The Silver Fern

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:

@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:

And Fosters environment seemed no less toxic.

Sorry, that's nonsense. Whatever is said about Foster's coaching, his squad was clearly very tight, loyal and hugely respected him - he had players publicly queuing up to support him when the pressure was on.

Read what his players said about him in his book

Foster had a select group of players who did that. A few players in the leadership group, like Whitelock, didn’t even know the meeting was planned until he was asked to turn up. A lot of other players had no idea. So it’s not players queuing around the corner. He obviously had a very loyal group of players in the team. What coach wouldn’t?

@gt12 said in All Blacks 2025:

@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:

@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:

@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:

@gt12 said in All Blacks 2025:

@jimmyb

I agree in principle with this. But, the only thing keeping people here is the chance to be an AB.

You can make far more money overseas, with far less pressure, and be treated very very well.

So, if you deem the environment to be toxic, and believe that the road back is blocked, and have a young family... I can easily see why someone would choose to stay out of the environment.

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating; Paps is likely on a pretty good contract now, but that won't last without further selection. So if he buggers off overseas - and he would command a very good contract halfway between a WC - we may look back at this differently.

I agree. If your priority is money and family, go overseas. But you do that like an adult. You say, Listen, thanks but I’m priorities long term financial success for my family and I think that’s best done elsewhere. Not throwing your toys because you and your mates (who really aren’t flash enough to behaving like this) dont get picked.

You speak like you know something. If not you can only presume like the rest of us. But there seems to be a lot of smoke emanating from numerous sources all of a sudden. And where there's smoke there's often fire. Trust is a two way street, and if these players feel trust is lacking it isn't unreasonable for them to want no part of a toxic situation

I’m not remotely implying I know anything. I’m just reading what’s been said here and the odd consensus that this is appropriate behaviour from a professional. That’s all I’m commenting on. The behaviour from a few blues players for their justifiable or unjustifiable lack of selection has been particularly childish. And if you behave like that when things don’t go your way, I’m not entirely sure why anyone is giving them any sympathy

It's not clear to me how he has behaved badly or even in a childish manner - he's not on Tiktok moaning about it.

We have heard a rumor that he refused promotion to the AB team.

He may have done that with the greatest of respect. For example, he may have said that he would prefer to stay with the ABXV team as the captain.

I’m literally responding to what people are saying. If he did do that, then yes absolutely

@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:

@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:

@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:

@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:

@gt12 said in All Blacks 2025:

@jimmyb

I agree in principle with this. But, the only thing keeping people here is the chance to be an AB.

You can make far more money overseas, with far less pressure, and be treated very very well.

So, if you deem the environment to be toxic, and believe that the road back is blocked, and have a young family... I can easily see why someone would choose to stay out of the environment.

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating; Paps is likely on a pretty good contract now, but that won't last without further selection. So if he buggers off overseas - and he would command a very good contract halfway between a WC - we may look back at this differently.

I agree. If your priority is money and family, go overseas. But you do that like an adult. You say, Listen, thanks but I’m priorities long term financial success for my family and I think that’s best done elsewhere. Not throwing your toys because you and your mates (who really aren’t flash enough to behaving like this) dont get picked.

You speak like you know something. If not you can only presume like the rest of us. But there seems to be a lot of smoke emanating from numerous sources all of a sudden. And where there's smoke there's often fire. Trust is a two way street, and if these players feel trust is lacking it isn't unreasonable for them to want no part of a toxic situation

I’m not remotely implying I know anything. I’m just reading what’s been said here and the odd consensus that this is appropriate behaviour from a professional. That’s all I’m commenting on. The behaviour from a few blues players for their justifiable or unjustifiable lack of selection has been particularly childish. And if you behave like that when things don’t go your way, I’m not entirely sure why anyone is giving them any sympathy

Clearly you believe Razor and his team have acted honorably. I'm not so sure

Honourably? Really….

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:

@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:

Dalton is a good player but he doesn’t have the personal accolades to be demanding anything from anyone

What is he demanding? Being treated with respect?

How is I’m not selecting you because I don’t think you’re good enough not being treated with respect? Even if you disagree with the opinion, how is it disrespectful)?

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:

@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:

@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:

@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:

@Nogusta said in All Blacks 2025:

@brodean

You can't say its "DP's decision" unless you have some evidence that Razor actually picked him and DP said no.

Razor: "Dalton I've picked you for the All Blacks"

DP: "No thanks.

Nailed it bruv

Got the 'call up' whilst with the ABXVs
Said thanks but no thanks.
Won't play for a coach he has lost respect for
NZRU considering sanction/fine of some
kind.
He got shafted last year around the time of the Northern tour and again this year.
Was it (this years shafting) to do with his non selection? Yes and no.

Interesting. So I assume that's another Blues player off overseas then? I remember you saying last year that Razor had ghosted him.

Things really do sound like they're getting ugly behind the scenes and just in time for a tour of SA as well.

I get you might be pissed off but the sense of entitlement for a fringe All Black player to do that is a tad pathetic. Can you imagine anyone in any other serious job behaving like that?

Well, I've walked away from business clients as being associated with them would be bad for my business/career prospects.

Yes but I’m not sure the two are comparable. One is a smart business decision, the other is behaving like a brat. Dalton is a good player but he doesn’t have the personal accolades to be demanding anything from anyone

Here's another way of looking at it. How has the AB coach managed to piss off a fringe AB off to the point he turns down selection

Reeks of Mitchell/Deans man management issues

He was happy to cash his when Foster had him in and out of the squad? And Fosters environment seemed no less toxic.

He was behind the AB captain under Foz.

Now guys who don't play a single test all season get picked in every squad ahead of him (Jacobson).

The players stood up for Foster and demanded that Robinson not sack him.

So they should. Anyone with any ounce of self respect would back their coach when their backs are against the wall

@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:

@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:

@gt12 said in All Blacks 2025:

@jimmyb

I agree in principle with this. But, the only thing keeping people here is the chance to be an AB.

You can make far more money overseas, with far less pressure, and be treated very very well.

So, if you deem the environment to be toxic, and believe that the road back is blocked, and have a young family... I can easily see why someone would choose to stay out of the environment.

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating; Paps is likely on a pretty good contract now, but that won't last without further selection. So if he buggers off overseas - and he would command a very good contract halfway between a WC - we may look back at this differently.

I agree. If your priority is money and family, go overseas. But you do that like an adult. You say, Listen, thanks but I’m priorities long term financial success for my family and I think that’s best done elsewhere. Not throwing your toys because you and your mates (who really aren’t flash enough to behaving like this) dont get picked.

You speak like you know something. If not you can only presume like the rest of us. But there seems to be a lot of smoke emanating from numerous sources all of a sudden. And where there's smoke there's often fire. Trust is a two way street, and if these players feel trust is lacking it isn't unreasonable for them to want no part of a toxic situation

I’m not remotely implying I know anything. I’m just reading what’s been said here and the odd consensus that this is appropriate behaviour from a professional. That’s all I’m commenting on. The behaviour from a few blues players for their justifiable or unjustifiable lack of selection has been particularly childish. And if you behave like that when things don’t go your way, I’m not entirely sure why anyone is giving them any sympathy

@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2025:

@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:

@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:

@Nogusta said in All Blacks 2025:

@brodean

You can't say its "DP's decision" unless you have some evidence that Razor actually picked him and DP said no.

Razor: "Dalton I've picked you for the All Blacks"

DP: "No thanks.

Nailed it bruv

Got the 'call up' whilst with the ABXVs
Said thanks but no thanks.
Won't play for a coach he has lost respect for
NZRU considering sanction/fine of some
kind.
He got shafted last year around the time of the Northern tour and again this year.
Was it (this years shafting) to do with his non selection? Yes and no.

Interesting. So I assume that's another Blues player off overseas then? I remember you saying last year that Razor had ghosted him.

Things really do sound like they're getting ugly behind the scenes and just in time for a tour of SA as well.

I get you might be pissed off but the sense of entitlement for a fringe All Black player to do that is a tad pathetic. Can you imagine anyone in any other serious job behaving like that?

Well, I've walked away from business clients as being associated with them would be bad for my business/career prospects.

Yes but I’m not sure the two are comparable. One is a smart business decision, the other is behaving like a brat. Dalton is a good player but he doesn’t have the personal accolades to be demanding anything from anyone

Here's another way of looking at it. How has the AB coach managed to piss off a fringe AB off to the point he turns down selection

Reeks of Mitchell/Deans man management issues

He was happy to cash his when Foster had him in and out of the squad? And Fosters environment seemed no less toxic.

@gt12 said in All Blacks 2025:

@jimmyb

I agree in principle with this. But, the only thing keeping people here is the chance to be an AB.

You can make far more money overseas, with far less pressure, and be treated very very well.

So, if you deem the environment to be toxic, and believe that the road back is blocked, and have a young family... I can easily see why someone would choose to stay out of the environment.

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating; Paps is likely on a pretty good contract now, but that won't last without further selection. So if he buggers off overseas - and he would command a very good contract halfway between a WC - we may look back at this differently.

I agree. If your priority is money and family, go overseas. But you do that like an adult. You say, Listen, thanks but I’m priorities long term financial success for my family and I think that’s best done elsewhere. Not throwing your toys because you and your mates (who really aren’t flash enough to behaving like this) dont get picked.

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:

@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:

@Nogusta said in All Blacks 2025:

@brodean

You can't say its "DP's decision" unless you have some evidence that Razor actually picked him and DP said no.

Razor: "Dalton I've picked you for the All Blacks"

DP: "No thanks.

Nailed it bruv

Got the 'call up' whilst with the ABXVs
Said thanks but no thanks.
Won't play for a coach he has lost respect for
NZRU considering sanction/fine of some
kind.
He got shafted last year around the time of the Northern tour and again this year.
Was it (this years shafting) to do with his non selection? Yes and no.

Interesting. So I assume that's another Blues player off overseas then? I remember you saying last year that Razor had ghosted him.

Things really do sound like they're getting ugly behind the scenes and just in time for a tour of SA as well.

I get you might be pissed off but the sense of entitlement for a fringe All Black player to do that is a tad pathetic. Can you imagine anyone in any other serious job behaving like that?

Well, I've walked away from business clients as being associated with them would be bad for my business/career prospects.

Yes but I’m not sure the two are comparable. One is a smart business decision, the other is behaving like a brat. Dalton is a good player but he doesn’t have the personal accolades to be demanding anything from anyone

@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:

@Nogusta said in All Blacks 2025:

@brodean

You can't say its "DP's decision" unless you have some evidence that Razor actually picked him and DP said no.

Razor: "Dalton I've picked you for the All Blacks"

DP: "No thanks.

Nailed it bruv

Got the 'call up' whilst with the ABXVs
Said thanks but no thanks.
Won't play for a coach he has lost respect for
NZRU considering sanction/fine of some
kind.
He got shafted last year around the time of the Northern tour and again this year.
Was it (this years shafting) to do with his non selection? Yes and no.

Interesting. So I assume that's another Blues player off overseas then? I remember you saying last year that Razor had ghosted him.

Things really do sound like they're getting ugly behind the scenes and just in time for a tour of SA as well.

I get you might be pissed off but the sense of entitlement for a fringe All Black player to do that is a tad pathetic. Can you imagine anyone in any other serious job behaving like that?

@Grooter said in Highlanders 2026:

The Legend of Marty Banks

Sheesh. This will be close - Georgia

thought I would share this here, good on Fabian it's a deserved nomination, when he's not starting his presence is missed big time as seen in Wellington and England. As for us I do wonder if he'll Join Jim & Sean in our leadership group

Surely it’s a shoot out between Holland and Hooker

@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:

@jimmyb said in England v All Blacks:

Backrow: Akira Ioane was never the answer.

He was against Australia, Man of the Match. Perth, September 2021.
And he was for the Blues.

Oh please that match was a walk over for the ABs. Playing against the wallabies then was like shooting fish in a barrel. Against a decent team you’d have a point. Akira is just a fatter version of savea. We don’t need another back rower that can’t clean rucks

@nostrildamus said in England Vs All Blacks:

@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:

I’m just not sure how Foster can inherit a team he’d already been coaching for 7 years.

Fair enough but

Razor on the other hand has to develop a 2nd row

He had Scott (2016!) and Vaa'i (2020) and Pat (2014!!)

entire backrow

more like get rid of the entire Blues backrow

two halfbacks

He inherited Cam and Christie (the latter Foster preferred at the 2023 RWC Final but am I still bitter, me?)

a 10

inherited BB (2012) and DMac (2016)? And resurrected with a passport, Richie M (2017)?

a centre pairing

recycled QT (2021) and LF (2022) oh and get rid of any Blues players

and a back three.

Reece (2019) and Clarke (2020) and Jordan (2020) were new, really?

Foster had his squad handed to him on a platter and only needed to tweak a few small elements

There I agree, but Foster did have a hand in composing the original platter.
Thanks for the above, I hadn't realized many of the above have been ABs for so long.
Maybe that is also part of the problem!

It’s definitely part of the problem.
I’m not sure how to format the responses to specific parts of the post but, and without wanting to be too argumentative:

Second row: Va’ai can hardly be called a Foster project. I think he had less than 10 caps by end of 23. An aging PT is nothing but a bench option

Backrow: Akira Ioane was never the answer. Sotutu was also binned by Foster and co. Dalton yes I’ll give you that.

Halfback: Cam had what, 2 caps by the end of RWC? Shoehorning Roigard into the 23 RWC squad then not using him is hardly inheriting a player. Inheriting Christie is not a positive

10: yes two tens that can’t play 10. I’d take the argument if one of them was an international quality 10.

Back three: A past it winger in Reece, Clarke who was so out of form he wasn’t in the RWC team, and a 15 that can’t play 15?

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face

I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.

I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face

I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.

I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig

That is disgusting revisionism

Care to elaborate? I was as critical of Fozzie as anyone. And he made lots of mistakes in selection and in gameplan. Things didn't seem to improve until Ryan and Schmidt joined him. But Razor's record probably isn't much better, and some of our play has been as bad. So I'm curious to hear your argument

I’m just not sure how Foster can inherit a team he’d already been coaching for 7 years. The RWC final team only had 4 (I think) players that had debuted post 2019 RWC. He didn’t have to do any work to develop players and he was still shit. Razor on the other hand has to develop a 2nd row, entire backrow, two halfbacks, a 10, a centre pairing, and a back three. Foster had his squad handed to him on a platter and only needed to tweak a few small elements

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face

I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.

I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:

@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:

Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face

I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.

I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig

That is disgusting revisionism

The only practical way forward would be to:
Get rid of B Barrett, Savea, ALB, Reece
Fire Holland
New attack coach
New captain, S Barrett has earn his spot back

Super rugby teams are strong armed into developing a 6,10, and 15 for the all blacks. Meaning Love starts all games at 10 or 15.. Josh Jacomb is forced into the Highlander’s squad to start every match.

@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:

@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:

@SouthernMann said in All Blacks 2025:

Hypothetically. I just doubt Vernabll would be accepted by NZ Rugby fans. Even if it won games regularly.

Yeah nah. Blues fans are also NZ Rugby fans too and winning with power will be taken over losing with confusion and malaise.

The Blues didn't exactly play 10 man rugby. They scored some great tries in their championship season. But their play was founded in strong fundamental forward play and solid game management from 10. If anyone doesn't want that right now I don't know what to say to you

Solid game management from a 10 is the key point.

@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2025:

Well, who is the best performing Kiwi coach out there at the moment?

Tony Brown

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:

@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:

I completely agree. International domestic and club experience with multiple titles is what is needed.

Who do you have in mind?

I honestly don’t know. The main point of my argument is we can’t replace shit with shit.

Old heads like Deans, Mitchell are the only names that spring to mind and I’m not sure either would want or have the mentality right now to coach the all blacks

@hikastags said in All Blacks 2025:

I’m really not sure why people think Jamie Joseph and Vern Crotter are viable alternatives. Between them they have one domestic title and tier 2 international experience (yes Scotland when vern crotter was coaching them may have well be tier 2).

If you think Robertson wasn’t ready for international coaching, not sure how those two qualify

Crotter had a great squad in Scotland and turned it into a muddling mess and wasted a great generation of players. One super rugby season doesn’t mean a lot I’m afraid

It's the experience more than anything. Coached in the UK, France, Fiji, NZ, and I think that's valuable. Our best coach ever Steve Hansen went 10 Wins and 20 Losses coaching Wales.

Vern took over Leon who couldn't win with the Blues so clearly an improvement. And got far more out of his players at the Blues than anyone else has managed to in a long, long time.

What’s the difference between that argument for the Blues players and what Robertson did at the crusaders? Which is not particularly arguably, a far greater achievement in terms of turning a squad around and developing players.

Hansen also landed into a role surrounded by the greatest coaching set up of all time. I think a lot of quality coaches could have somewhat Hansen did