All Blacks v Argentina II
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@kpkanz width is fine and dandy. As long as you win the collisions and establish a platform up front. We should have learned this by now, we've been making the same mistakes since 2019
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@kpkanz width is fine and dandy. As long as you win the collisions and establish a platform up front. We should have learned this by now, we've been making the same mistakes since 2019
Two tests against England in ten minute periods we blew them off the park. Wondered WTF hit them. They were out on their feet and had zero answers. It was a result of good hard running up the guts with some flashy shit to finish off. Then for some reason we allowed them back in. Rinse and repeat.
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@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@kpkanz width is fine and dandy. As long as you win the collisions and establish a platform up front. We should have learned this by now, we've been making the same mistakes since 2019
Two tests against England in ten minute periods we blew them off the park. Wondered WTF hit them. They were out on their feet and had zero answers. It was a result of good hard running up the guts with some flashy shit to finish off. Then for some reason we allowed them back in. Rinse and repeat.
@LatsToTheMax Go back to Fozzie and you will find games we did that very thing. Frustrating. With a capital F
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@darylmitchell Razor himself has admitted a few times whenever he's referencing the players not doing what they've been told to do, it's on the coaches.
Ambiguous to determine what that means currently, if there are scenarios on the field where they have been told to have a go or play a certain way but have been reverting to habits from previous years.
He seems to want a lot of width. After every match so far in the interview he indicates (literally with his hands) that there were opportunities to shift it where we didn't take it.
Could even be a problem where a team like the Crusaders from previous years had a bunch of guys who aren't stars and are happy to move the ball on.
While being in the All Blacks now, most of these guys have been the 'star' in every team they've been in and are choosing to take contact and have a go rather than move the ball where there is space.
This is all complete speculation and possibly complete crap.
@kpkanz said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@darylmitchell Razor himself has admitted a few times whenever he's referencing the players not doing what they've been told to do, it's on the coaches.
Ambiguous to determine what that means currently, if there are scenarios on the field where they have been told to have a go or play a certain way but have been reverting to habits from previous years.
He seems to want a lot of width. After every match so far in the interview he indicates (literally with his hands) that there were opportunities to shift it where we didn't take it.
Could even be a problem where a team like the Crusaders from previous years had a bunch of guys who aren't stars and are happy to move the ball on.
While being in the All Blacks now, most of these guys have been the 'star' in every team they've been in and are choosing to take contact and have a go rather than move the ball where there is space.
This is all complete speculation and possibly complete crap.
Yeah I don't buy the yesteryear stuff. These guys go through at least two coaching groups if not more, every year and that shouldn't be a problem. Look at the change in the blues this year, who according to the AB group aren't elite players like the ones they have selected. Even the canes had a vastly different style of play from previous seasons.
So maybe that points to the coaches who used to be in charge at the canes/blues...
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@kpkanz said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@darylmitchell Razor himself has admitted a few times whenever he's referencing the players not doing what they've been told to do, it's on the coaches.
Ambiguous to determine what that means currently, if there are scenarios on the field where they have been told to have a go or play a certain way but have been reverting to habits from previous years.
He seems to want a lot of width. After every match so far in the interview he indicates (literally with his hands) that there were opportunities to shift it where we didn't take it.
Could even be a problem where a team like the Crusaders from previous years had a bunch of guys who aren't stars and are happy to move the ball on.
While being in the All Blacks now, most of these guys have been the 'star' in every team they've been in and are choosing to take contact and have a go rather than move the ball where there is space.
This is all complete speculation and possibly complete crap.
Yeah I don't buy the yesteryear stuff. These guys go through at least two coaching groups if not more, every year and that shouldn't be a problem. Look at the change in the blues this year, who according to the AB group aren't elite players like the ones they have selected. Even the canes had a vastly different style of play from previous seasons.
So maybe that points to the coaches who used to be in charge at the canes/blues...
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Yeah I don't buy the yesteryear stuff. These guys go through at least two coaching groups if not more, every year and that shouldn't be a problem. Look at the change in the blues this year, who according to the AB group aren't elite players like the ones they have selected. Even the canes had a vastly different style of play from previous seasons.
So maybe that points to the coaches who used to be in charge at the canes/blues...
Well yes I was speculating as to why the players supposedly aren't doing what they've been coached to do.
Wasn't specifically pointing to the Foster era, it could very well be habits from super rugby.
In either case, there is an apparent discrepancy between training and execution during the actual games for whatever reason.
Perhaps a new style and structure that will take a few games to settle into, whatever this new structure is.
Super Rugby teams also have much more preparation time so I don't think the Blues/Canes examples are equivalent.
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@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Yeah I don't buy the yesteryear stuff. These guys go through at least two coaching groups if not more, every year and that shouldn't be a problem. Look at the change in the blues this year, who according to the AB group aren't elite players like the ones they have selected. Even the canes had a vastly different style of play from previous seasons.
So maybe that points to the coaches who used to be in charge at the canes/blues...
Well yes I was speculating as to why the players supposedly aren't doing what they've been coached to do.
Wasn't specifically pointing to the Foster era, it could very well be habits from super rugby.
In either case, there is an apparent discrepancy between training and execution during the actual games for whatever reason.
Perhaps a new style and structure that will take a few games to settle into, whatever this new structure is.
Super Rugby teams also have much more preparation time so I don't think the Blues/Canes examples are equivalent.
@kpkanz said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Yeah I don't buy the yesteryear stuff. These guys go through at least two coaching groups if not more, every year and that shouldn't be a problem. Look at the change in the blues this year, who according to the AB group aren't elite players like the ones they have selected. Even the canes had a vastly different style of play from previous seasons.
So maybe that points to the coaches who used to be in charge at the canes/blues...
Well yes I was speculating as to why the players supposedly aren't doing what they've been coached to do.
Wasn't specifically pointing to the Foster era, it could very well be habits from super rugby.
In either case, there is an apparent discrepancy between training and execution during the actual games for whatever reason.
Perhaps a new style and structure that will take a few games to settle into, whatever this new structure is.
Super Rugby teams also have much more preparation time so I don't think the Blues/Canes examples are equivalent.
Or the playing style is flawed, and doesn't give the players the best chance to play their best
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@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Yeah I don't buy the yesteryear stuff. These guys go through at least two coaching groups if not more, every year and that shouldn't be a problem. Look at the change in the blues this year, who according to the AB group aren't elite players like the ones they have selected. Even the canes had a vastly different style of play from previous seasons.
So maybe that points to the coaches who used to be in charge at the canes/blues...
Well yes I was speculating as to why the players supposedly aren't doing what they've been coached to do.
Wasn't specifically pointing to the Foster era, it could very well be habits from super rugby.
In either case, there is an apparent discrepancy between training and execution during the actual games for whatever reason.
Perhaps a new style and structure that will take a few games to settle into, whatever this new structure is.
Super Rugby teams also have much more preparation time so I don't think the Blues/Canes examples are equivalent.
@kpkanz said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Super Rugby teams also have much more preparation time so I don't think the Blues/Canes examples are equivalent.
You mean as in preseason? Not sure I buy that either. These are supposed to be elite players we're talking about, not the mix you get at a much lower level.
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@kpkanz said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Super Rugby teams also have much more preparation time so I don't think the Blues/Canes examples are equivalent.
You mean as in preseason? Not sure I buy that either. These are supposed to be elite players we're talking about, not the mix you get at a much lower level.
@Bones I don't buy that either - remember how quickly Joe Schmidt's attacking systems came into effect when he took over the attack at short notice mid-2022?
Holland and McDonald have been in AB camp since January this year and the coaching group were meeting and planning as early as once 2023 SR finished...
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Also, I think goalkicking per se has not been a weakness. With exits it is as much accuracy as distance that is the issue IMO.
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Also, I think goalkicking per se has not been a weakness. With exits it is as much accuracy as distance that is the issue IMO.
Well, it took ABs about four kick offs for ABs to realise Argies were kicking right and deep to negate TJS returning off his left boot. Noticed later they passed to DMac.
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@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I actually don’t think it’s our carriers so much. I think it’s more our attack that's the problem - we’re not putting any deception into how we attack
The carriers are getting stopped on teh gain line all night. And we don't have many effective ball runners. FFS they asked Ardie to do that 19 times - that's ridiculous.
Deception helps, but at some point you need power carries with clarity. So much flat footed ball that we thought would disappear ... but it seems to be a tactic.
@nzzp said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I actually don’t think it’s our carriers so much. I think it’s more our attack that's the problem - we’re not putting any deception into how we attack
The carriers are getting stopped on teh gain line all night. And we don't have many effective ball runners. FFS they asked Ardie to do that 19 times - that's ridiculous.
Deception helps, but at some point you need power carries with clarity. So much flat footed ball that we thought would disappear ... but it seems to be a tactic.
It helps if you try and run into space.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Also, I think goalkicking per se has not been a weakness. With exits it is as much accuracy as distance that is the issue IMO.
Well, it took ABs about four kick offs for ABs to realise Argies were kicking right and deep to negate TJS returning off his left boot. Noticed later they passed to DMac.
@pakman said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Also, I think goalkicking per se has not been a weakness. With exits it is as much accuracy as distance that is the issue IMO.
Well, it took ABs about four kick offs for ABs to realise Argies were kicking right and deep to negate TJS returning off his left boot. Noticed later they passed to DMac.
ok so using their brains would be an improvement as well...
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@Duluth said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
It was a knock on and the players near the knock are expecting a scrum. Then the chip kick worked
The main thing watching the replay is how slow Blackadder is in comparison to Taylor. Codie flys past him
This is true.
The point I was making was that Bones questioned whether Blackadder gets around the park , and in his defence I noted that he does his best as his physical limitations allow. He was first man on the scene as Darry dots down and would have been available for an offload should Darry have been a yard short.
And I was noting that while slow, and while not Kaino-esque or McCaw-esque he tries his heart out.
I would try my heart out to if I was an All Black.
Unfortunately, trying your heart out should be the bare minimum and not a quality that gets you selected in the starting 15.
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@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Not sure but Blackadder missed that tackle off the scrum near our line after the dodgy passing from our guys - which eventually led to a try.
Contrast to Papali'i who nailed two guys in a row off an earlier scrum.
Blackadder looks like a guy confused and off the pace at times in between doing some good things. He basically looks like a guy who's played bugger all rugby in recent years which of course - he is.
The guy making 20 tackles is the one off the pace?
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Not sure but Blackadder missed that tackle off the scrum near our line after the dodgy passing from our guys - which eventually led to a try.
Contrast to Papali'i who nailed two guys in a row off an earlier scrum.
Blackadder looks like a guy confused and off the pace at times in between doing some good things. He basically looks like a guy who's played bugger all rugby in recent years which of course - he is.
The guy making 20 tackles is the one off the pace?
My feeling is that they play the same game - it’s the same old story of unbalance. Both of them are ‘Cane’ like workers. We don’t need two of them.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Not sure but Blackadder missed that tackle off the scrum near our line after the dodgy passing from our guys - which eventually led to a try.
Contrast to Papali'i who nailed two guys in a row off an earlier scrum.
Blackadder looks like a guy confused and off the pace at times in between doing some good things. He basically looks like a guy who's played bugger all rugby in recent years which of course - he is.
The guy making 20 tackles is the one off the pace?
My feeling is that they play the same game - it’s the same old story of unbalance. Both of them are ‘Cane’ like workers. We don’t need two of them.
@gt12 I agree, but think that Cane, DP and LJ are the most similar. EB is a bit different.
I can't understand the thinking behind the overall selection, because alongside that we have Sititi who is nothing like Savea, and Finau is different to all the others. Where's the plan? -
@gt12 I agree, but think that Cane, DP and LJ are the most similar. EB is a bit different.
I can't understand the thinking behind the overall selection, because alongside that we have Sititi who is nothing like Savea, and Finau is different to all the others. Where's the plan? -
@gt12 I agree, but think that Cane, DP and LJ are the most similar. EB is a bit different.
I can't understand the thinking behind the overall selection, because alongside that we have Sititi who is nothing like Savea, and Finau is different to all the others. Where's the plan?What is it you think is different about Blackadder?
He and Jacobson are both utilities that are too small to be world class 6/8
Cane and Papali'i are both specialist 7s.
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What is it you think is different about Blackadder?
He and Jacobson are both utilities that are too small to be world class 6/8
Cane and Papali'i are both specialist 7s.
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
What is it you think is different about Blackadder?
He and Jacobson are both utilities that are too small to be world class 6/8
Cane and Papali'i are both specialist 7s.
Blackadder looks lankier, maybe slightly longer forearms.
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On the loose forwards, Papali'i and Blackadder hit the same number of breakdowns throughout the match with the starting locks, Codie Taylor and Tyrel Lomax the next best.
Blackadder (20), Vaa'i (15) and De Groot (10) were the busiest tacklers, with Vaa'i and De Groot each making two dominant hits.
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@reprobate you have to question whether it's a microcosm of the wider issues - a lack of clarify and clear plan with too many cooks in the kitchen (5 different selectors).
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@reprobate you have to question whether it's a microcosm of the wider issues - a lack of clarify and clear plan with too many cooks in the kitchen (5 different selectors).
And this is on Razor.
In his determination to do things differently, he's appears to have made a number of miscalculations thus far- ignoring Akira and Sotutu in favor a bunch of 6.5s
- 5 coaches
- weird ass Super rugby style game plan
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@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
What is it you think is different about Blackadder?
He and Jacobson are both utilities that are too small to be world class 6/8
Cane and Papali'i are both specialist 7s.
Blackadder looks lankier, maybe slightly longer forearms.
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
What is it you think is different about Blackadder?
He and Jacobson are both utilities that are too small to be world class 6/8
Cane and Papali'i are both specialist 7s.
Blackadder looks lankier, maybe slightly longer forearms.
All elbows and knees like his Dad Todd.
