All Blacks v Argentina II
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@Jet said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
just to say that maybe we dont have a vintage batch of loose forwards knocking around.
I think this is the key. We have a bunch of loose forwards similar to what Razor was a player actually - solid depth/placeholder loosies - but in no danger of pushing for a world XV.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Jet said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
just to say that maybe we dont have a vintage batch of loose forwards knocking around.
I think this is the key. We have a bunch of loose forwards similar to what Razor was a player actually - solid depth/placeholder loosies - but in no danger of pushing for a world XV.
That's interesting, it could well be that we just don't have the best players.
While that may be the foremost reason, my current opinion is that we don't have the players we can select playing as a team as well as they can be. -
@Canes4life would be awesome to see him get a shot.
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Canes4life would be awesome to see him get a shot.
Maybe he will in preference to Lord
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@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Canes4life would be awesome to see him get a shot.
Maybe he will in preference to Lord
@Winger said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Canes4life would be awesome to see him get a shot.
Maybe he will in preference to Lord
With my current trust issues, I won't bat an eyelid if he replaces Darry.
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@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
The Crusaders have some shocking losses sprinkled through Razor's reign, but they were all forgotten as his teams had a very good habit of winning all of their finals, so he never really found out.
Perhaps you should just be thankful he actually won his finals games (17/17) and none of them fell under the shocking losses category (like Foster's all-time Super Rugby finals record 17-62 loss in 2009).
Razor coached 118 games in SR and you're telling us his team's not allowed a few shockers? In top level sport it's simply a matter of probability, like it's inevitable to have a few shockers especially if like Razor you are coaching the same club for 7 years.
btw he lost 16 games in total, 6 to Chiefs, 4 to Canes, 2 to Tahs, 2 to Landers, 1 to Blues, 1 to Drua.
I think in your eagerness to jump to Razor's defence you've missed the wider point
In a comp like Super Rugby you can afford to drop a few games as long as you come right at the business end
In test rugby every week is like a playoff.
Crusaders lost 4 games last year. Didn't matter.
If the ABs lose 4 games in a season there are alarm bells ringing (I know the season isn't the same number of games but you get the point).
I get the point, it doesn't seem a relevant criticism for Razor, he is after all the most successful coach in the history of NZ domestic rugby.
Seems a bit strange to expect every All Black coach to come into the job with a near perfect record at previous levels.
Henry for example had a more stacked Blues side than anything Razor had between 2017-23 and had a lower winning record (80%) than Razor (84%) lost finals games that Blues were favourites for.
You've got that back to front, it's not a criticism of Razor. The point relating to him is that he's never faced this type of pressure before as he had such a dream run in Super, so it will be interesting to see how he and the ABs respond this week, both selection wise and how we perform on the field.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
The Crusaders have some shocking losses sprinkled through Razor's reign, but they were all forgotten as his teams had a very good habit of winning all of their finals, so he never really found out.
Perhaps you should just be thankful he actually won his finals games (17/17) and none of them fell under the shocking losses category (like Foster's all-time Super Rugby finals record 17-62 loss in 2009).
Razor coached 118 games in SR and you're telling us his team's not allowed a few shockers? In top level sport it's simply a matter of probability, like it's inevitable to have a few shockers especially if like Razor you are coaching the same club for 7 years.
btw he lost 16 games in total, 6 to Chiefs, 4 to Canes, 2 to Tahs, 2 to Landers, 1 to Blues, 1 to Drua.
I think in your eagerness to jump to Razor's defence you've missed the wider point
In a comp like Super Rugby you can afford to drop a few games as long as you come right at the business end
In test rugby every week is like a playoff.
Crusaders lost 4 games last year. Didn't matter.
If the ABs lose 4 games in a season there are alarm bells ringing (I know the season isn't the same number of games but you get the point).
I get the point, it doesn't seem a relevant criticism for Razor, he is after all the most successful coach in the history of NZ domestic rugby.
Seems a bit strange to expect every All Black coach to come into the job with a near perfect record at previous levels.
Henry for example had a more stacked Blues side than anything Razor had between 2017-23 and had a lower winning record (80%) than Razor (84%) lost finals games that Blues were favourites for.
You've got that back to front, it's not a criticism of Razor. The point relating to him is that he's never faced this type of pressure before as he had such a dream run in Super, so it will be interesting to see how he and the ABs respond this week, both selection wise and how we perform on the field.
So if Razor had worse credentials would you be calling for him to be the ABs coach?
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
The Crusaders have some shocking losses sprinkled through Razor's reign, but they were all forgotten as his teams had a very good habit of winning all of their finals, so he never really found out.
Perhaps you should just be thankful he actually won his finals games (17/17) and none of them fell under the shocking losses category (like Foster's all-time Super Rugby finals record 17-62 loss in 2009).
Razor coached 118 games in SR and you're telling us his team's not allowed a few shockers? In top level sport it's simply a matter of probability, like it's inevitable to have a few shockers especially if like Razor you are coaching the same club for 7 years.
btw he lost 16 games in total, 6 to Chiefs, 4 to Canes, 2 to Tahs, 2 to Landers, 1 to Blues, 1 to Drua.
I think in your eagerness to jump to Razor's defence you've missed the wider point
In a comp like Super Rugby you can afford to drop a few games as long as you come right at the business end
In test rugby every week is like a playoff.
Crusaders lost 4 games last year. Didn't matter.
If the ABs lose 4 games in a season there are alarm bells ringing (I know the season isn't the same number of games but you get the point).
I get the point, it doesn't seem a relevant criticism for Razor, he is after all the most successful coach in the history of NZ domestic rugby.
Seems a bit strange to expect every All Black coach to come into the job with a near perfect record at previous levels.
Henry for example had a more stacked Blues side than anything Razor had between 2017-23 and had a lower winning record (80%) than Razor (84%) lost finals games that Blues were favourites for.
You've got that back to front, it's not a criticism of Razor. The point relating to him is that he's never faced this type of pressure before as he had such a dream run in Super, so it will be interesting to see how he and the ABs respond this week, both selection wise and how we perform on the field.
So if Razor had worse credentials would you be calling for him to be the ABs coach?
@LatsToTheMax can't do much worse than losing games against lower table teams with a side so good they won 7 championships in a row.
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@Jet said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Can I ask what you'd like Paps to do here?
Run in field as fast as possible?
I'm a bit lost - it's been a while since I played, but even then we had attack patterns and if you were last man out you didn't bolt infield just because you were a loosie.
upfield. not infield.
Following the play to the next breakdown.
It's not Remember the Titans mate, he can't clear a path for Dmac.
@gt12 said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Jet said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Can I ask what you'd like Paps to do here?
Run in field as fast as possible?
I'm a bit lost - it's been a while since I played, but even then we had attack patterns and if you were last man out you didn't bolt infield just because you were a loosie.
upfield. not infield.
Following the play to the next breakdown.
It's not Remember the Titans mate, he can't clear a path for Dmac.
What part of "following the play to the next breakdown" implies running blocking lines for a ball carrier?
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NZ talk starts from 40 minutes onwards.
Interesting point about "incumbents" racking up loads of tests to the detriment of the collective. That rotating the odd bloke in and out lets them "sweat in the jersey".
They have a playful pop at the breakdown panel too :face_with_tears_of_joy:
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Following rewatch, not sure I'd change the starting pack. Maybe switch EDG and Ofa to provide more set piece punch off bench.
Ratima and Clarke to start. Reece out, and TJS bench. Lots of permuations between Jordie/ALB/Rieko/Beaudy/ Eel and Will. Hard to pick starters versus bench.
Newell/Other Ofa/EDG/Aumua/Cane/ANother for forwards bench.
ANother could be Finau/IWL or Lord, but highly reluctant to end up with Vaa'i and him locking at end.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Jet said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
just to say that maybe we dont have a vintage batch of loose forwards knocking around.
I think this is the key. We have a bunch of loose forwards similar to what Razor was a player actually - solid depth/placeholder loosies - but in no danger of pushing for a world XV.
That's interesting, it could well be that we just don't have the best players.
While that may be the foremost reason, my current opinion is that we don't have the players we can select playing as a team as well as they can be.@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Jet said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
just to say that maybe we dont have a vintage batch of loose forwards knocking around.
I think this is the key. We have a bunch of loose forwards similar to what Razor was a player actually - solid depth/placeholder loosies - but in no danger of pushing for a world XV.
That's interesting, it could well be that we just don't have the best players.
While that may be the foremost reason, my current opinion is that we don't have the players we can select playing as a team as well as they can be.The fact our u 20s get bullied now , almost regularly, suggests our production line is no longer the thing to save us .
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@Duluth said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Codie starts about 5m behind Blackadder and winds up 20m in front
Good example Jet/Steve
Hahaha so that's who it is @Jet Blackadder sized hole in the squad, I shed a tear when Fletcher Newell's dad flew all the way to SA for his debut hahaha makes sense now.
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Will post it here because linesout throwing has been a topic of conversation, but this goes out to all the hookers out there
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C-lCLw2otFu/?igsh=MTJhNTVmNzFnaGN5bg==
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The Ka (we've got this in the bag and aren't taking you seriously) Mate haka was used last week.
Next week, the Kapa (O' shit we're taking you seriously you now ) Pango haka will be rolled out.
@Frank Funny, I noticed that at the time and it made me wonder. Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t it Kapa o Pango twice against Eng?
I had assumed that after getting mugged by ‘Tina twice in recent years that they were up there with Ireland on top of the list of ‘I’d rather die than lose to these blokes.’
Did nobody remember Matera’s ‘I play for my country’ line?
I don’t think the choice of haka is insignificant.
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@Frank Funny, I noticed that at the time and it made me wonder. Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t it Kapa o Pango twice against Eng?
I had assumed that after getting mugged by ‘Tina twice in recent years that they were up there with Ireland on top of the list of ‘I’d rather die than lose to these blokes.’
Did nobody remember Matera’s ‘I play for my country’ line?
I don’t think the choice of haka is insignificant.
@game_film said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Frank
I don’t think the choice of haka is insignificant.Well if it is, then that's a pretty shit idea. What better way to tell the players that this is an easy game and they can chuck it around without earning the right first?
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Isn't the line of thought "he's not the fastest, not the most effective, but he tries his best" the epitome of the woke criticism the saffas were accusing us of above?
What I do know is that if Dalton was on the blindside of the scrum in front of our line, he wouldn't have been brushed off like he was Terry Wright like the son of Todd was.
@Kirwan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Isn't the line of thought "he's not the fastest, not the most effective, but he tries his best" the epitome of the woke criticism the saffas were accusing us of above?
What I do know is that if Dalton was on the blindside of the scrum in front of our line, he wouldn't have been brushed off like he was Terry Wright like the son of Todd was.
What I know is that Dalton made 8 tackles to Ethan's 20.
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@Kirwan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Isn't the line of thought "he's not the fastest, not the most effective, but he tries his best" the epitome of the woke criticism the saffas were accusing us of above?
What I do know is that if Dalton was on the blindside of the scrum in front of our line, he wouldn't have been brushed off like he was Terry Wright like the son of Todd was.
What I know is that Dalton made 8 tackles to Ethan's 20.
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Isn't the line of thought "he's not the fastest, not the most effective, but he tries his best" the epitome of the woke criticism the saffas were accusing us of above?
What I do know is that if Dalton was on the blindside of the scrum in front of our line, he wouldn't have been brushed off like he was Terry Wright like the son of Todd was.
What I know is that Dalton made 8 tackles to Ethan's 20.
Dalton is usually up in 15s, so that was unusually low for him. This is a good example of Blackadder stats looking great on paper, but how many were as effective as Dalton chopping down that centre?
He’s a busy but an ineffective player. When he needed to make the tackles as the enforcer six he was bumped off like a winger, one costing a try.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Isn't the line of thought "he's not the fastest, not the most effective, but he tries his best" the epitome of the woke criticism the saffas were accusing us of above?
What I do know is that if Dalton was on the blindside of the scrum in front of our line, he wouldn't have been brushed off like he was Terry Wright like the son of Todd was.
What I know is that Dalton made 8 tackles to Ethan's 20.
Dalton is usually up in 15s, so that was unusually low for him. This is a good example of Blackadder stats looking great on paper, but how many were as effective as Dalton chopping down that centre?
He’s a busy but an ineffective player. When he needed to make the tackles as the enforcer six he was bumped off like a winger, one costing a try.
@Kirwan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Isn't the line of thought "he's not the fastest, not the most effective, but he tries his best" the epitome of the woke criticism the saffas were accusing us of above?
What I do know is that if Dalton was on the blindside of the scrum in front of our line, he wouldn't have been brushed off like he was Terry Wright like the son of Todd was.
What I know is that Dalton made 8 tackles to Ethan's 20.
Dalton is usually up in 15s, so that was unusually low for him. This is a good example of Blackadder stats looking great on paper, but how many were as effective as Dalton chopping down that centre?
He’s a busy but an ineffective player. When he needed to make the tackles as the enforcer six he was bumped off like a winger, one costing a try.
I hope they did count the one where he got rag dolled by the argie ball runner...
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@Kirwan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Isn't the line of thought "he's not the fastest, not the most effective, but he tries his best" the epitome of the woke criticism the saffas were accusing us of above?
What I do know is that if Dalton was on the blindside of the scrum in front of our line, he wouldn't have been brushed off like he was Terry Wright like the son of Todd was.
What I know is that Dalton made 8 tackles to Ethan's 20.
Dalton is usually up in 15s, so that was unusually low for him. This is a good example of Blackadder stats looking great on paper, but how many were as effective as Dalton chopping down that centre?
He’s a busy but an ineffective player. When he needed to make the tackles as the enforcer six he was bumped off like a winger, one costing a try.
I hope they did count the one where he got rag dolled by the argie ball runner...
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Isn't the line of thought "he's not the fastest, not the most effective, but he tries his best" the epitome of the woke criticism the saffas were accusing us of above?
What I do know is that if Dalton was on the blindside of the scrum in front of our line, he wouldn't have been brushed off like he was Terry Wright like the son of Todd was.
What I know is that Dalton made 8 tackles to Ethan's 20.
Dalton is usually up in 15s, so that was unusually low for him. This is a good example of Blackadder stats looking great on paper, but how many were as effective as Dalton chopping down that centre?
He’s a busy but an ineffective player. When he needed to make the tackles as the enforcer six he was bumped off like a winger, one costing a try.
I hope they did count the one where he got rag dolled by the argie ball runner...
Well 19-8 would hardly change the facts, would it?
Dalton is usually a big tackler, that's true and the major strength of his game - but De Groot made more in that game.
The ineffective myth doesn't become true by a couple of people saying it lots of times. I'd say a flanker only making 8 tackles in a game in which we conceded 38 points is ineffective. -
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Isn't the line of thought "he's not the fastest, not the most effective, but he tries his best" the epitome of the woke criticism the saffas were accusing us of above?
What I do know is that if Dalton was on the blindside of the scrum in front of our line, he wouldn't have been brushed off like he was Terry Wright like the son of Todd was.
What I know is that Dalton made 8 tackles to Ethan's 20.
Dalton is usually up in 15s, so that was unusually low for him. This is a good example of Blackadder stats looking great on paper, but how many were as effective as Dalton chopping down that centre?
He’s a busy but an ineffective player. When he needed to make the tackles as the enforcer six he was bumped off like a winger, one costing a try.
I hope they did count the one where he got rag dolled by the argie ball runner...
Well 19-8 would hardly change the facts, would it?
Dalton is usually a big tackler, that's true and the major strength of his game - but De Groot made more in that game.
The ineffective myth doesn't become true by a couple of people saying it lots of times. I'd say a flanker only making 8 tackles in a game in which we conceded 38 points is ineffective.@reprobate said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Isn't the line of thought "he's not the fastest, not the most effective, but he tries his best" the epitome of the woke criticism the saffas were accusing us of above?
What I do know is that if Dalton was on the blindside of the scrum in front of our line, he wouldn't have been brushed off like he was Terry Wright like the son of Todd was.
What I know is that Dalton made 8 tackles to Ethan's 20.
Dalton is usually up in 15s, so that was unusually low for him. This is a good example of Blackadder stats looking great on paper, but how many were as effective as Dalton chopping down that centre?
He’s a busy but an ineffective player. When he needed to make the tackles as the enforcer six he was bumped off like a winger, one costing a try.
I hope they did count the one where he got rag dolled by the argie ball runner...
Well 19-8 would hardly change the facts, would it?
Dalton is usually a big tackler, that's true and the major strength of his game - but De Groot made more in that game.
The ineffective myth doesn't become true by a couple of people saying it lots of times. I'd say a flanker only making 8 tackles in a game in which we conceded 38 points is ineffective.Yeah, just trying to inject a little light humour into the situation. Clearly failing it for you...
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@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Isn't the line of thought "he's not the fastest, not the most effective, but he tries his best" the epitome of the woke criticism the saffas were accusing us of above?
What I do know is that if Dalton was on the blindside of the scrum in front of our line, he wouldn't have been brushed off like he was Terry Wright like the son of Todd was.
What I know is that Dalton made 8 tackles to Ethan's 20.
Dalton is usually up in 15s, so that was unusually low for him. This is a good example of Blackadder stats looking great on paper, but how many were as effective as Dalton chopping down that centre?
He’s a busy but an ineffective player. When he needed to make the tackles as the enforcer six he was bumped off like a winger, one costing a try.
I hope they did count the one where he got rag dolled by the argie ball runner...
Well 19-8 would hardly change the facts, would it?
Dalton is usually a big tackler, that's true and the major strength of his game - but De Groot made more in that game.
The ineffective myth doesn't become true by a couple of people saying it lots of times. I'd say a flanker only making 8 tackles in a game in which we conceded 38 points is ineffective. -
@Kirwan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Isn't the line of thought "he's not the fastest, not the most effective, but he tries his best" the epitome of the woke criticism the saffas were accusing us of above?
What I do know is that if Dalton was on the blindside of the scrum in front of our line, he wouldn't have been brushed off like he was Terry Wright like the son of Todd was.
What I know is that Dalton made 8 tackles to Ethan's 20.
Because Ethan played 80 and Papali'i played 60 and a lot of the Pumas possession came in the last quarter.
The ABs still had 55% possession over the game which means less tackling but the Pumas had 80% possession in the last 10 minutes.
