All Blacks v Argentina II
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@Crazy-Horse yeah I think there's a likelihood you could be wrong. To judge him on how he played when he wasn't even selected seems pretty harsh.
It's not like he was just standing still and passing the ball this season. That's not how the blues attack worked. He had a huge role in organising and orchestrating that attack, including finding space for himself.
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Crazy-Horse yeah I think there's a likelihood you could be wrong. To judge him on how he played when he wasn't even selected seems pretty harsh.
It's not like he was just standing still and passing the ball this season. That's not how the blues attack worked. He had a huge role in organising and orchestrating that attack, including finding space for himself.
just more organiser, as opposed to headless chook
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@Crazy-Horse yeah I think there's a likelihood you could be wrong. To judge him on how he played when he wasn't even selected seems pretty harsh.
It's not like he was just standing still and passing the ball this season. That's not how the blues attack worked. He had a huge role in organising and orchestrating that attack, including finding space for himself.
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Crazy-Horse yeah I think there's a likelihood you could be wrong. To judge him on how he played when he wasn't even selected seems pretty harsh.
It's not like he was just standing still and passing the ball this season. That's not how the blues attack worked. He had a huge role in organising and orchestrating that attack, including finding space for himself.
Yes, but his outsides ran straight and hard, which they did bloody well. It's also why Lam looked good. The AB backs are not playing this way.
Don't get me wrong, I like Plummer and I would like to see how he'd go. I just think he would be getting set up to fail under the current game plan.
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Some of you have lost the plot.
That shit show wasn’t DMacs fault, it’s a systematic fault.
Can’t blame our 10 for lack of decent game plan, especially when he’s getting shit slow ball.
Bottom line is we need some hard mongrel bastards in the forwards who love nothing more than steam rolling defenders.
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@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Crazy-Horse yeah I think there's a likelihood you could be wrong. To judge him on how he played when he wasn't even selected seems pretty harsh.
It's not like he was just standing still and passing the ball this season. That's not how the blues attack worked. He had a huge role in organising and orchestrating that attack, including finding space for himself.
Yes, but his outsides ran straight and hard, which they did bloody well. It's also why Lam looked good. The AB backs are not playing this way.
Don't get me wrong, I like Plummer and I would like to see how he'd go. I just think he would be getting set up to fail under the current game plan.
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Crazy-Horse yeah I think there's a likelihood you could be wrong. To judge him on how he played when he wasn't even selected seems pretty harsh.
It's not like he was just standing still and passing the ball this season. That's not how the blues attack worked. He had a huge role in organising and orchestrating that attack, including finding space for himself.
Yes, but his outsides ran straight and hard, which they did bloody well. It's also why Lam looked good. The AB backs are not playing this way.
Don't get me wrong, I like Plummer and I would like to see how he'd go. I just think he would be getting set up to fail under the current game plan.
As opposed to Jordie and his sweet feet? His outsides ran hard and straight when that was required, but they also carved up out wide and in the midfield. You realise that the whole bloody backline apart from the 5/8ths were selected by Razor?
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Crazy-Horse yeah I think there's a likelihood you could be wrong. To judge him on how he played when he wasn't even selected seems pretty harsh.
It's not like he was just standing still and passing the ball this season. That's not how the blues attack worked. He had a huge role in organising and orchestrating that attack, including finding space for himself.
Yes, but his outsides ran straight and hard, which they did bloody well. It's also why Lam looked good. The AB backs are not playing this way.
Don't get me wrong, I like Plummer and I would like to see how he'd go. I just think he would be getting set up to fail under the current game plan.
As opposed to Jordie and his sweet feet? His outsides ran hard and straight when that was required, but they also carved up out wide and in the midfield. You realise that the whole bloody backline apart from the 5/8ths were selected by Razor?
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Crazy-Horse yeah I think there's a likelihood you could be wrong. To judge him on how he played when he wasn't even selected seems pretty harsh.
It's not like he was just standing still and passing the ball this season. That's not how the blues attack worked. He had a huge role in organising and orchestrating that attack, including finding space for himself.
Yes, but his outsides ran straight and hard, which they did bloody well. It's also why Lam looked good. The AB backs are not playing this way.
Don't get me wrong, I like Plummer and I would like to see how he'd go. I just think he would be getting set up to fail under the current game plan.
As opposed to Jordie and his sweet feet? His outsides ran hard and straight when that was required, but they also carved up out wide and in the midfield. You realise that the whole bloody backline apart from the 5/8ths were selected by Razor?
WTF? Do you think I am defending Razor?
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
They'd be better off saying fuck it and give Plummer the 10 shirt
Not if they are going to use the same game plan. I am all for Plummer, but if they want to play the way they have been Plummer's game doesn't suit.
Why not?
See @Frank's post above. That's why we have had B Barrett, RM and now DMac. Much of our backline play requires the 10 to be a running threat. DMac and to a lesser extent RM are also a passing threat. Unfortunately I think Perofeta is more likely to get a run at 10 if something was to happen to DMac and BB. So far he has shown he is closer to that style than Plummer (doesn’t mean I think Perofeta is a better option)
I may be wrong, but I don't think it's a coincidence that Plummer looked the goods with the Blues this year. The Blues style suited him. Prior to this year, when the Blues played more like the other NZ teams, Plummer wasn't even always getting a start.
Here's something for the coaches to ponder. How about we make our ten pass the ball to his 12 and 13 and let them try to make some play? How about sometimes our 10 kick for territory? And every once in a while, he could even run to keep the opposition off guard, instead of trying to run more often than not.....?
@canefan Dmac passed and kicked more than he ran, do people even watch the games.
One issue currently is Jordies form or possibly skill-set. He seemed to run when he should have passed and passed when he should have ran a few times last night.
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@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Crazy-Horse yeah I think there's a likelihood you could be wrong. To judge him on how he played when he wasn't even selected seems pretty harsh.
It's not like he was just standing still and passing the ball this season. That's not how the blues attack worked. He had a huge role in organising and orchestrating that attack, including finding space for himself.
Yes, but his outsides ran straight and hard, which they did bloody well. It's also why Lam looked good. The AB backs are not playing this way.
Don't get me wrong, I like Plummer and I would like to see how he'd go. I just think he would be getting set up to fail under the current game plan.
As opposed to Jordie and his sweet feet? His outsides ran hard and straight when that was required, but they also carved up out wide and in the midfield. You realise that the whole bloody backline apart from the 5/8ths were selected by Razor?
WTF? Do you think I am defending Razor?
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Crazy-Horse yeah I think there's a likelihood you could be wrong. To judge him on how he played when he wasn't even selected seems pretty harsh.
It's not like he was just standing still and passing the ball this season. That's not how the blues attack worked. He had a huge role in organising and orchestrating that attack, including finding space for himself.
Yes, but his outsides ran straight and hard, which they did bloody well. It's also why Lam looked good. The AB backs are not playing this way.
Don't get me wrong, I like Plummer and I would like to see how he'd go. I just think he would be getting set up to fail under the current game plan.
As opposed to Jordie and his sweet feet? His outsides ran hard and straight when that was required, but they also carved up out wide and in the midfield. You realise that the whole bloody backline apart from the 5/8ths were selected by Razor?
WTF? Do you think I am defending Razor?
No, we're discussing the merits of Plummer. If the blues were just all about hard, straight runners and had no finesse and nothing to offer out wide, why would the rest of the backs get selected?
Were they that good that they performed in spite of the limited Plummer?
Or is it more likely that Plummer pulled a lot of strings to align that attack with success?
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@canefan Dmac passed and kicked more than he ran, do people even watch the games.
One issue currently is Jordies form or possibly skill-set. He seemed to run when he should have passed and passed when he should have ran a few times last night.
@kpkanz said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@canefan Dmac passed and kicked more than he ran, do people even watch the games.
One issue currently is Jordies form or possibly skill-set. He seemed to run when he should have passed and passed when he should have ran a few times last night.
Oh man you have to calm the fuck down mate. We were talking about Plummer and someone said how he doesn't fit the system. I like DMac, he's not the number one problem
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Crazy-Horse yeah I think there's a likelihood you could be wrong. To judge him on how he played when he wasn't even selected seems pretty harsh.
It's not like he was just standing still and passing the ball this season. That's not how the blues attack worked. He had a huge role in organising and orchestrating that attack, including finding space for himself.
Yes, but his outsides ran straight and hard, which they did bloody well. It's also why Lam looked good. The AB backs are not playing this way.
Don't get me wrong, I like Plummer and I would like to see how he'd go. I just think he would be getting set up to fail under the current game plan.
As opposed to Jordie and his sweet feet? His outsides ran hard and straight when that was required, but they also carved up out wide and in the midfield. You realise that the whole bloody backline apart from the 5/8ths were selected by Razor?
WTF? Do you think I am defending Razor?
No, we're discussing the merits of Plummer. If the blues were just all about hard, straight runners and had no finesse and nothing to offer out wide, why would the rest of the backs get selected?
Were they that good that they performed in spite of the limited Plummer?
Or is it more likely that Plummer pulled a lot of strings to align that attack with success?
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Crazy-Horse yeah I think there's a likelihood you could be wrong. To judge him on how he played when he wasn't even selected seems pretty harsh.
It's not like he was just standing still and passing the ball this season. That's not how the blues attack worked. He had a huge role in organising and orchestrating that attack, including finding space for himself.
Yes, but his outsides ran straight and hard, which they did bloody well. It's also why Lam looked good. The AB backs are not playing this way.
Don't get me wrong, I like Plummer and I would like to see how he'd go. I just think he would be getting set up to fail under the current game plan.
As opposed to Jordie and his sweet feet? His outsides ran hard and straight when that was required, but they also carved up out wide and in the midfield. You realise that the whole bloody backline apart from the 5/8ths were selected by Razor?
WTF? Do you think I am defending Razor?
No, we're discussing the merits of Plummer. If the blues were just all about hard, straight runners and had no finesse and nothing to offer out wide, why would the rest of the backs get selected?
Were they that good that they performed in spite of the limited Plummer?
Or is it more likely that Plummer pulled a lot of strings to align that attack with success?
Oh you meant the other Blues backs who got selected for the ABs. My mistake.
Again, I like Plummer and glad he is in the squad now. I just suspect while the ABs are wanting to play the way they are he will be a last resort. Sadly I am expecting him to drop out when Perofeta gets fully fit because surely if they thought he suited their game plan they would have selected him in the first place. Unless of course he is making every post a winner at training.
I think the two Blues wingers got selected because they showed this year they are a threat close to the ruck and in space - ala Reece. Razor obviously likes that. RI because he has been good for a number of years. I can't explain or agree with Christie or Perofeta
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I wonder how many players were put on ice for the first test with an eye to SA, e.g. Clarke and Finau, and how many were actually dropped. I suspect it's more of the former, and that their hand will be forced a bit this weekend selection wise as they can't afford another loss. Players like Blackadder and ALB will likely go back to the bench, I'd expect Finau and Rieko to replace them, and I'd also expect Clarke back on the left as there's some distance between him and the next best wing at the moment. I think Jordan will start with Beauden on the bench as well. If Pat T is fit then he and Darry will partner up with Vaa'i back on the bench where he is better suited. Those changes make us quite a bit stronger.
But who knows really? It hasn't been easy to discern any obvious plan based on selections and how we have played to date.
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I hope we get an easy pool at the next World Cup.
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I wonder how many players were put on ice for the first test with an eye to SA, e.g. Clarke and Finau, and how many were actually dropped. I suspect it's more of the former, and that their hand will be forced a bit this weekend selection wise as they can't afford another loss. Players like Blackadder and ALB will likely go back to the bench, I'd expect Finau and Rieko to replace them, and I'd also expect Clarke back on the left as there's some distance between him and the next best wing at the moment. I think Jordan will start with Beauden on the bench as well. If Pat T is fit then he and Darry will partner up with Vaa'i back on the bench where he is better suited. Those changes make us quite a bit stronger.
But who knows really? It hasn't been easy to discern any obvious plan based on selections and how we have played to date.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I wonder how many players were put on ice for the first test with an eye to SA, e.g. Clarke and Finau, and how many were actually dropped. I suspect it's more of the former, and that their hand will be forced a bit this weekend selection wise as they can't afford another loss. Players like Blackadder and ALB will likely go back to the bench, I'd expect Finau and Rieko to replace them, and I'd also expect Clarke back on the left as there's some distance between him and the next best wing at the moment. I think Jordan will start with Beauden on the bench as well. If Pat T is fit then he and Darry will partner up with Vaa'i back on the bench where he is better suited. Those changes make us quite a bit stronger.
But who knows really? It hasn't been easy to discern any obvious plan based on selections and how we have played to date.
All of this is pretty likely along with a ‘paper over the cracks’ victory by about 30 points along with gratuitous headlines like ‘Razor has his edge again’ or such bullshit
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@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I expect some changes coming one might be BB to first five which makes me very nervous,Jordan to FB and Ratima to HB I can see that happening but not much else.
Maybe Clarke for Reece.
Razor did pin point the Savea and D Mac fuck up passes which led to the Argies try as being the pivotal losing point in the match.
Him highlighting that may cost some one a starting spot.That's certainly one way to spin it.
Bad error? Yes. Compounded by another bad error? Also yes.
Pivotal losing point? Come the fuck on.The complete inability of our forwards to thrn defend that situation is a bigger concern than a couple of individual judgement and skill errors. Errors that came about because our overall mindset was "fast and wide always"
Not what I would do or want more like what I think may happen.
If BB gets move to 10 I'll....
Well, I'll laugh in "well this new era is certainly different aye?"
If there has to be a change then, they should start Plummer at 10.
BB should stay on the bench. They found a great role for him and was very successful and then decided to change it. Why?
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@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
They'd be better off saying fuck it and give Plummer the 10 shirt
yeah why not I am not sure D Mac is the answer at 10.
I'm watching the replay, still in the first half. DMac is good. He's out best 10 at the moment by some margin. His passing is arguably the best in the backline (including TJ). He unlocks defences - put ALB in for his try.
The issue is the forwrads. We are getting stopped on teh gain line every time. We are struggling to protect our ruck ball. Our problems are up front- Argies outmuscling us consistently.
Jason Ryan is now 2 years into him is tenure as forward coach. He had a great 18 months but this pack he is producing is well below par.
Needs to up his game.
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@Jet said in All Blacks v Argentina 2:
I have been a fan of Ethan Blackadder but to see him barrelled over by the ball carrier in the incident where he nearly got a yellow was stark.
Cane, Collins, Kaino et al would have emptied that fella, or at least stop him dead in his tracks.
And then it WOULD have been a yellow.
Being a pussy, kept him on the field. Gardner used slightly different words, but... that was what he meant.@Kruse said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Being a pussy, kept him on the field. Gardner used slightly different words, but... that was what he meant.
You should be a ref. Preferably straight after happy hour.
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If there has to be a change then, they should start Plummer at 10.
BB should stay on the bench. They found a great role for him and was very successful and then decided to change it. Why?
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
BB should stay on the bench. They found a great role for him and was very successful and then decided to change it. Why?
Perofeta injury. So it's either BB or the choice of two green fullbacks. Makes sense to me.
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Lately it has taken a loss or an injury to engender real lasting change in the Allblacks. Injury was definitely Fosters best selector. I suspect yesterday might turn out to have been one of those days. Could be the beginning of Jordan at fullback and Ratima at 9 for example. Where they get the jersey next week, score a pair of tries each and the rest is history.
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I just rewatched a lot of the match after reading some of the online comment on the match. Just don't get all the parochial bs and condemnation that is being spewed out. Give the coaches and players a break ffs. Pumas played far better than expected.
I think the coaches probably planned two different teams for Argies as a trial to pick best combos for SA and Oz. They just did not expect to drop one at home first.Unlike most posters I thought it was a huge late match series of execution errors by AB forwards that lost us the match, not tactics or individuals. After a near 50 20 it was a long string of forward errors that killed us.
I thought the penalties against Ethan and Dalton were marginal and perhaps Sititi too. The lineout and scrum turnovers were bad execution. Ardies pass from the base seemed unnecessary and wild. But the try was more due to Ethans missed tackle.
My take is that our forwards lost composure and cohesion under pressure and lacked leadership. TJ was impacted as was Ratima.
We still should have won if Will Jordan had not badly overrun the coming pass.
And I did wonder why Beauden changed direction when Dmac was sending HIM the relieving pass under pressure, and not Jordie. Did either call for it?
Anyways, well done Argentina. Huge effort from their loosies and forward subs and a bit of luck of the bounce.I think we need to bolster our loosies for the next one. I want Cane starting and Finau at 6. Tamaiti into 23 as a ball carrier. Jordan for Reece. And maybe Ratima starts, to give Dmac more time.
A new coaching group is fully entitled to try out various combos and tactics!
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
BB should stay on the bench. They found a great role for him and was very successful and then decided to change it. Why?
Perofeta injury. So it's either BB or the choice of two green fullbacks. Makes sense to me.
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
BB should stay on the bench. They found a great role for him and was very successful and then decided to change it. Why?
Perofeta injury. So it's either BB or the choice of two green fullbacks. Makes sense to me.
I dont have any beef with Perofeta but I dont think he is going to cut the mustard. The top teams will have no problem dealing with him.
If we want to get back to number 1 we need to find some bruisers and some pace.
We need teams to be afraid to kick the ball badly to us. There has to be a counter attacking threat.
When teams (and im thinking of the Boks and Ireland) are lining up against the likes of Perenara, ALB, Perofeta, Beaudy, Havili and their ilk, they dont really think they are in for a tough day at the office.
Rieko who isnt a centre for me at least gives his opposite number kittens as he knows he could be gassed on the outside.
We need some muscle and some pace, even if they are one trick ponies. You need to be able to drop slow ball off to a Bundee Aki or Nonu or Kaino type to just make you those shitty 4 yards and recycle.
In the quest for "footballers" we have ended up with a load of well rounded "nice" players who are 6 or 7 out of 10 in every facet, but we dont have many 9's or 10's. Same with the back row. Honest toilers and nothing more.
Jordan has "10" pace. Roigard has "10" pace for a scrum half.
At the moment we have no points of difference over the other top teams, bar Jordan, Savea, Clarke and Roigard and maybe Aumua if he can master the nuts and bolts of the game. He has the x-factor but his career could go either way after yesterday.
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I just rewatched a lot of the match after reading some of the online comment on the match. Just don't get all the parochial bs and condemnation that is being spewed out. Give the coaches and players a break ffs. Pumas played far better than expected.
I think the coaches probably planned two different teams for Argies as a trial to pick best combos for SA and Oz. They just did not expect to drop one at home first.Unlike most posters I thought it was a huge late match series of execution errors by AB forwards that lost us the match, not tactics or individuals. After a near 50 20 it was a long string of forward errors that killed us.
I thought the penalties against Ethan and Dalton were marginal and perhaps Sititi too. The lineout and scrum turnovers were bad execution. Ardies pass from the base seemed unnecessary and wild. But the try was more due to Ethans missed tackle.
My take is that our forwards lost composure and cohesion under pressure and lacked leadership. TJ was impacted as was Ratima.
We still should have won if Will Jordan had not badly overrun the coming pass.
And I did wonder why Beauden changed direction when Dmac was sending HIM the relieving pass under pressure, and not Jordie. Did either call for it?
Anyways, well done Argentina. Huge effort from their loosies and forward subs and a bit of luck of the bounce.I think we need to bolster our loosies for the next one. I want Cane starting and Finau at 6. Tamaiti into 23 as a ball carrier. Jordan for Reece. And maybe Ratima starts, to give Dmac more time.
A new coaching group is fully entitled to try out various combos and tactics!
