Americas cup
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i did not have "kiwiwomble is an apologist for rich fluffybunnies fucking over NZ" on my bingo card
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Nah @Snowy is spot on. ETNZ screwed Akl over massively and knowingly.
Akl were never going to get a return on the infrastructure investment they made for the last defence particularly once it was affected by Covid meaning no overseas visitors. Dalton always knew Akl had gambled on a successful defence to make money in 2024. Council and central govt offered him $100 mill to defend again in Akl but he decided to cash in and go out for a bidding war.
Ironically ETNZ aren't the holders RNZYS is. I wish they'd told Dalton to fuck off we will find another defender.
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Grant Dalton is just Sir Peter Blake from Wish anyway
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@Snowy said in Americas cup:
@Machpants said in Americas cup:
Don't get you snowy, they had public money for the last defence, it was in NZ. They have had no public money for this defence, it is not in NZ?
The "understanding" is that the winner hosts it. That would be in Auckland. For any return on investment it would have needed to happen again. TNZ were representing RNZYS - in Auckland.
No it wasn't written down, but that it how it has historically happened and was expected.
I disagree. All the business cases had to be predicated on teh risk that we lost the cup. Then you're not hosting any more.
Defence costs money - serious money. We don't have it ... so you have to find it somewhere. Reality is that sponsorship and TV revenue is all bigger if you host in the NH summer at good timezones ... so that's where they have gone.
It's not great, but I understand 'why'. The costs also blow up because host cities (like RWC2011 or APEC) use it as an excuse to rehabilitate a bunch of areas. So there are costs hung on the event that are very much not directly associated with hosting/defending.
@nzzp said in Americas cup:
All the business cases had to be predicated on teh risk that we lost the cup. Then you're not hosting any more.
As I said.though the return would come if it was held a second time in NZ and the money was to give them a better chance of doing that,
@nzzp said in Americas cup:
It's not great, but I understand 'why
I understand why as well. I just don't like it. Or "them" for doing it. Believe me it's not often I would even bother trying to take a moral ground! It doesn't suit me.
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NGL I'd rather be based in Spain too.
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@Snowy said in Americas cup:
@Machpants said in Americas cup:
Don't get you snowy, they had public money for the last defence, it was in NZ. They have had no public money for this defence, it is not in NZ?
The "understanding" is that the winner hosts it. That would be in Auckland. For any return on investment it would have needed to happen again. TNZ were representing RNZYS - in Auckland.
No it wasn't written down, but that it how it has historically happened and was expected. A one and done, we're out of here has not happened previously (that I am aware of). Even Dirty Den was representing San Diego YC when it went there IIRC.
except for 3 of the 4 before 2021.......
@Bovidae said in Americas cup:
I'm pretty sure that the benefits of the injection of government/council money was to be realised in the next AC. There weren't many overseas visitors in 2021 due to Covid.
and that was ETNZ's fault? if they've only secured funding for one defence in NZ...and then covid screws tourism for that defence...they just have to suck it up?
@Kiwiwomble said in Americas cup:
except for 3 of the 4 before 2021.......
I was deliberately ignoring the landlocked country aspect of it. -
Nah @Snowy is spot on. ETNZ screwed Akl over massively and knowingly.
Akl were never going to get a return on the infrastructure investment they made for the last defence particularly once it was affected by Covid meaning no overseas visitors. Dalton always knew Akl had gambled on a successful defence to make money in 2024. Council and central govt offered him $100 mill to defend again in Akl but he decided to cash in and go out for a bidding war.
Ironically ETNZ aren't the holders RNZYS is. I wish they'd told Dalton to fuck off we will find another defender.
@dogmeat said in Americas cup:
Nah @Snowy is spot on. ETNZ screwed Akl over massively and knowingly.
Akl were never going to get a return on the infrastructure investment they made for the last defence...
especially if they'd lost it...any business case can only have been made on one defence...and if it wasnt then it was a stupid fucking decision...but that would be on auckland council and not just ETNZ
and ETNZ cant be the whipping boys for covid fucked something up
@mariner4life said in Americas cup:
i did not have "kiwiwomble is an apologist for rich fluffybunnies fucking over NZ" on my bingo card
like to keep you on your toes, next week i'll be taking the "Trumps not that bad angle" in the US politics thread
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@nzzp said in Americas cup:
All the business cases had to be predicated on teh risk that we lost the cup. Then you're not hosting any more.
As I said.though the return would come if it was held a second time in NZ and the money was to give them a better chance of doing that,
@nzzp said in Americas cup:
It's not great, but I understand 'why
I understand why as well. I just don't like it. Or "them" for doing it. Believe me it's not often I would even bother trying to take a moral ground! It doesn't suit me.
@Snowy said in Americas cup:
@nzzp said in Americas cup:
All the business cases had to be predicated on teh risk that we lost the cup. Then you're not hosting any more.
As I said.though the return would come if it was held a second time in NZ and the money was to give them a better chance of doing that,
Look, this will sound simplistic, but if that's the basis fo the business case, surely you'd contract to keep in NZ. I mean, it's $100M, this is the big time. In business, that's weak from central/local Govt.
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@Snowy said in Americas cup:
@Canes4life said in Americas cup:
I'm not a big fan of us taking part in the Louis Vuitton regatta,
Who's "us"? That mob with NZ in the name certainly isn't (I might be a little bitter about the whole theft thing).
The whole thing is wrong. The defender is in the LV and it's being held in Spain.
Who won it last time again???
im not going to argue with the idea it "should" be raced in NZ, would be awesome and much preferred...but its also not the first time a defender has taken to a neutral venue and if the alternatives were genuinely loosing it because we didnt have the money to compete or no one coming to NZ to challenge and the whole thing slowly dying, i think we have to go with it
Ive seen it suggested several times on socials ETNZ have killed the AC moving away from traditional monohulls....its revisionist excuse to beat up on ETNZ ignoring it was Oracle that moved to Cats
the one thing they could have done is commit to bring ever second regatta back to NZ or something
@Kiwiwomble said in Americas cup:
@Snowy said in Americas cup:
@Canes4life said in Americas cup:
I'm not a big fan of us taking part in the Louis Vuitton regatta,
Who's "us"? That mob with NZ in the name certainly isn't (I might be a little bitter about the whole theft thing).
The whole thing is wrong. The defender is in the LV and it's being held in Spain.
Who won it last time again???
im not going to argue with the idea it "should" be raced in NZ, would be awesome and much preferred...but its also not the first time a defender has taken to a neutral venue and if the alternatives were genuinely loosing it because we didnt have the money to compete or no one coming to NZ to challenge and the whole thing slowly dying, i think we have to go with it
Ive seen it suggested several times on socials ETNZ have killed the AC moving away from traditional monohulls....its revisionist excuse to beat up on ETNZ ignoring it was Oracle that moved to Cats
the one thing they could have done is commit to bring ever second regatta back to NZ or something
Maybe they would have moved there anyway, but Dirty Dennis Connor built the first AC catamaran...
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@Kiwiwomble said in Americas cup:
@Snowy said in Americas cup:
@Canes4life said in Americas cup:
I'm not a big fan of us taking part in the Louis Vuitton regatta,
Who's "us"? That mob with NZ in the name certainly isn't (I might be a little bitter about the whole theft thing).
The whole thing is wrong. The defender is in the LV and it's being held in Spain.
Who won it last time again???
im not going to argue with the idea it "should" be raced in NZ, would be awesome and much preferred...but its also not the first time a defender has taken to a neutral venue and if the alternatives were genuinely loosing it because we didnt have the money to compete or no one coming to NZ to challenge and the whole thing slowly dying, i think we have to go with it
Ive seen it suggested several times on socials ETNZ have killed the AC moving away from traditional monohulls....its revisionist excuse to beat up on ETNZ ignoring it was Oracle that moved to Cats
the one thing they could have done is commit to bring ever second regatta back to NZ or something
Maybe they would have moved there anyway, but Dirty Dennis Connor built the first AC catamaran...
@canefan true, had forgotten about that
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@Snowy said in Americas cup:
@nzzp said in Americas cup:
All the business cases had to be predicated on teh risk that we lost the cup. Then you're not hosting any more.
As I said.though the return would come if it was held a second time in NZ and the money was to give them a better chance of doing that,
Look, this will sound simplistic, but if that's the basis fo the business case, surely you'd contract to keep in NZ. I mean, it's $100M, this is the big time. In business, that's weak from central/local Govt.
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I remember seeing that. It was a technological marvel. KZ1 pushed the boundaries of traditional sail boats, their boat looked like aliens built it, with it's non-fabric rigid sail. Ahead of it's time, and according to the race rules we should have rammed and sunk it in the prestart, taken our penalty and sailed onto victory
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@Snowy check out the economic impact assessment too. Covid I suspect, but damn.
This evaluation has identified a net benefit to Auckland of hosting the 36th America’s Cup (AC36) of -$91.6
million (benefit-cost ratio of 0.85) and a net benefit to New Zealand (including Auckland) of -$156.1 million
(benefit-cost ratio of 0.79). These figures are based on financial impacts (represented by actual or expected
financial transactions) and non-financial impacts (unpriced social, cultural, or environmental effects).Table 1 is a dooozy
https://www.majorevents.govt.nz/dmsdocument/15674-36th-americas-cup-impact-evaluation-report
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@nzzp Cheers. QI read of the whole thing.
I do wish they wouldn't include non-quantifiable "stuff" like "Non-user benefits / Non-financial / $23.4 / Social value accruing to non-attendees (option value/existence value/national pride).
How do you really put a $ value on the national pride emotional response from by Trevor in Gore?
At least the report does separate them out, which obviously makes it an even worse decision. Especially if a second one isn't held here, but I wasn't getting into that, merely that TNZ acted in bad faith, hence my "theft" comment. I don't even mind the public money going in, I just don't like people running away with it.
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I remember seeing that. It was a technological marvel. KZ1 pushed the boundaries of traditional sail boats, their boat looked like aliens built it, with it's non-fabric rigid sail. Ahead of it's time, and according to the race rules we should have rammed and sunk it in the prestart, taken our penalty and sailed onto victory
@canefan said in Americas cup:
and according to the race rules we should have rammed and sunk it in the prestart,
and that right there is how you broaden the appeal. Allow ramming as a legit tactic.
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@canefan said in Americas cup:
and according to the race rules we should have rammed and sunk it in the prestart,
and that right there is how you broaden the appeal. Allow ramming as a legit tactic.
@mariner4life said in Americas cup:
@canefan said in Americas cup:
and according to the race rules we should have rammed and sunk it in the prestart,
and that right there is how you broaden the appeal. Allow ramming as a legit tactic.
At the time it felt like the design was against the spirit of the rules. But at the end of the day they just outsmarted us
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@canefan said in Americas cup:
and according to the race rules we should have rammed and sunk it in the prestart,
and that right there is how you broaden the appeal. Allow ramming as a legit tactic.
@mariner4life said in Americas cup:
@canefan said in Americas cup:
and according to the race rules we should have rammed and sunk it in the prestart,
and that right there is how you broaden the appeal. Allow ramming as a legit tactic.
boarding parties, proper sing across on ropes deal, then you have to work out how many extra people to take and if their extra weight is worth it
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@dogmeat said in Americas cup:
Nah @Snowy is spot on. ETNZ screwed Akl over massively and knowingly.
Akl were never going to get a return on the infrastructure investment they made for the last defence...
especially if they'd lost it...any business case can only have been made on one defence...and if it wasnt then it was a stupid fucking decision...but that would be on auckland council and not just ETNZ
and ETNZ cant be the whipping boys for covid fucked something up
@mariner4life said in Americas cup:
i did not have "kiwiwomble is an apologist for rich fluffybunnies fucking over NZ" on my bingo card
like to keep you on your toes, next week i'll be taking the "Trumps not that bad angle" in the US politics thread
@Kiwiwomble It was pretty obvious that as long as they kept the team together that TNZ defend easily. They were so far ahead of the competition in Bermuda and then they wrote the rules.
There was a Heads of Agreement for Akl to host this time too. Dalton weaseled out of it.
Clearly it should have been more watertight but it gives the lie to the myth that this defence is about anything other than money.
The venues shit, the racings shit but the cash register is humming. The TNZ CEO is personally doing quite nicely too.
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@mariner4life said in Americas cup:
@canefan said in Americas cup:
and according to the race rules we should have rammed and sunk it in the prestart,
and that right there is how you broaden the appeal. Allow ramming as a legit tactic.
boarding parties, proper sing across on ropes deal, then you have to work out how many extra people to take and if their extra weight is worth it
@Kiwiwomble said in Americas cup:
@mariner4life said in Americas cup:
@canefan said in Americas cup:
and according to the race rules we should have rammed and sunk it in the prestart,
and that right there is how you broaden the appeal. Allow ramming as a legit tactic.
boarding parties, proper sing across on ropes deal
This is boat racing, not a Gilbert and Sullivan production.
