The Silver Fern

I have been a member of this forum for more than two decades. It's been fun and a privilege and I have had the fortune to meet a couple of the Ferners in person over the years and have formed friendships with one or two that have transcended rugby.

So please indulge me when when I am say I am absolutely stoked with the Bok victory.
It's not crowing - it is relief, happiness, joy.
It's been a tough RWC for me personally to follow. 2019 was an unexpected joy - one that came from low expectations. 2023 had high expectations which I realized as a result made it so much tougher to follow.

A one point victory over an excellent French side in the QF set the tone.
Another 1 pointer against an inspired England who played way above anyone's expectations was just crazy.

Then the privilege of facing the "Old Foe" again in a final again for the first time since 1995 was the dream set up finale. I could have swallowed a result either way. Both teams had originally been drawn in so-called pools of death and their chances were rated below France and Ireland. Both had shown their mettle and made it to the end.

And on the day many factors, for and against both sides added to the drama of the encounter.
Mbonambi getting injured in the 2nd minute of the game severely undermined the Bok plan. Less power in the scrums, less accuracy at lineouts. A coaching gamble that almost backfired at the last minute.
A red card for Sam Cane reducing the AB's to a man down for 50+ minutes of the match.
(A separate thread is needed at some time - again - about red cards).
And I take my hat off to the AB's. That 2nd half you wouldn't think they had been playing with a man down all that time.
Tiny margins, marginal calls... it could all have been different on the day.

As I said up front, I am super happy as a Bok fan.
Equally, I salute the team that at least for me always, is the yardstick I measure the Bok performance by.

See you in the 2027 final again hopefully!

That was unexpected. I was at the AB v Boks game at Newlands last year and that was a thrilling match. One the Boks could've / should've won, except for the fact that the AB's just seem to have no clue how to lose, so when Francois Louw coughed up a simple ball with 2 minutes to play I fully expected this to be another close-but-no-cigar match. Fliiping delighted the defence held out though. A heroic loss is sometimes more gutting than getting smashed.

A couple of random thoughts from this Bok supporter.

On the plus side:
Good aggressive effort from especially the pack ensured that the AB's didn't always get the go-forward they have managed in the past.
Faf de Klerk is turning into a fabulous nuisance. He'd irritate the hell out of me if I he played against us.
Nice to see we can actually set up some running rugby tries.
Willie le Roux pitched up big time. Yellow card notwithstanding, one of his best games in the Bok jersey for quite some time.

On the minus side:
Boks leaked 6 tries. As impressive as the defence was, especially in the last 20 min, that's still a lot of tries. Had Barrett kicked a touch better, this would be yet another loss for us.
We still don't have a convincing midfield combination. They are ok, but nothing that really asks questions of the defence.
Jessie Kriel... I am not a fan.

On the realistic side:
The Boks had a good day and took pretty much every chance that came our way. The AB's made a few more mistakes than usual - whether caused by Bok pressure or simply being too used to having it all their own way I don't know - but the net result was a narrow win for the Boks. On current form , with current skill sets, the Boks remain a good few steps behind the AB's. While I am super chuffed with the result, this Bok team have a long way to go to consistently being a realistic challenger against the AB's. And I mean that in a really positive way. The team has made good strides under Rassie and there are some promising signs, but we are not close to being back towards the top of the rugby tree... yet.

Thoroughly looking forward to the return game in Pretoria in 3 weeks time. I expect a hugely motivated and ruthless AB challenge up at one of their favourite SA grounds. The Boks will need to be at their best.

This seems to be the most appropriate thread to post this is:

While I am elated about the Boks making it to the SF - as would be the AB fans and Argie and England fans - I truly commiserate with the losing quarter finalists and their fans.

Fiji were magnificent and punched way above their weight for a country with a TOTAL population barely 10% of the city of London.
Wales came from a dismal run of results to within a whisker of making consecutive RWC semi finals.

And then there is France and Ireland. Either team could have been deserving winners of the tournament - they were playing that well. That it took the 2 best quarter final games I can remember to destroy that dream will be scant consolation to the players and their fans. Knock-out rugby is cruel like that.

I genuinely feel for you.

Super chuffed.
About to be completely shitfaced.
Post more coherent thoughts when I sober up.

Bokke!

A couple of arbitrary observations from this Saffa:

A much better game to watch this week.
Obviously nice for me that the rugby gods chose to smile on the Boks this time around - but this game was ball-hair close again. 3 of them on this tour so it was about time we came out on the rights ide of things

Been reading some of the comments about the AB lineout... I don't think it struggled nearly as much as some of you seemed to think. I guess what hurt was losing one or two crucial ones, but don't forget the one you nicked off us for Webber's try.

Also saw some comments on Ardi Savea's captaincy. Can't say I was paying too much attention to it, so won't comment on that, but lordy he is playing some sublime rugby though!

And Jordy Barrett... never really rated him before, but I have to revise that view now. And he has some serious BMT when it comes to those clutch-moment penalties.

On the Bok side I thought Kwagga Smith played well, Duane Vermeulen is an absolute machine, and Lukhanyo Am is fast establishing himself as one of our best ever 13's to join the ranks of some illustrious predecessors like Danie Gerber and Jacques Fourie. His defence-organization is supreme, and he really is the creative force of our backline.

All-in-all a test match worthy of the proud rivalry between the AB's and Boks.

Nice to see that humour is still a go-to coping mecahnism:

Finally found a minute to comment on this game. And what i really want to say is:

Fuck you All Blacks.
Seriously, when are you guys going to learn to lose?!
You spoiled a good game of rugby because after 10 years, you still haven't properly leant the skill of losing a rugby game.

note: the smiley face is just insurance before one of you takes the above comments all wrong...

Bloody dramatic game. Gutted to be on the wrong side of the result. But probably balances the books a bit if one recalls Wellington. Still work to do for the Boks. But pleasingly they at least keep learning. And the big lesson of the day... you need a bench that delivers. BIG difference on the day.

@ Sam Kane: hope you make a swift and full recovery. You're a pain-in-the-ass to play against. Respect.

A good day out for the Boks, and a nice way to end the warm-ups before the big show starts.
I thought the pluses for the Boks were increased accuracy, and Canaan Moodie not looking too shabby at 13.

Beyond that, I'm not getting overexcited by the result. Yes, a win against the ABs is always good. But to read too much into the result for either team would be a mistake. It doesn't matter who you are, if you play the game with at least one man down for the majority of the match, you're always going to struggle. Well done to the Bokke for clinically capitalizing, but I wouldn't be all doom-and-gloom if I were an AB fan. It was simply a bad day at the office, compounded by cards. And every team has an off day somewhere along the lines. Maybe the ABs have gotten theirs out the way early? Better now than in the knock-out stages of the RWC.

Good questions all of those. Will give you my take on them one-by-one.
Other Bok fans here may have their own views.

@stodders said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@Billy-Webb tell me, what’s with the rabid pursuit of SA fans to nominate the current Bok team as the greatest ever and Kolisi as the greatest captain ever so soon after a World Cup win?

I am as bemused by this as you and many others.
My suspicion is that it is a group of somewhat over-excited fans who are pursuing the narrative on social media probably as backlash against the "ugly rugby", you were lucky, you borderline cheat narrative that is also present.
In fairness, no-one in my circle even mentions it - being the best ever. Maybe I just have a more balanced group.

Kolisi will be up there with the most revered SA captains, that's for sure. Greatest captain in rugby ever? I am not sure how one even starts to try and measure that.

Personally, they aren’t the best Bok team I’ve seen. That would be the 2007-2009 vintage. PSDT was awesome in the final, but even he’d struggle to dislodge Juan Smith from the 7 jersey.

Again - achieving the back-to-back success is driving this narrative.
For my money 2007-2009 and the 2019 vintage stack up well too.
For what it's worth, I would try and find a way to play both Juan Smith and PSDT if ever it were possible.

Back to back is an insane achievement, but the thirst for validation and acknowledgment from Bok fans feels like something else?

Did those years of underachievement leave Bok fans with thin skins? Is it a reaction to foreign media and team coaches who poured scorn on their playing style? Is the outpouring of emotion sheer relief at winning as it deflects away the issues going on in SA right now and shows SA are actually world leading in something?

Yes. To all of the above imo.
It is an overreaction to having something to be proud of, coached and led by people who do it not just for themselves.

The Bok team and coaches are unabashedly proud of how they play. So they should. They won 2 world cups. The quest to be seen as the best comes primarily from the SA media and fans.

Intrigued to get a SA perspective from you and any other Bok fans on here.

So broadly:
The fans are proud.
They have something to treasure in a country where bad news sometimes feels like the dominant theme.
It is nice to give the finger to what is perceived as constant negativity and carping from foreign rugby media.

Some are just a bit too overexcited to have perspective right now.
But bless them for their enthusiasm.

@booboo said in Rugby World Cup general discussion:

@frugby said in Rugby World Cup general discussion:

So which refs get the semis?

With Jaco down and Uncle Mat being rubbish, is it as simple as BOK does SA v ENG and Barnes does NZ v ARG, or will the Georgian boy/Dickson/Pearce/Gardner/Berry come into the reckoning?

In past tournaments, the QF refs have done the semis.

It was a "learning" from 2007, when they invested in development for a certain QF that didn't happen.

Best refs do the biggest matches.

Thought Raynal looked lost. Jack O'Piper is crocked. Leaves Barnesy and BOK.

Leaves the question what if it is NZ v England ...

Then you get Marius Jonker. Who refs the game from the TMO box.
Game ends up being abandoned after 6 hours 43 minutes with only 3 players left on the pitch.

@Billy-Tell said in Bledisloe #2:

@taniwharugby said in Bledisloe #2:

@Bovidae they should save Garces for French schoolboy rugby.

Whinging poms Kiwis

The guy is a decent ref, and the forum is pathetic the way people whine on all the time about him.

Let's not mention the NZ Herald with their "wasn't a red card" crusade this week, and you can see why Stephen Jones whips himself up into a state of frenzy.

I've been on this forum circa 15 years.
In that time there have been a fair few whinges about reffing calls - mostly from us Saffas and quite often against kiwi refs - yes Bryce Lawrence I do mean you.

But generally speaking - and I make the very large exception of a certain Wayne Barnes in a certain 2007 match - I don't think commentary on reffing has ever been at a "pathetic" level on this forum.

Refs are like players. Some have better natural talent than others. Sometimes they have good games and sometimes they have bad games. Sometimes they have a brainfart. What's the point of a rugby forum if we didn't express our opinions on that?

Read through the thread from the game comments onwards.
Had to chuckle at some of the comments about the ref - I was reminded of when the shoe was on the other foot a few years ago. Did Brace make some mistakes? Of course. No ref is ever perfect. Was it disproportionately against the AB's? No. Was Mbonambi's try incorrectly awarded - in my opinion, yes. Unlucky for the AB's. Maybe a game changer, maybe not. But such is sport. And before any AB fan starts posting about other calls they didn't like, rest assured there is a list of marginal calls against the Boks that can be trotted out too.

But I really wanted to comment about the game in the clear light of day.
A proper Boks v AB test in my view.
Yes, both teams made some errors - who wouldn't with the amount of pressure the other team puts on you.
But it was thoroughly absorbing. I thought the scrums and lineouts were incredibly even. The AB's perhaps shading the lineouts - the Boks had trouble securing their own throws which is not something we are used to.
I thought the AB's kicked more than I'm used to, a mixture of some very good options to unlock the rush D, mixed with the occasional average execution. It was even in the loose too, maybe with the Boks shading it late in the game.
I thought with less than 11 minutes to go, being 10 points down the game was gone for the Boks. Glad they found a way.
My take on it all is that the difference between the sides is virtually zero. I look forward to another nailbiter next Saturday.

@sparky said in Team of the tournament:

1 Moody (NZ)
2 Owens (Wales)
3 Sinkler (England)
4 Wyn Jones (Wales)
5 Itoje (England)
6 Savea (NZ)
7 Underhill (England)
8 Vermeulen (SA)
9 De Klerk (SA)
10 Pollard (SA)
11 Adams (Wales)
12 Leinert-Brown (NZ)
13 Tuilagi (England)
14 Kolbe (SA)
15 Beauden Barrett (NZ)
16 Marx (SA)
17 Mtawarira (SA)
18 Malherbe (SA)
19 Scott Barrett (NZ)
20 Curry (England)
21 Nagare (Japan)
22 N'Tarmack (France)
23 Matsushima (Japan)

Scott Barrett? I assume you have him in as a lock.
You'd pick him ahead of Lood de Jager? Ahead of Etzebeth, Mostert and RG Snyman?

Or if you have picked him as loosie... you'd pick him ahead of PSDT?

I am clearly biased, but based on this tournament alone, I'd say most of the Bok tight 5 (both of them ) would be pretty strong contenders to make a team of the tournament.

Game is at midday SA time on Friday.
I have arranged for a braai and beers for all my staff so they can watch the game in true Saffer style.
You'd better bloomin well be right. Otherwise I am pouring water on the braai and making them all work overtime on the weekend.

@Stargazer said in Brumbies v Highlanders (round 3):

@Machpants Luck had nothing to do with it. Mid-range entry point is 6 weeks. With the usual 50% deduction for clean judicial record, showing remorse etc, it was always going to be 3 weeks. His only luck was that he didn't get red-carded during the game.

I always ponder the justice in these instances.
Brumbies could have had a man advantage for an extra 25 minutes (35 minutes minus the 10 for the yellow).
In a close game like this, that could have changed the result.
Instead, Highlander opponents for the next 3 weeks get the advantage of them having to play a replacement winger.

Seems wrong but I'll be damned if I can give any suggestion on how it is fixed.

Well that sucked! At least for this Bok fan.
But congrats to the BILs.

Thought the Boks looked really good in the first half. Felt pretty confident when it was time for the oranges. But then the Boks just seemed to drop a gear. Less accurate and some pretty stupid penalties given away. I started wondering about fitness levels...
The Lions by contrast seemed to get better and started playing with more confidence and freedom. Good win for them.

I thought the match officials were fine. Some calls I didn't love, but that would apply both ways and happens in every rugby game. The only one I feel a bit aggrieved by would be when Itoje (who I thought had a great game) won a penalty 5m from the BIL tryline poaching the ball. To my mind, he was on his knees and the penalty should have been the other way. But cest la vie. Pretty sure a BILs fan could equally point to a call favouring the Boks that was incorrect, so one can't have a whinge about one incident.

The Boks will have a bit of work to do for the 2nd test. More discipline, clearer heads required for the full 80. And the much vaunted replacement frontrow needs to hit the scrumming machine. They looked poor and got monstered a few times. Pretty surprising.

Looking forward to the next one.

@nzzp said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@antipodean said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@nostrildamus said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@antipodean said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

@nostrildamus said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:

There has been a discipline and or cards issue for some time.

I'd say there's a clear subconscious bias. IMO a capable TMO wouldn't have said the threshold was made for a bloke that has someone turn into him, and not for someone that runs 10 metres into the face of someone else.

I also take umbrage at the discretionary use of "absorbing".

you meant to answer my post?
A I think there is a discipline/card or at least playing to the ref problem with this side for awhile but on the other hand
B I'm not very happy with the TMO or the amount of consistency in the cards/penalties of the RWC final (i.e. I think I agree with you)

Yeah, although I agree we've not been squeaky clean and hence gambling with the vagaries of the adjudicators, but I seriously feel we've not been getting the rub of the green since the Lions Test.

I feel the same way.

This is my reality. My lived experience. Who is anyone to tell me I am wrong?

Welcome to the feeling Bok supporters have had for many years

I think that in the past, the AB's have tended to be able to take the ref decisions out of the game because they were just a notch or two so much better and a call against the AB's here or there didn't really matter.
For their opposition, a few 50:50 calls against them seemed like the kiss of death.

Now that there is, at least for now, less of a gap, the AB fans are feeling those 50:50 calls much more acutely. They do feel like they make the difference on the day.

That is my theory anyway....

Some late night thoughts:

Another tense, epic test match.
Small margins, grateful it went the Boks way.

Worrying:
Bok set pieces were not an asset like they have been recently.
Easy to to point at the Boks, but actually huge respect for the opposition who nullified / beat us here.
Lineouts: my verdict is the AB's were dominant.
Scrums: Boks marginally ahead, but not enough to make a game impact.
Mauls: No advantage either way, but importantly, this Bok weapon of the past was fully neutralized.
Rush defence: unlocked (easily) a good few times. Great scramble D saved a lot of blushes.

Obviously delighted the Boks won.
But equally realistic to know that this could have been 1-1 or even 0-2.
Long live the rivalry.

Well done Wallabies. A thoroughly deserved and convincing victory.
You held your own in the scrums, dominated the Boks in the lineouts and never allowed the Bok maul to get going. Great work at the breakdown and then really good work to open up the Bok defence for some great tries.

The Boks managed to look good for 20 minutes and then seemed to completely lose all rugby IQ.
Hugely frustrating as a Bok fan but there are always 2 teams on the park, and this time the guys in gold were simply better - by a lot.
There will be some hard introspection in that Bok camp, that's for sure.

@Machpants

That one try against England (bulldozing over Mike Catt) still blows my mind.
I can't off-hand think of anyone in world rugby, past or present who could've scored there.

The pass goes behind him. He has to stop, turn and go back for it.
He has a defender right there as he gathers the ball. Swats him down.
Get's ankle-tapped by the next defender and barely stays upright as he is confronted by the fullback. Barrels over him like a truck over a pebble.

No right to score that try, and yet he did. Legend.