B&I Lions 2017
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It appears that the discussion on the new "global season" has reached a compromised solution.
SANZAAR gets the mid-year tests shifted to July, and the NH seasons will now start later and finish in June.
Agreement that no mid-year tests to be held in the year following a RWC, which, if memory serves, tends to be the best time for NH to get wins down south.
Super Rugby comp will now be able to run uninterrupted.
Six Nations won't move due to England and France holding sway so PRO12 plans to have a shorter league season that finishes in March are now buggered.
Lions tour in 2021 will now be held in July and August apparently.
This is the heads of a draft agreement to be signed off at next pow-wow in November.
Nothing reported on revenue-sharing issue. Japan and US/Canada will get more Tier 1 opposition in the new WR Test Schedule for 2020 onwards.
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It's a pity the 6N wouldn't move. But to be expected. I don't think the Pro 12 countries realise that strong international football is the best chance of keeping their players out of England and French club rugby.
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It's a pity the 6N wouldn't move. But to be expected. I don't think the Pro 12 countries realise that strong international football is the best chance of keeping their players out of England and French club rugby.
@Billy-Tell said in B&I Lions 2017:
It's a pity the 6N wouldn't move. But to be expected. I don't think the Pro 12 countries realise that strong international football is the best chance of keeping their players out of England and French club rugby.
Football?
Do you mean soccer or rugby? -
From a SANZAAR perspective that is a pretty good result, no? I imagine the no tests post-RWC was a compromise from no tests in a RWC year? Fair's fair the NH lose their EOYT during a RWC season.
Is there anything to stop us inviting teams like USA, Canada, Japan, Samoa, Fiji or Tonga? We shoehorned Canada in during 2007, we added a Samoa fixture very late in 2008 and Fiji in 2011 and 2015. They could also play a standard TRC to fill the gap if SANZAAR is agreeable (or at least a third Bledisloe). If all else fails they could play a probables vs possibles game and get a gate out of that.
I seriously doubt Tew is going to light 3 tests worth of revenue on fire and have a three week hole in July without a back up plan.
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Glad they didn't move the 6N. Pretty iconic tournament and should hold sway over almost everything else except the RWC.
@MajorRage I'm disappointed they didn't move it. Weather is an enormous contributor to the dire, sh1t rugby often served up. You can see this by how much better the games often are in the final weekend vs the openers (to be fair this is augmented by the fact often teams need to score a certain no. points to break a deadlock on the table, so chuck it round more - which is why the 6N should have bonus point, but that's for another thread ...)
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From a SANZAAR perspective that is a pretty good result, no? I imagine the no tests post-RWC was a compromise from no tests in a RWC year? Fair's fair the NH lose their EOYT during a RWC season.
Is there anything to stop us inviting teams like USA, Canada, Japan, Samoa, Fiji or Tonga? We shoehorned Canada in during 2007, we added a Samoa fixture very late in 2008 and Fiji in 2011 and 2015. They could also play a standard TRC to fill the gap if SANZAAR is agreeable (or at least a third Bledisloe). If all else fails they could play a probables vs possibles game and get a gate out of that.
I seriously doubt Tew is going to light 3 tests worth of revenue on fire and have a three week hole in July without a back up plan.
@rotated said in B&I Lions 2017:
From a SANZAAR perspective that is a pretty good result, no? I imagine the no tests post-RWC was a compromise from no tests in a RWC year? Fair's fair the NH lose their EOYT during a RWC season.
Is there anything to stop us inviting teams like USA, Canada, Japan, Samoa, Fiji or Tonga? We shoehorned Canada in during 2007, we added a Samoa fixture very late in 2008 and Fiji in 2011 and 2015. They could also play a standard TRC to fill the gap if SANZAAR is agreeable (or at least a third Bledisloe). If all else fails they could play a probables vs possibles game and get a gate out of that.
I seriously doubt Tew is going to light 3 tests worth of revenue on fire and have a three week hole in July without a back up plan.
Isn't there always a standard TRC and 3rd Bledisloe in the year following the RWC? The shortened TRC (with 2 Bledisloe games) isn't that usually before the RWC?
As to inviting the countries you mention, don't these countries have a Pacific Nations Cup to play? Not sure when in the rugby season ...
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@rotated said in B&I Lions 2017:
From a SANZAAR perspective that is a pretty good result, no? I imagine the no tests post-RWC was a compromise from no tests in a RWC year? Fair's fair the NH lose their EOYT during a RWC season.
Is there anything to stop us inviting teams like USA, Canada, Japan, Samoa, Fiji or Tonga? We shoehorned Canada in during 2007, we added a Samoa fixture very late in 2008 and Fiji in 2011 and 2015. They could also play a standard TRC to fill the gap if SANZAAR is agreeable (or at least a third Bledisloe). If all else fails they could play a probables vs possibles game and get a gate out of that.
I seriously doubt Tew is going to light 3 tests worth of revenue on fire and have a three week hole in July without a back up plan.
Isn't there always a standard TRC and 3rd Bledisloe in the year following the RWC? The shortened TRC (with 2 Bledisloe games) isn't that usually before the RWC?
As to inviting the countries you mention, don't these countries have a Pacific Nations Cup to play? Not sure when in the rugby season ...
@Stargazer said in B&I Lions 2017:
@rotated said in B&I Lions 2017:
From a SANZAAR perspective that is a pretty good result, no? I imagine the no tests post-RWC was a compromise from no tests in a RWC year? Fair's fair the NH lose their EOYT during a RWC season.
Is there anything to stop us inviting teams like USA, Canada, Japan, Samoa, Fiji or Tonga? We shoehorned Canada in during 2007, we added a Samoa fixture very late in 2008 and Fiji in 2011 and 2015. They could also play a standard TRC to fill the gap if SANZAAR is agreeable (or at least a third Bledisloe). If all else fails they could play a probables vs possibles game and get a gate out of that.
I seriously doubt Tew is going to light 3 tests worth of revenue on fire and have a three week hole in July without a back up plan.
Isn't there always a standard TRC and 3rd Bledisloe in the year following the RWC? The shortened TRC (with 2 Bledisloe games) isn't that usually before the RWC?
As to inviting the countries you mention, don't these countries have a Pacific Nations Cup to play? Not sure when in the rugby season ...
The Pacific Nations Cup usually takes place in the June test period in a non-RWC year but I think they'd be able to push it back a bit if it got them some games against the big guns. I like the idea, though I'd rather see Georgia tour here than USA or Canada...
Very happy they're going to push the June tests back to July and give us an uninterrupted Super season.
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So revised schedule will look something like this:
2019
Aug - RC and 6N warm up matches
Sep/Oct RWC Japan
Nov -SANZAAR finishes season
NH clubs continue season2020
Feb - Super Rugby starts
Six Nations starts
Mar - Six Nations ends
June - Super Rugby/PRO12/Top14/Prem finish
NH season ends
July - SANZAAR play tier 2 nations?? Or start RC earlier?Sept - Top14 starts
Oct - Prem/PRO 12 starts
Nov - test matches
Dec - SH season ends, NH continues2021
June - SR and NH clubs finish.
July - Lions tour to Argentina/Japan maybe??2022
June - finish
July - NH teams tour SANZAAR unions2023
June - finish
July - no tour - start RC
Aug warm up matches for NH/complete RC
Sept - start RWC -
No money in touring Argentina for the Lions. There are no good teams to play over there and besides Argentina would probably just move a test to Twickenham.
@hydro11 said in B&I Lions 2017:
No money in touring Argentina for the Lions. There are no good teams to play over there and besides Argentina would probably just move a test to Twickenham.
The financial benefit of a Lions tour is mainly for the host nation(s), not the Lions.
A bit churlish, perhaps?
A combined tour over two nations (as used to sometimes happen) would spread the load somewhat. It might prove to be a very popular boost for rugby in South America and Japan. And clearly they couldn't move a test to Twickenham since it's an outbound tour.
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A Lions tour to Argentina would be a clever decision.
Especially after they get reamed in NZ losing more than half of their games.
@Frye said in B&I Lions 2017:
A Lions tour to Argentina would be a clever decision.
Especially after they get reamed in NZ losing more than half of their games.
That sounds more like a spit on the ground rather than encouragement for the idea.
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From a SANZAAR perspective that is a pretty good result, no? I imagine the no tests post-RWC was a compromise from no tests in a RWC year? Fair's fair the NH lose their EOYT during a RWC season.
Is there anything to stop us inviting teams like USA, Canada, Japan, Samoa, Fiji or Tonga? We shoehorned Canada in during 2007, we added a Samoa fixture very late in 2008 and Fiji in 2011 and 2015. They could also play a standard TRC to fill the gap if SANZAAR is agreeable (or at least a third Bledisloe). If all else fails they could play a probables vs possibles game and get a gate out of that.
I seriously doubt Tew is going to light 3 tests worth of revenue on fire and have a three week hole in July without a back up plan.
@rotated said in B&I Lions 2017:
From a SANZAAR perspective that is a pretty good result, no? I imagine the no tests post-RWC was a compromise from no tests in a RWC year? Fair's fair the NH lose their EOYT during a RWC season.
Is there anything to stop us inviting teams like USA, Canada, Japan, Samoa, Fiji or Tonga? We shoehorned Canada in during 2007, we added a Samoa fixture very late in 2008 and Fiji in 2011 and 2015. They could also play a standard TRC to fill the gap if SANZAAR is agreeable (or at least a third Bledisloe). If all else fails they could play a probables vs possibles game and get a gate out of that.
I seriously doubt Tew is going to light 3 tests worth of revenue on fire and have a three week hole in July without a back up plan.
I suspect that any gap in the new schedule will be seized on by the English and French clubs to drive a world club competition of some sort to realise the NH v SH club argument. One with enough money at stake to silence the need for more tests. One in which winning will matter less than simply being part of.
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@hydro11 said in B&I Lions 2017:
No money in touring Argentina for the Lions. There are no good teams to play over there and besides Argentina would probably just move a test to Twickenham.
The financial benefit of a Lions tour is mainly for the host nation(s), not the Lions.
A bit churlish, perhaps?
A combined tour over two nations (as used to sometimes happen) would spread the load somewhat. It might prove to be a very popular boost for rugby in South America and Japan. And clearly they couldn't move a test to Twickenham since it's an outbound tour.
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@hydro11 said in B&I Lions 2017:
No money in touring Argentina for the Lions. There are no good teams to play over there and besides Argentina would probably just move a test to Twickenham.
The financial benefit of a Lions tour is mainly for the host nation(s), not the Lions.
A bit churlish, perhaps?
A combined tour over two nations (as used to sometimes happen) would spread the load somewhat. It might prove to be a very popular boost for rugby in South America and Japan. And clearly they couldn't move a test to Twickenham since it's an outbound tour.
My point was that if the Argentinian Rugby Union feels the need to move a home test to England, they clearly don't make much money from them. I really just don't know who the Lions would play in Argentina. There is Argentina and the Jaguares (which are basically the same team anyway). In Japan you have a few teams to play but the Top League doesn't start until November. Therefore it is questionable whether you could get the players together.
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@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@hydro11 said in B&I Lions 2017:
No money in touring Argentina for the Lions. There are no good teams to play over there and besides Argentina would probably just move a test to Twickenham.
The financial benefit of a Lions tour is mainly for the host nation(s), not the Lions.
A bit churlish, perhaps?
A combined tour over two nations (as used to sometimes happen) would spread the load somewhat. It might prove to be a very popular boost for rugby in South America and Japan. And clearly they couldn't move a test to Twickenham since it's an outbound tour.
My point was that if the Argentinian Rugby Union feels the need to move a home test to England, they clearly don't make much money from them. I really just don't know who the Lions would play in Argentina. There is Argentina and the Jaguares (which are basically the same team anyway). In Japan you have a few teams to play but the Top League doesn't start until November. Therefore it is questionable whether you could get the players together.
@hydro11 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@hydro11 said in B&I Lions 2017:
No money in touring Argentina for the Lions. There are no good teams to play over there and besides Argentina would probably just move a test to Twickenham.
The financial benefit of a Lions tour is mainly for the host nation(s), not the Lions.
A bit churlish, perhaps?
A combined tour over two nations (as used to sometimes happen) would spread the load somewhat. It might prove to be a very popular boost for rugby in South America and Japan. And clearly they couldn't move a test to Twickenham since it's an outbound tour.
My point was that if the Argentinian Rugby Union feels the need to move a home test to England, they clearly don't make much money from them. I really just don't know who the Lions would play in Argentina. There is Argentina and the Jaguares (which are basically the same team anyway). In Japan you have a few teams to play but the Top League doesn't start until November. Therefore it is questionable whether you could get the players together.
Ah yes, I see what you mean.
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@Nepia I think It's a great thing. Can't think of many (any) major comps that suspend themselves for a month. Just as it was gaining momentum, it stops for a three test thumping of Wales, then the ABs stop while SR starts up again, then it ends and ABs start again. Will be a lot better having an uninterrupted SR comp not to mention an uninterrupted AB campaign. Some people i know did like the break though as found the SR going on that long too fatiguing??? -- so i guess no matter what they do with the scheduling there will always be someone who will find a way to get annoyed about it.
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Bit of an update on the global season discussion.
Apparently, despite the initial headline reports of agreement being reached, not everything is settled just yet - particularly amongst the Six Nations unions, and the privately-held clubs. And revenue sharing is still very much on the table from SANZAAR's point of view.
French club owners and FFR have been discussing changing the Top 14 to a 32 team competition and moving to a conference structure, similar to what PRO12 are considering. This apparently would shave 7 weeks off their current season, and bring them broadly in line with a start October and finish in June club season.
Bill Beaumont and Agustin Pichot have been pushing for moving the Six Nations forward by three weeks so that most test games would benefit from moving to Summer Time - most NH parties seem to be open to this proposal. (On a side note, the 6N is likely to agree before end of year to bring in a bonus point system for the competition, with extra points for teams playing additional away tests, every other year.)
There are misgivings in the 6N about a proposed NH season that would start in October and less than four weeks later, players would head into test matches. Whilst some of the Six Nations unions are loath to move the November internationals (strong revenue earners), there is a proposal on the table to shift all tours to July and August, and allow the club season to play through November, and potentially a short winter break could occur.
With the proposed scrapping of mid-year tests after a RWC, SANZAAR would lose out on much needed revenue and there is still strong discussion from SANZAAR about revenue sharing from all tests to compensate for this reduction in their home tests. In turn, this will present problems for the smaller unions in Ireland,Italy, Wales and Scotland, who depend heavily on test income to run the game in their countries, similar to Australia and New Zealand. This would likely see sharing of revenue from Lions tours come into the equation as well.
If both PRO12 and Top 14 leagues were to move to shorter duration league competitions, this would give them a run of 22 weeks between start of October and end of February. The Premiership, if it stays at 12 teams, could also fit into this slot. (Alternatively, would this allow the possibility of a conference-style model being adopted to create a British/Irish/Italian league of 24-28 teams?)
And what of the European Champions and Challenge Cups? Already there are noises about changes being made to the less than hoped for successor to the Heineken Cup, and potentially make it shorter in duration. In addition, should it be pushed to be played as a single block after the Six Nations with finals occurring in May/June, or would England and France in particular want to have the season end wth domestic leagues, and have the European competitions run as a block in Jan/Feb?
And, of course, the old chestnut of who is better at club level in a NH v SH competition is likely to be part of the picture, with eyes being cast on the vacant July spot after a RWC to hold a global club comp.
This has plenty of running left in it before the self-imposed deadline of agreement being reached by end of year.
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@Nepia I think It's a great thing. Can't think of many (any) major comps that suspend themselves for a month. Just as it was gaining momentum, it stops for a three test thumping of Wales, then the ABs stop while SR starts up again, then it ends and ABs start again. Will be a lot better having an uninterrupted SR comp not to mention an uninterrupted AB campaign. Some people i know did like the break though as found the SR going on that long too fatiguing??? -- so i guess no matter what they do with the scheduling there will always be someone who will find a way to get annoyed about it.
@GM1 said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Nepia I think It's a great thing. Can't think of many (any) major comps that suspend themselves for a month. Just as it was gaining momentum, it stops for a three test thumping of Wales, then the ABs stop while SR starts up again, then it ends and ABs start again. Will be a lot better having an uninterrupted SR comp not to mention an uninterrupted AB campaign. Some people i know did like the break though as found the SR going on that long too fatiguing??? -- so i guess no matter what they do with the scheduling there will always be someone who will find a way to get annoyed about it.
You can't think of any major comps that suspend themselves? Look at the mess of the NH season - League, Euro Cup, League, Euro Cup, League, Nov Tests, League, Euro Cup, Six Nations, League, Euro Cup, League, Euro finals, league playoffs and finals, travel south to be whacked by Oz, SA and NZ, collapse, rest and start again.
As for stopping the Super Rugby. Until SANZAR expanded Super Rugby to run longer, there wasn't a problem. Which is why SANZAAR now want the mid-year tests shifted to July. If they manage to persuade the some or all of the Six Nations unions to move November tests to mid-year as well, then it'll be a great days work for the four unions. Super Rugby (Feb-June), tests up North in July (either tests or global club comp), Inbound tests from NH in Aug (once every four years), then Rugby Championship to end season.
