All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham
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@delicatessen Kicking off turnover possession can be a great option of course, and so can running.
We'd had one phase since the turnover, so I don't think I'm quite advocating for holding the ball forever. Building some pressure has merit - you keep the ball in attacking areas and more often than not you get players offside - particularly when you have guys like Sititi, Aumua, Tuipolotu making metres.
Re premeditation, yeah there can be problems with that. How you attack should be based on what the opposition are doing / have done, not what you've decided in advance they might be likely to do. I think that's exactly what McKenzie has done: they're playing a rush, so he's aware that the kick is an option, the winger turned in, and so he passed. It's picking the time for the kick that is the tricky bit, and for me we are trying it way too often - and there's context for that too in Barrett's other kicks - the one that went dead wasn't pretty.@reprobate we're a bit closer to consensus I think.
Have options, that comes from showing that we're willing to use any option, but don't lets criticize kicking for it's own sake.
And be better at kicking. Big gains if we could do that.
Oh and also don't kick if we're losing and it's within 4 minutes of full-time. Ever. Do not do this. Unforgiveable. Punishable by death via cheese grater.
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@reprobate we're a bit closer to consensus I think.
Have options, that comes from showing that we're willing to use any option, but don't lets criticize kicking for it's own sake.
And be better at kicking. Big gains if we could do that.
Oh and also don't kick if we're losing and it's within 4 minutes of full-time. Ever. Do not do this. Unforgiveable. Punishable by death via cheese grater.
@delicatessen yeah agree with all of that, I just don't want to see us kicking for kicking's sake - only if it's really the best option. There are plenty of times in games where we don't have turnover ball on the 22, or an overlap - if there's nothing on and we aren't making metres then something contestable / creating a mess can be good. And there are some clear situations where a kick pass is the only way the winger is getting the ball and/or they are unmarked.
I'd add "be better at chasing" - which to be fair does appear to be happening somewhat at least. -
Also not related to the kicking, but on-field decisions: the tap we took instead of a scrum - that was a penalty rather than a free kick - for Itoje off his feet. Pretty poor decision after winning scrum penalties.
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Also not related to the kicking, but on-field decisions: the tap we took instead of a scrum - that was a penalty rather than a free kick - for Itoje off his feet. Pretty poor decision after winning scrum penalties.
All our poor decisions may be related to a newish group who are trying to find their way (although with a bunch of the old leadership group still there, you wonder why they can't expedite the learning process). We appear to be trying to force the play much of the time, or get undone with poor decisions or simply poor execution. And yet I thought the group that closed the test played a closer brand of percentage rugby to that which I want to see. We are making progress in baby steps, hopefully sometime this tour we can put all the pieces together and open up a can of whoopass on someone. Preferably before we get to Italy
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I was trying to have a link to the full game. Sorry.
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I was trying to have a link to the full game. Sorry.
This post is deleted! -
I was trying to have a link to the full game. Sorry.
This post is deleted! -
@delicatessen I think the risks of turning the ball over are much lower, and if you can't trust an AB 10 to make an accurate long pass, then who can you trust? There are times when it's the best option, but I don't think that was one of them.
Re the 2nd pic, thanks for the comparison. It was very good by McKenzie, shaping to kick turned the winger in, then the pass to Jordan's outside shoulder was right on the money. I don't find the pictures very different to be honest - If Barrett had run, and Ioane slid slightly outside, you have Telea 1 on 1 as per the try. I think the whole thing looks premeditated too if you look at Jordan and Jordie on the inside.
I think the context matters here too: we're losing at this point in the game, we're hot on attack off turnover ball and the previous ruck we had good momentum from Tuipolotu. To me, kicking that ball away is just crazy / a total lack of patience.@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I think the whole thing looks premeditated too if you look at Jordan and Jordie on the inside.
I do think this is a good point, same as what you say about a lack of patience. Personally I also think attacking kicks are better as part of a pre-meditated move rather than off counter-attack, as was the case here, as you need to catch the defence off guard in order to actually get a kick through.
But it's also still the case that you're up against a really well-organized defence outside of their 22. I can't imagine the English defence breaking down by Barrett having a carry and Ioane running an arc in this scenario. The defence is constantly thinking on its feet as well: they are looking for ways to isolate the Kiwi attackers and pressuring the breakdown, and all of the best cleaners are on the other side of the ruck.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I think the whole thing looks premeditated too if you look at Jordan and Jordie on the inside.
I do think this is a good point, same as what you say about a lack of patience. Personally I also think attacking kicks are better as part of a pre-meditated move rather than off counter-attack, as was the case here, as you need to catch the defence off guard in order to actually get a kick through.
But it's also still the case that you're up against a really well-organized defence outside of their 22. I can't imagine the English defence breaking down by Barrett having a carry and Ioane running an arc in this scenario. The defence is constantly thinking on its feet as well: they are looking for ways to isolate the Kiwi attackers and pressuring the breakdown, and all of the best cleaners are on the other side of the ruck.
@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I think the whole thing looks premeditated too if you look at Jordan and Jordie on the inside.
I do think this is a good point, same as what you say about a lack of patience. Personally I also think attacking kicks are better as part of a pre-meditated move rather than off counter-attack, as was the case here, as you need to catch the defence off guard in order to actually get a kick through.
But it's also still the case that you're up against a really well-organized defence outside of their 22. I can't imagine the English defence breaking down by Barrett having a carry and Ioane running an arc in this scenario. The defence is constantly thinking on its feet as well: they are looking for ways to isolate the Kiwi attackers and pressuring the breakdown, and all of the best cleaners are on the other side of the ruck.
Tele'a didn't seem to respect English defence that much...
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@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I think the whole thing looks premeditated too if you look at Jordan and Jordie on the inside.
I do think this is a good point, same as what you say about a lack of patience. Personally I also think attacking kicks are better as part of a pre-meditated move rather than off counter-attack, as was the case here, as you need to catch the defence off guard in order to actually get a kick through.
But it's also still the case that you're up against a really well-organized defence outside of their 22. I can't imagine the English defence breaking down by Barrett having a carry and Ioane running an arc in this scenario. The defence is constantly thinking on its feet as well: they are looking for ways to isolate the Kiwi attackers and pressuring the breakdown, and all of the best cleaners are on the other side of the ruck.
Tele'a didn't seem to respect English defence that much...
@nostrildamus That's fair. "Give the ball to Mark" seemed to have been as good a strategy as any.
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Not just the ABs
I find it fascinating that teams will elect to put in a box kick down the short side from a scrum and/or ruck when on their own 40
A good execution may take you to the opposition’s 30-22m where invariably they will gather and either kick straight back or run it back
Alternatively a pass into midfield could see the 10, 12, 13 going for a 50-22
A far higher % of success IMHO
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@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I think the whole thing looks premeditated too if you look at Jordan and Jordie on the inside.
I do think this is a good point, same as what you say about a lack of patience. Personally I also think attacking kicks are better as part of a pre-meditated move rather than off counter-attack, as was the case here, as you need to catch the defence off guard in order to actually get a kick through.
But it's also still the case that you're up against a really well-organized defence outside of their 22. I can't imagine the English defence breaking down by Barrett having a carry and Ioane running an arc in this scenario. The defence is constantly thinking on its feet as well: they are looking for ways to isolate the Kiwi attackers and pressuring the breakdown, and all of the best cleaners are on the other side of the ruck.
@Mauss Yeah look it's not like it's a chance gone begging or anything, but it is a good attacking position (on both sides), on the 2nd phase after a turnover, with us behind on the scoreboard - spend some time there ball in hand, get a penalty I'd be happy with.
I felt the English were good but not great defensively, we were making metres and scoring tries, and they were not making heaps of turnovers - not good enough in my eyes to justify kicking that sort of ball away. -
@Mauss Yeah look it's not like it's a chance gone begging or anything, but it is a good attacking position (on both sides), on the 2nd phase after a turnover, with us behind on the scoreboard - spend some time there ball in hand, get a penalty I'd be happy with.
I felt the English were good but not great defensively, we were making metres and scoring tries, and they were not making heaps of turnovers - not good enough in my eyes to justify kicking that sort of ball away.@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
spend some time there ball in hand
To be honest, that's pretty much exactly what Jason Holland said during the halftime interview - "We'll look to make England make some tackles when we got the ball" - so Barrett might have gone a bit off script at times.
I still think the kick-option was on in the second example. Gardner wasn't penalizing English transgressions so maybe Barrett felt they needed to score quickly off turnover ball. The real bad decision was his kick around halfway when it went dead: it was poor execution but also just not the right time for it.
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Looooool was that written by Razor's personal PR arm?
What a ridiculous fucking "article"
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Jesus, so Razor’s record is on Fozzie?
Fuck me days, the media was so up Razor’s ass now they have to pedal a new story when he comes in and doesn’t turn out to actually be the messiah.
@gt12 said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Jesus, so Razor’s record is on Fozzie?
Fuck me days, the media was so up Razor’s ass now they have to pedal a new story when he comes in and doesn’t turn out to actually be the messiah.
Has Razor inherited a 22-man black hole?
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@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I think the whole thing looks premeditated too if you look at Jordan and Jordie on the inside.
I do think this is a good point, same as what you say about a lack of patience. Personally I also think attacking kicks are better as part of a pre-meditated move rather than off counter-attack, as was the case here, as you need to catch the defence off guard in order to actually get a kick through.
But it's also still the case that you're up against a really well-organized defence outside of their 22. I can't imagine the English defence breaking down by Barrett having a carry and Ioane running an arc in this scenario. The defence is constantly thinking on its feet as well: they are looking for ways to isolate the Kiwi attackers and pressuring the breakdown, and all of the best cleaners are on the other side of the ruck.
@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@reprobate said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I think the whole thing looks premeditated too if you look at Jordan and Jordie on the inside.
I do think this is a good point, same as what you say about a lack of patience. Personally I also think attacking kicks are better as part of a pre-meditated move rather than off counter-attack, as was the case here, as you need to catch the defence off guard in order to actually get a kick through.
Potentially thats the reason this was a grubber - the intention was more to kick toward space with a bit of pace, the desired result being either a defensive lineout 5 out or one of the the chasers regathering.
Pre-meditated and counter-attack aren't mutually exclusive, especially second phase counter-attack.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Jesus, so Razor’s record is on Fozzie?
Fuck me days, the media was so up Razor’s ass now they have to pedal a new story when he comes in and doesn’t turn out to actually be the messiah.
Has Razor inherited a 22-man black hole?
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
@gt12 said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
Jesus, so Razor’s record is on Fozzie?
Fuck me days, the media was so up Razor’s ass now they have to pedal a new story when he comes in and doesn’t turn out to actually be the messiah.
Has Razor inherited a 22-man black hole?
We’ve already had the cantab mafia changing the tune from shit coaching to shit cattle, but this is another step forward using the Barry Schwartz approach (the secret to happiness is low expectations).
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I know there’s a lot of criticism on this forum towards the incessant turn to kicking by Barrett in this game, but, rewatching the game, I’d argue that the kick-option was the right choice a lot of the time, but it was Barrett’s mixed execution of his kicks which led to mixed outcomes. Charlie Morgan of The Telegraph already highlighted this example around the first minute of the game. Barrett, following an over the top lineout win by Savea, receives the pass around the halfway line and puts up a great wipers kick. The kick is regathered by Telea, who offloads to Ioane, leading to a linebreak and the England defence in disarray. Several Abs have realigned to the openside and this is the picture:
Caleb Clarke, who is out of frame here, is the target for the cross kick. Taylor and Savea are on his inside with only George Furbank covering the English backfield (Marcus Smith is all the way on the opposite side, with 14 English players being bunched up within 20 metres from each other).
What saves England is Itoje’s chargedown of Barrett’s kick, with Barrett probably needing to be just a little bit further back in order to avoid the oncoming rush defence.
Something very similar occurred early in the second half, where the kick option was the right call, only for the execution to fall just short. After Sititi rips out the ball and bats the ball back to Barrett around the 10-metre line, the latter passes to Clarke who breaks through the English defensive line. Following (another) great carry from Tuipulotu, Barrett has called for a kick, with multiple runners (Jordan, Jordie Barrett, Ioane, Telea) preparing to rush:
The kick is the best option here, as the defensive line is solidly set, yet only Marcus Smith (outside the frame) is covering the backfield, with Furbank up in the line. Barrett’s choice of kick, however, the grubber, is the wrong one, as there is very little space between the England defenders and they already know that a kick is coming following the body positioning of the Kiwi backs. The right choice, I’d argue, would be the short chip kick into the space between the English defensive line and Marcus Smith, allowing for either one of the All Black backs to regather or pressuring Smith as well as the potential counterruck. Again, Barrett needs to start just a few metres further back, rather than be so close to the line, in order to execute this option.
One of a first five-eights’ most important skills is their ability to orchestrate the space between his own outside backs and the opposition defenders. Taking a few extra steps forward in order to play flat and manipulate the speed of the defensive line against itself, or taking a few back in order to exploit the space behind, the first five’s orchestration of space through his own subtle movement is the key to a successful attack. Barrett has a great array of kicks at his disposal, but what he often still lacks is his feel for the defensive line. A bit more detail around his own positioning, and the ABs’ attack could’ve been a lot more efficient at Twickenham.
@Mauss said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
I know there’s a lot of criticism on this forum towards the incessant turn to kicking by Barrett in this game, but, rewatching the game, I’d argue that the kick-option was the right choice a lot of the time, but it was Barrett’s mixed execution of his kicks which led to mixed outcomes.
Absolutely agree. I posted during the half time break that he was picking his moments pretty well but that there needed to be better execution.
IMO there were only two kicks that were ill advised and not only could he have put the ball through hands, when he did kick he advanced to the line and didn’t give himself space to even provide the opportunity to execute a better outcome.
