All Blacks v France
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@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v France:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France:
Huh, I thought Scooter had one of his better games on Saturday. Looked to be getting back to his bustling type play.
I wonder whether the captaincy has taken something out of his game .
It was like last year he took on the role as the physical enforcer , he was our best lock with Brodie and Sam available , and now with the c next to his name he has reigned himself in and doesn’t seem to play near the edge .
Maybe he's trying to work it out himself. That player is still in there, perhaps he's feeling the responsibility and not wanting to be a card magnet, and overcompensating slightly
@canefan said in All Blacks v France:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v France:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France:
Huh, I thought Scooter had one of his better games on Saturday. Looked to be getting back to his bustling type play.
I wonder whether the captaincy has taken something out of his game .
It was like last year he took on the role as the physical enforcer , he was our best lock with Brodie and Sam available , and now with the c next to his name he has reigned himself in and doesn’t seem to play near the edge .
Maybe he's trying to work it out himself. That player is still in there, perhaps he's feeling the responsibility and not wanting to be a card magnet, and overcompensating slightly
That makes a lot of sense. I think he's (understandably) struggling a bit with the captaincy at times and had Vaa'i not stepped up we'd have been in a bit of trouble.
I think he'll be a bit more comfortable in the role next year but competition is def. starting to grow for his spot.
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Thought is was our players who ran out of gas around half time. We lost a few turnovers when we put someone through a gap (williams the best example) and left them 10-15m up the field with no one even trying to get there to support. That is attitude mixed with tiredness.
We had almost no variation in our attack all game. 10 never kicked for variation so no stress on the defence. (except BBs daft kick passes)
They knew what was coming every time and we just kept serving it up.Really liked that while we are playing a high risk late passing game there was no panic if someone got tackled and was pushed back 5m or so. The team got back promptly and calmly and started again.
Great game, nothing in it, we are improving all the time, not the finished article but good signs.
Just have to beat Italy ..... dont want to take them lightly.@Lancaster-Park said in All Blacks v France:
Thought is was our players who ran out of gas around half time
Yeah, have to wonder if that's the case.
Many of these guys have a heavy workload playing in all the games.
Some players out of form (Savea) they've tried to play into form by playing but maybe a bit of fatigue has affected them getting there.
No longer are we the fittest and finish stronger, we also seem off the pace in the overall pace of the game...
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@Mauss said in All Blacks v France:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v France:
They don’t really have a bigger pack to select.
Perhaps bigger is not the right word. Players who thrive more in the tight spaces, something like that? Against France, NZ tried to keep the ball tight and go through the middle in the French 22 but the pick and go was very messy. Cleaners were often unable to keep their feet at the ruck and carriers didn't dominate contact, leading to a lack of forward momentum and French turnover ball.
Ireland’s win against South Africa in Durban came after selecting Beirne at six and playing more directly. They then tried a similar line-up against NZ (without playing as direct) and it didn’t work. I don’t want to simplify things too much, but with how close the top teams are (with Argentina and Australia on the rise), I’d think a horses for courses-approach might be best. In this approach, you’d have something like a "Crusader" gameplan for certain opponents (Ireland, England, Australia, Argentina) while taking on a Cotter/Schmidt/Blues-style for others like South Africa and France. The latter means more aggressive ruck defence, lots of blindside switches in attack, and picking players who excel in the pick and go and are able to dominate contact in close (Tu’ungafasi, Sotutu, Savea, Taukei’aho, Tuipulotu, etc.).
I don’t think it’s particularly likely that Robertson is going to go for something like this, but he can’t keep losing to teams with this playing style without coming onto serious pressure. I also don’t think this is unique to Robertson. Anyone who has been watching NZ U20s rugby for the past 12 years will probably have noticed how much these teams struggle with forward packs who stay tight together and flood the breakdown on attack and defence (some examples: SA 2012, ’14, ’19; FR 2018, ’23, ’24; WL 2012, ’19; IRL 2016; AU 2019, ’23). Those are a lot of coaches – Penney, Boyd, Robertson, Philpott, Laidlaw, Gibbes – who haven’t been able to successfully tackle this issue.
Robertson is a big believer in cohesion so that would go against this sort of mixed approach. I guess we’ll find out in the coming years whether cohesion is enough to overcome this close quarter forward-style.
It's totally philosophical.
If we wanted to play like France we totally could. But we are playing to outflank.
France play like an old school pack. Run hard as fuck, bash the ruck.
Neither is better than the other really. It comes down to if you do what you want AND stop the other team doing what they want.The ABs should watch Isaiah Yeo from Penrith. He's the master of the pass out the back, but if it's not on, he takes 12 metres.
If we can learn to make the pass while actually running we'll be unstoppable
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France:
@Mauss said in All Blacks v France:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v France:
They don’t really have a bigger pack to select.
Perhaps bigger is not the right word. Players who thrive more in the tight spaces, something like that? Against France, NZ tried to keep the ball tight and go through the middle in the French 22 but the pick and go was very messy. Cleaners were often unable to keep their feet at the ruck and carriers didn't dominate contact, leading to a lack of forward momentum and French turnover ball.
Ireland’s win against South Africa in Durban came after selecting Beirne at six and playing more directly. They then tried a similar line-up against NZ (without playing as direct) and it didn’t work. I don’t want to simplify things too much, but with how close the top teams are (with Argentina and Australia on the rise), I’d think a horses for courses-approach might be best. In this approach, you’d have something like a "Crusader" gameplan for certain opponents (Ireland, England, Australia, Argentina) while taking on a Cotter/Schmidt/Blues-style for others like South Africa and France. The latter means more aggressive ruck defence, lots of blindside switches in attack, and picking players who excel in the pick and go and are able to dominate contact in close (Tu’ungafasi, Sotutu, Savea, Taukei’aho, Tuipulotu, etc.).
I don’t think it’s particularly likely that Robertson is going to go for something like this, but he can’t keep losing to teams with this playing style without coming onto serious pressure. I also don’t think this is unique to Robertson. Anyone who has been watching NZ U20s rugby for the past 12 years will probably have noticed how much these teams struggle with forward packs who stay tight together and flood the breakdown on attack and defence (some examples: SA 2012, ’14, ’19; FR 2018, ’23, ’24; WL 2012, ’19; IRL 2016; AU 2019, ’23). Those are a lot of coaches – Penney, Boyd, Robertson, Philpott, Laidlaw, Gibbes – who haven’t been able to successfully tackle this issue.
Robertson is a big believer in cohesion so that would go against this sort of mixed approach. I guess we’ll find out in the coming years whether cohesion is enough to overcome this close quarter forward-style.
It's totally philosophical.
If we wanted to play like France we totally could. But we are playing to outflank.
France play like an old school pack. Run hard as fuck, bash the ruck.
Neither is better than the other really. It comes down to if you do what you want AND stop the other team doing what they want.The ABs should watch Isaiah Yeo from Penrith. He's the master of the pass out the back, but if it's not on, he takes 12 metres.
If we can learn to make the pass while actually running we'll be unstoppable
If only we had some big munters who were athletic and had ball skills...
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France:
@Mauss said in All Blacks v France:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v France:
They don’t really have a bigger pack to select.
Perhaps bigger is not the right word. Players who thrive more in the tight spaces, something like that? Against France, NZ tried to keep the ball tight and go through the middle in the French 22 but the pick and go was very messy. Cleaners were often unable to keep their feet at the ruck and carriers didn't dominate contact, leading to a lack of forward momentum and French turnover ball.
Ireland’s win against South Africa in Durban came after selecting Beirne at six and playing more directly. They then tried a similar line-up against NZ (without playing as direct) and it didn’t work. I don’t want to simplify things too much, but with how close the top teams are (with Argentina and Australia on the rise), I’d think a horses for courses-approach might be best. In this approach, you’d have something like a "Crusader" gameplan for certain opponents (Ireland, England, Australia, Argentina) while taking on a Cotter/Schmidt/Blues-style for others like South Africa and France. The latter means more aggressive ruck defence, lots of blindside switches in attack, and picking players who excel in the pick and go and are able to dominate contact in close (Tu’ungafasi, Sotutu, Savea, Taukei’aho, Tuipulotu, etc.).
I don’t think it’s particularly likely that Robertson is going to go for something like this, but he can’t keep losing to teams with this playing style without coming onto serious pressure. I also don’t think this is unique to Robertson. Anyone who has been watching NZ U20s rugby for the past 12 years will probably have noticed how much these teams struggle with forward packs who stay tight together and flood the breakdown on attack and defence (some examples: SA 2012, ’14, ’19; FR 2018, ’23, ’24; WL 2012, ’19; IRL 2016; AU 2019, ’23). Those are a lot of coaches – Penney, Boyd, Robertson, Philpott, Laidlaw, Gibbes – who haven’t been able to successfully tackle this issue.
Robertson is a big believer in cohesion so that would go against this sort of mixed approach. I guess we’ll find out in the coming years whether cohesion is enough to overcome this close quarter forward-style.
It's totally philosophical.
If we wanted to play like France we totally could. But we are playing to outflank.
France play like an old school pack. Run hard as fuck, bash the ruck.
Neither is better than the other really. It comes down to if you do what you want AND stop the other team doing what they want.The ABs should watch Isaiah Yeo from Penrith. He's the master of the pass out the back, but if it's not on, he takes 12 metres.
If we can learn to make the pass while actually running we'll be unstoppable
If only we had some big munters who were athletic and had ball skills...
@antipodean said in All Blacks v France:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France:
@Mauss said in All Blacks v France:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks v France:
They don’t really have a bigger pack to select.
Perhaps bigger is not the right word. Players who thrive more in the tight spaces, something like that? Against France, NZ tried to keep the ball tight and go through the middle in the French 22 but the pick and go was very messy. Cleaners were often unable to keep their feet at the ruck and carriers didn't dominate contact, leading to a lack of forward momentum and French turnover ball.
Ireland’s win against South Africa in Durban came after selecting Beirne at six and playing more directly. They then tried a similar line-up against NZ (without playing as direct) and it didn’t work. I don’t want to simplify things too much, but with how close the top teams are (with Argentina and Australia on the rise), I’d think a horses for courses-approach might be best. In this approach, you’d have something like a "Crusader" gameplan for certain opponents (Ireland, England, Australia, Argentina) while taking on a Cotter/Schmidt/Blues-style for others like South Africa and France. The latter means more aggressive ruck defence, lots of blindside switches in attack, and picking players who excel in the pick and go and are able to dominate contact in close (Tu’ungafasi, Sotutu, Savea, Taukei’aho, Tuipulotu, etc.).
I don’t think it’s particularly likely that Robertson is going to go for something like this, but he can’t keep losing to teams with this playing style without coming onto serious pressure. I also don’t think this is unique to Robertson. Anyone who has been watching NZ U20s rugby for the past 12 years will probably have noticed how much these teams struggle with forward packs who stay tight together and flood the breakdown on attack and defence (some examples: SA 2012, ’14, ’19; FR 2018, ’23, ’24; WL 2012, ’19; IRL 2016; AU 2019, ’23). Those are a lot of coaches – Penney, Boyd, Robertson, Philpott, Laidlaw, Gibbes – who haven’t been able to successfully tackle this issue.
Robertson is a big believer in cohesion so that would go against this sort of mixed approach. I guess we’ll find out in the coming years whether cohesion is enough to overcome this close quarter forward-style.
It's totally philosophical.
If we wanted to play like France we totally could. But we are playing to outflank.
France play like an old school pack. Run hard as fuck, bash the ruck.
Neither is better than the other really. It comes down to if you do what you want AND stop the other team doing what they want.The ABs should watch Isaiah Yeo from Penrith. He's the master of the pass out the back, but if it's not on, he takes 12 metres.
If we can learn to make the pass while actually running we'll be unstoppable
If only we had some big munters who were athletic and had ball skills...
We do, or at least did. One is playing in Japan, and before too long I expect one will be playing in the UK
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks v France:
I'd like to see his assist stats compared to other players. He seems to be a good link player.
Keen as! I'm intrigued what you're watching to think he's a good link player.
@Bones said in All Blacks v France:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks v France:
I'd like to see his assist stats compared to other players. He seems to be a good link player.
Keen as! I'm intrigued what you're watching to think he's a good link player.
I am not as down on Jordan as you appear to be, but I admit to being disappointed in his development and agree with some of your, if not all (I feel dirty), criticisms of his play. I would add that I think we may have already seen the best of him unless he works out a way to become smarter in his decisions, develops a passing game and learns to work to put others in space. His speed is not always going to be a weapon (he doesn't seem as quick this year) and he doesn't have a step on him, so unless he can evolve his game he is going to end up another BB, possibly even a poor man's version.
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@Bones said in All Blacks v France:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks v France:
I'd like to see his assist stats compared to other players. He seems to be a good link player.
Keen as! I'm intrigued what you're watching to think he's a good link player.
I am not as down on Jordan as you appear to be, but I admit to being disappointed in his development and agree with some of your, if not all (I feel dirty), criticisms of his play. I would add that I think we may have already seen the best of him unless he works out a way to become smarter in his decisions, develops a passing game and learns to work to put others in space. His speed is not always going to be a weapon (he doesn't seem as quick this year) and he doesn't have a step on him, so unless he can evolve his game he is going to end up another BB, possibly even a poor man's version.
@Crazy-Horse he's already about to turn 27. it is far more likely that this is the finished product than he continues to develop.
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@Crazy-Horse he's already about to turn 27. it is far more likely that this is the finished product than he continues to develop.
Jesus, he is basically at the AB winger used by date.
I’m not sure whether it is Covid or what, but I undercount everyone’s age by two or three years.
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To me, his decision-making is suss in that playstation wants to score in the current movement every time way, and he totally has tunnel vision once he gets the ball - which is a shame because he makes breaks others wouldn't and if he could link we would undoubtedly score more tries.
He's still one of our best attacking weapons, and he gets the ball more at 15 than he does on the wing, and with more ability to insert himself.
If the alternative is BB or Perofeta, then I'm okay with WJ.
Stevenson and Love don't appear to be the full package either really, but wouldn't mind seeing them get some opportunity.
McKenzie would be better, but he's our best 10. -
@Crazy-Horse he's already about to turn 27. it is far more likely that this is the finished product than he continues to develop.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France:
@Crazy-Horse he's already about to turn 27. it is far more likely that this is the finished product than he continues to develop.
Yeah that's what I am worried about. I have my fingers crossed he may develop 'smarts' though, but for once in my life I may be being too optimistic
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To me, his decision-making is suss in that playstation wants to score in the current movement every time way, and he totally has tunnel vision once he gets the ball - which is a shame because he makes breaks others wouldn't and if he could link we would undoubtedly score more tries.
He's still one of our best attacking weapons, and he gets the ball more at 15 than he does on the wing, and with more ability to insert himself.
If the alternative is BB or Perofeta, then I'm okay with WJ.
Stevenson and Love don't appear to be the full package either really, but wouldn't mind seeing them get some opportunity.
McKenzie would be better, but he's our best 10.@reprobate said in All Blacks v France:
To me, his decision-making is suss in that playstation wants to score in the current movement every time way, and he totally has tunnel vision once he gets the ball - which is a shame because he makes breaks others wouldn't and if he could link we would undoubtedly score more tries.
He's still one of our best attacking weapons, and he gets the ball more at 15 than he does on the wing, and with more ability to insert himself.
If the alternative is BB or Perofeta, then I'm okay with WJ.
Stevenson and Love don't appear to be the full package either really, but wouldn't mind seeing them get some opportunity.
McKenzie would be better, but he's our best 10.Re Stevenson and Love I think the selectors are definitely thinking the same way about Stevenson, but I would be surprised if they have written Love off just yet. Next year will be a big year fir Love. His form fell away this year, but that coincided with an injury he tried to play through. In hindsight, that may have harmed his reputation a little.
I think the above is why they are sniffing around Fihaki. He brings some attributes that Stevenson brings, but without the lazy looking brain farts. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the idea of Fihaki in the ABs but I can see the attraction.
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I agree that WJ suits wing better. He is a weapon there. Opposite to the narrative on here, I think his distribution skills are good as he has consistently shown (try assist stats?) but the lack of a tactical kicking game and decision-making in a tight arm wrestle is a concern.
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@Old-Samurai-Jack yeah I agree, his strike rate for us on the wing is crazy, you can't discount that. The guy knows how to find the try line and that's a huge plus in a tight test.
At the end of the day some players are suited to the role of decision maker, others are better as finishers. Jordan is 100% the latter. In the modern game you need your 9, 10 and 15 to call the shots and make the decisions. Roigard is superb in this regard (despite his age), DMac has improved hugely (though he will always be a bit of a risk taker if a chance presents itself which is not necessarily a bad thing), and Jordan just isn't suited to the role at all. That's why I have preferred BB at the back, but I think his days in the starting 15 are behind him now. I'd like to see Love and Perofeta given a lot more game time as they are both 10/15s so have experience calling the shots. Perofeta was very good against England before injury and Love is a a real talent that should be developed as soon as possible.
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@Bones said in All Blacks v France:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks v France:
I'd like to see his assist stats compared to other players. He seems to be a good link player.
Keen as! I'm intrigued what you're watching to think he's a good link player.
I am not as down on Jordan as you appear to be, but I admit to being disappointed in his development and agree with some of your, if not all (I feel dirty), criticisms of his play. I would add that I think we may have already seen the best of him unless he works out a way to become smarter in his decisions, develops a passing game and learns to work to put others in space. His speed is not always going to be a weapon (he doesn't seem as quick this year) and he doesn't have a step on him, so unless he can evolve his game he is going to end up another BB, possibly even a poor man's version.
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks v France:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks v France:
I'd like to see his assist stats compared to other players. He seems to be a good link player.
Keen as! I'm intrigued what you're watching to think he's a good link player.
I am not as down on Jordan as you appear to be, but I admit to being disappointed in his development and agree with some of your, if not all (I feel dirty), criticisms of his play. I would add that I think we may have already seen the best of him unless he works out a way to become smarter in his decisions, develops a passing game and learns to work to put others in space. His speed is not always going to be a weapon (he doesn't seem as quick this year) and he doesn't have a step on him, so unless he can evolve his game he is going to end up another BB, possibly even a poor man's version.
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks v France:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks v France:
I'd like to see his assist stats compared to other players. He seems to be a good link player.
Keen as! I'm intrigued what you're watching to think he's a good link player.
I am not as down on Jordan as you appear to be, but I admit to being disappointed in his development and agree with some of your, if not all (I feel dirty), criticisms of his play. I would add that I think we may have already seen the best of him unless he works out a way to become smarter in his decisions, develops a passing game and learns to work to put others in space. His speed is not always going to be a weapon (he doesn't seem as quick this year) and he doesn't have a step on him, so unless he can evolve his game he is going to end up another BB, possibly even a poor man's version.
@Bones said in All Blacks v France:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks v France:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in All Blacks v France:
I'd like to see his assist stats compared to other players. He seems to be a good link player.
Keen as! I'm intrigued what you're watching to think he's a good link player.
I am not as down on Jordan as you appear to be, but I admit to being disappointed in his development and agree with some of your, if not all (I feel dirty), criticisms of his play. I would add that I think we may have already seen the best of him unless he works out a way to become smarter in his decisions, develops a passing game and learns to work to put others in space. His speed is not always going to be a weapon (he doesn't seem as quick this year) and he doesn't have a step on him, so unless he can evolve his game he is going to end up another BB, possibly even a poor man's version.
Upvoted for the use of "undercover of darkness" by the Strokes in the video.
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Being away all weekend I didn't get to see any of the tests live so didn't read this thread until now, after finally viewing the game.
On a couple of important decisions:
For the Ofa neck roll, Lakai cleaning from the side of that ruck made it look far worse than it was. If anyone should have been penalised it was him.
Sititi owes Ratima an apology (and beer). The knock-on at the lineout is on him. I doubt any halfback catches the ball when it lands at your toes. Secondly, why did Sititi join that ruck when the ball was already in front of Tuipulotu? Extending the caterpillar ruck even longer only made Ratima's job harder to get the ball back. Stand to the side of the ruck as a pillar. It was symptomatic of some of the poor ball presentation we've seen. I remember Roigard stuffing up a pass in the 1st half for the same reason.
As many have said, starting BB ahead of DMac was a mistake. We all knew that before the test. Still leaving BB as the main playmaker when both were on the field only compounded their poor decision.
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@stodders said in All Blacks v France:
@Billy-Tell or South African
resident Saffas exempted - but my God, some of your fellow countrymen and women have a pathological victim complex going on. Andrew Brace tried to rob the Boks on Saturday rather than the Boks being indisciplined and inviting pressure.Are you confusing me and @Billy-Tell ?
(For the record, I think the Boks went through a 20 minute patch of the worst ruck indiscipline I'd seen in quite some time. Rightfully penalized for it).
