years, 2020-2023.
This year was honestly the first time he's had a great Super Rugby season since 2019, he's been a bit of a passive passenger and non attacking presence at All Black level since his peak years of 2016-2019. Injuries played it's part and impacted on consistency.
I still think he's lived far too much off his 2016-2019 reputation in the media, because he never really kicked on post-Hansen years and he's currently 29.
Couldn't agree more. He's always been a handy test player rather than a game breaker . He never really makes an impact off the bench either.
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Couldn't agree more. He's always been a handy test player rather than a game breaker . He never really makes an impact off the bench either.
Never really makes an impact, come on bro, surely you watched the RWC QF against Ireland. His impact late in the game was massive.
https://www.facebook.com/share/r/7V9r8idGSrkBGsiU/?mibextid=UalRPS
Some fun facts also, in the 33 tests he has come off the bench the ABs are
Wins - 26
Draws - 3
Losses - 4 -
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Couldn't agree more. He's always been a handy test player rather than a game breaker . He never really makes an impact off the bench either.
Never really makes an impact, come on bro, surely you watched the RWC QF against Ireland. His impact late in the game was massive.
https://www.facebook.com/share/r/7V9r8idGSrkBGsiU/?mibextid=UalRPS
Some fun facts also, in the 33 tests he has come off the bench the ABs are
Wins - 26
Draws - 3
Losses - 4@ACT-Crusader Top work there!
-
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Couldn't agree more. He's always been a handy test player rather than a game breaker . He never really makes an impact off the bench either.
Never really makes an impact, come on bro, surely you watched the RWC QF against Ireland. His impact late in the game was massive.
https://www.facebook.com/share/r/7V9r8idGSrkBGsiU/?mibextid=UalRPS
Some fun facts also, in the 33 tests he has come off the bench the ABs are
Wins - 26
Draws - 3
Losses - 4@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Couldn't agree more. He's always been a handy test player rather than a game breaker . He never really makes an impact off the bench either.
Never really makes an impact, come on bro, surely you watched the RWC QF against Ireland. His impact late in the game was massive.
https://www.facebook.com/share/r/7V9r8idGSrkBGsiU/?mibextid=UalRPS
Some fun facts also, in the 33 tests he has come off the bench the ABs are
Wins - 26
Draws - 3
Losses - 4Many bench appearances in 2020s, during which AB win performance c. 71%. Excluding gimmes falls to 63.4%, if my figures correct.
-
Rewatched Q3. Excellent try at beginning of half. Seven replacements 51 - 54.
Papali'i a tackling machine -- at one stage three in a minute!
Noticeable that ABs after try became sloppy. Five or so errors which kept dissapating pressure over course of rest of quarter.
-
Rewatched Q3. Excellent try at beginning of half. Seven replacements 51 - 54.
Papali'i a tackling machine -- at one stage three in a minute!
Noticeable that ABs after try became sloppy. Five or so errors which kept dissapating pressure over course of rest of quarter.
-
Q4.
ABs should be shot for not scoring from 5m out at 69.
First a smart arsed short throw, and then backs couldn’t manage draw and pass to go over. Ended up with Pumas scoring at other end near sticks.
My other takeaway was BB at 10 and WJ at 15 made mainly poor decisions. Big step down from DMac/BB.
