All Blacks v Argentina I
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@kiwiinmelb Add in Sititi and Roigard and things are sweet.
Flyhalf is a major problem area though.@BerniesCorner it’s not really. We’ve got the greatest super rugby player of all time coming back next year
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I don't understand the desire of some to move Jordan to wing to accommodate love. Jordan is one of our few world class players and needs as many minutes at 15
Love on the right wing is definitely worth a try though
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@BerniesCorner it’s not really. We’ve got the greatest super rugby player of all time coming back next year
@chchfanatic said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@BerniesCorner it’s not really. We’ve got the greatest super rugby player of all time coming back next year
All Blacks are gonna be favourites to win Super Rugby that's for sure
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@Chuck72 Razors not shifting Will Jordan for anyone. Prime Christian Cullen maybe.
@chchfanatic said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Chuck72 Razors not shifting Will Jordan for anyone. Prime Christian Cullen maybe.
Cully can go to centre and fix the problem there....
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It takes some effort to play in four All Blacks Test wins and never impose yourself on a game.
The problem is Rieko and ALB aren't the answer at centre either.
@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
It takes some effort to play in four All Blacks Test wins and never impose yourself on a game.
Took Vaa'i more than that, to be fair.
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Random thoughts:
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Don't go for blaming just Christie for Argentina getting back into the game. Things went to poo collectively. And lets face it, he;s probably no. 5 in the pecking order
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Liked the way we battled back and scored two tries by doing the basics well. If that was an on-field leadership, kudos to Ardie as it wasn't coming from Scott Barrett.
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Agree with all the comments about the backs playing too fast/flashy. Who runs the backline? Is anyone running the backline? Can;t expect a rookie 13 to shine playing in that environment. Nor Roigard to manufacture a magically transformation. Serious work needed,
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ALB was awful. Admire his loyalty after being fucked around by coach after coach but he really should hang up his boots
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We really have some depth in the tight 5. Think we'll have a settled Vaa'i/RD/Wallace combination by the end of the RC. Can't wait.
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@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
It takes some effort to play in four All Blacks Test wins and never impose yourself on a game.
Took Vaa'i more than that, to be fair.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
It takes some effort to play in four All Blacks Test wins and never impose yourself on a game.
Took Vaa'i more than that, to be fair.
Due to injury Vaai had to start his 2nd test at lock in an Eden Park Bledisloe (after Wallabies drew test 1 the week before) as a 20 year old and he had a fine game - second test of the Foster era
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I don't understand the desire of some to move Jordan to wing to accommodate love. Jordan is one of our few world class players and needs as many minutes at 15
Love on the right wing is definitely worth a try though
@Chuck72 said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
I don't understand the desire of some to move Jordan to wing to accommodate love. Jordan is one of our few world class players and needs as many minutes at 15
Love on the right wing is definitely worth a try though
Keep Jordan at fullback and move Love to 10.
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@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
It takes some effort to play in four All Blacks Test wins and never impose yourself on a game.
Took Vaa'i more than that, to be fair.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
It takes some effort to play in four All Blacks Test wins and never impose yourself on a game.
Took Vaa'i more than that, to be fair.
Fuck me, there's some weird revisionism going on when it comes to Vai'i. He had a good first season in black. I think his anti-fluffer on here (can't remember who it was) did a good job convincing everyone he was always crap.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
It takes some effort to play in four All Blacks Test wins and never impose yourself on a game.
Took Vaa'i more than that, to be fair.
Fuck me, there's some weird revisionism going on when it comes to Vai'i. He had a good first season in black. I think his anti-fluffer on here (can't remember who it was) did a good job convincing everyone he was always crap.
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@His-Bobness said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Gregor Paul in the NZ Herald has astutely summed up the problem - which has been evident for a while now but which the coaches, with the ‘brand’ ambition to play thousand-mile-an-hour rugby, refuse to confront.
In other words, while they now have a forward platform and set-piece game as good as anyone, the coaches are undoing the good work with their pressure on a below average (by AB standards) backline to play at such a speed that it sacrifices precision, efficiency and cohesion.
“The obvious gulf between the coaching vision and the team’s ability to produce it leaves the All Blacks in a fascinating quandary about whether to pull back from this notion that they can run opponents off their feet and to lean more heavily into slowing things down and playing around their set-piece strength,” Paul writes.
“As unimaginable, or even unpalatable as it is, the All Blacks have to consider giving up on their goal of being the world’s great entertainers and accept that their pack has the core skills, size and technical proficiency to crush the life out of opponents.”
There can be a happy medium. We can still play expansive rugby, but we should pick and choose the right time
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@His-Bobness said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
Gregor Paul in the NZ Herald has astutely summed up the problem - which has been evident for a while now but which the coaches, with the ‘brand’ ambition to play thousand-mile-an-hour rugby, refuse to confront.
In other words, while they now have a forward platform and set-piece game as good as anyone, the coaches are undoing the good work with their pressure on a below average (by AB standards) backline to play at such a speed that it sacrifices precision, efficiency and cohesion.
“The obvious gulf between the coaching vision and the team’s ability to produce it leaves the All Blacks in a fascinating quandary about whether to pull back from this notion that they can run opponents off their feet and to lean more heavily into slowing things down and playing around their set-piece strength,” Paul writes.
“As unimaginable, or even unpalatable as it is, the All Blacks have to consider giving up on their goal of being the world’s great entertainers and accept that their pack has the core skills, size and technical proficiency to crush the life out of opponents.”
There can be a happy medium. We can still play expansive rugby, but we should pick and choose the right time
Yes, i have thought for some time - and we have talked about it here - that this hame st extreme pace is silly in todays game.
Accuracy is more important as is the ability to vary the game and not be predictable.
Look how well we went when we kept it in the forwards for ST’s tries. But we also did well in the first half with width.
Varied game plan executed well will have teams not knowing how we are going to attack them will be far more potent and succesful approach than trying to play helter skelter rugby that breaks down after a few phases
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
It takes some effort to play in four All Blacks Test wins and never impose yourself on a game.
Took Vaa'i more than that, to be fair.
Fuck me, there's some weird revisionism going on when it comes to Vai'i. He had a good first season in black. I think his anti-fluffer on here (can't remember who it was) did a good job convincing everyone he was always crap.
@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
It takes some effort to play in four All Blacks Test wins and never impose yourself on a game.
Took Vaa'i more than that, to be fair.
Fuck me, there's some weird revisionism going on when it comes to Vai'i. He had a good first season in black. I think his anti-fluffer on here (can't remember who it was) did a good job convincing everyone he was always crap.
Yeah, nah.
Personally think I was his his super fluffer, and thought he was just about done prior to his breakthrough last year.
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I tend to agree with Wilson and Mils on their comments on Proctor during the Breakdown tonight. Our game plan atm really doesn’t enable him to have much opportunity to create on attack like he’s done so consistently for the Canes. He probably got one chance to attack today and he made a tackle break that eventually ended up leading to the second Reece try. He’s spending most of his time cleaning rucks or chasing kicks right now because we aren't moving the ball away too far from the forwards. Wilson said it’s pretty bloody harsh to judge Proctor fully when you’re not giving him the ball to show what he can do. Marshall is talking about moving Ioane back to midfield but Mils quickly responded and argued the fact we need to stop chopping and changing in such a crucial position and actually give him some ball to play with.
Maybe get the ball through the backline more than a couple times a game and actually use the players that we have at our disposal. That’s where I’d prefer McKenzie over Barrett at 10 because he actually gets the ball out instead of aimlessly kicking the ball away for 90% of the game.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
It takes some effort to play in four All Blacks Test wins and never impose yourself on a game.
Took Vaa'i more than that, to be fair.
Fuck me, there's some weird revisionism going on when it comes to Vai'i. He had a good first season in black. I think his anti-fluffer on here (can't remember who it was) did a good job convincing everyone he was always crap.
Yeah, nah.
Personally think I was his his super fluffer, and thought he was just about done prior to his breakthrough last year.
@booboo said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
It takes some effort to play in four All Blacks Test wins and never impose yourself on a game.
Took Vaa'i more than that, to be fair.
Fuck me, there's some weird revisionism going on when it comes to Vai'i. He had a good first season in black. I think his anti-fluffer on here (can't remember who it was) did a good job convincing everyone he was always crap.
Yeah, nah.
Personally think I was his his super fluffer, and thought he was just about done prior to his breakthrough last year.
Both can be true. His debut year was 2020. His breakthrough year was 2024. The issue is the 3 years in between.
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I think we are being a bit too hard on the team.
Yes there is a lot of improvements we can make (which is exciting) but dont forget we are in Argentina, playing against a very good Pumas side that came out fighting in the 2nd half)
The pumas, who beat the Lions team that beat the wobs team that just smashed the boks.
We had a great 1st half, and then regained control after the pumas fought back. Thats fantastic, we struggled to do that last year. We did it against a good side, in an away test. We are sre not going to dominate teams for 80 min’s
We have had a very disjointed AB season so far due to injuries so we havent really managed to build any cohesion outside of the tight 5 (as i have been saying since ‘23 - this is the real strength of this Ab side and its only going to improve with so much quality depth now).
We still have 6 top line players unavailable.
Im pleased with BB’s goalkicking but i do think he is the reason ourbackline doesnt look so fluid.
The backline with DMac last year looked far better
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
It takes some effort to play in four All Blacks Test wins and never impose yourself on a game.
Took Vaa'i more than that, to be fair.
Fuck me, there's some weird revisionism going on when it comes to Vai'i. He had a good first season in black. I think his anti-fluffer on here (can't remember who it was) did a good job convincing everyone he was always crap.
@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
It takes some effort to play in four All Blacks Test wins and never impose yourself on a game.
Took Vaa'i more than that, to be fair.
Fuck me, there's some weird revisionism going on when it comes to Vai'i. He had a good first season in black. I think his anti-fluffer on here (can't remember who it was) did a good job convincing everyone he was always crap.
My point was it took more than 3.5 Tests for Vaa'i to come good/impose himself, not that Vaa'i was shit-house.
There were also many who wanted him dropped though but that was probably as he was a Chief....
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I tend to agree with Wilson and Mils on their comments on Proctor during the Breakdown tonight. Our game plan atm really doesn’t enable him to have much opportunity to create on attack like he’s done so consistently for the Canes. He probably got one chance to attack today and he made a tackle break that eventually ended up leading to the second Reece try. He’s spending most of his time cleaning rucks or chasing kicks right now because we aren't moving the ball away too far from the forwards. Wilson said it’s pretty bloody harsh to judge Proctor fully when you’re not giving him the ball to show what he can do. Marshall is talking about moving Ioane back to midfield but Mils quickly responded and argued the fact we need to stop chopping and changing in such a crucial position and actually give him some ball to play with.
Maybe get the ball through the backline more than a couple times a game and actually use the players that we have at our disposal. That’s where I’d prefer McKenzie over Barrett at 10 because he actually gets the ball out instead of aimlessly kicking the ball away for 90% of the game.
@Canes4life said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
I tend to agree with Wilson and Mils on their comments on Proctor during the Breakdown tonight. Our game plan atm really doesn’t enable him to have much opportunity to create on attack like he’s done so consistently for the Canes. He probably got one chance to attack today and he made a tackle break that eventually ended up leading to the second Reece try. He’s spending most of his time cleaning rucks or chasing kicks right now because we aren't moving the ball away too far from the forwards. Wilson said it’s pretty bloody harsh to judge Proctor fully when you’re not giving him the ball to show what he can do. Marshall is talking about moving Ioane back to midfield but Mils quickly responded and argued the fact we need to stop chopping and changing in such a crucial position and actually give him some ball to play with.
Maybe get the ball through the backline more than a couple times a game and actually use the players that we have at our disposal. That’s where I’d prefer McKenzie over Barrett at 10 because he actually gets the ball out instead of aimlessly kicking the ball away for 90% of the game.
I don't think the game plan / performance of others around him allows Proctor to flourish, but there's also plenty of garbage things he's doing that isn't really a product of slow ball, bad passes etc. His defence in particular has been very suspect.
I'm happy for the All Blacks to stick with him because he has shown great promise for the Canes but he's definitely not doing any better at 13 than Ioane was.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Argentina I:
It takes some effort to play in four All Blacks Test wins and never impose yourself on a game.
Took Vaa'i more than that, to be fair.
Fuck me, there's some weird revisionism going on when it comes to Vai'i. He had a good first season in black. I think his anti-fluffer on here (can't remember who it was) did a good job convincing everyone he was always crap.
My point was it took more than 3.5 Tests for Vaa'i to come good/impose himself, not that Vaa'i was shit-house.
There were also many who wanted him dropped though but that was probably as he was a Chief....
Vaai had always played to higher standard compared to Proctor so far. Plus Vaai debut3d when he was 20. Billy Proctor is 26. Older than Vaai is after 5 years experience at test level.
Players were never given a whole season starting to try and come right in the past.
I prefer Lam at centre to Rieko at the Blues however Rieko was far more reliable than what either Proctor or ALB have been showing. Riekos limited game is also better suited to our powerful tight five.
