All Blacks 2024
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
I think the big thing today showed, is the importance of 9 & 12 when you lack a world class 10.
Felt like we took huge steps back when Roigard went off as there was less of a threat around the ruck, meaning more attention was on B Barrett. As a result he then had to look wide, and ALB’s inability to run the crash ball took all the life out of our attack which looked really good - it was only then we went back to those silly little kicks.
I do wonder if (and granted a tinge of Highlanders bias) if Fakatava really does need to be looked at as the other halfback. For all his downside, he is probably the next best threat around the ruck (maybe Hotham?) and is quick to the breakdown. I really hope they have not written him off.
Have discussed in other threads, but really need Tupaea/McLeod to have a big season at 12, because they feel like more natural long-term solutions to the midfield depth than Lam for mine. Lam is a winger or centre at test level, and he ain’t better than Proctor.
Pretty speculative about Lam. On what basis do you make these claims?
Because 12 is a specialist position at test level. You need to be able to charge hard, distribute, and kick well - it is quite different to the role required at SR Level, hence why ALB works at 12 at SR level.
I think Lam has the carrying, but if he had those other attributes, he wouldn’t have been stuck out on the wing for most of his career. Far from a critique of Lam, who could still easily be the option on the wing.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
I think the big thing today showed, is the importance of 9 & 12 when you lack a world class 10.
Felt like we took huge steps back when Roigard went off as there was less of a threat around the ruck, meaning more attention was on B Barrett. As a result he then had to look wide, and ALB’s inability to run the crash ball took all the life out of our attack which looked really good - it was only then we went back to those silly little kicks.
I do wonder if (and granted a tinge of Highlanders bias) if Fakatava really does need to be looked at as the other halfback. For all his downside, he is probably the next best threat around the ruck (maybe Hotham?) and is quick to the breakdown. I really hope they have not written him off.
Have discussed in other threads, but really need Tupaea/McLeod to have a big season at 12, because they feel like more natural long-term solutions to the midfield depth than Lam for mine. Lam is a winger or centre at test level, and he ain’t better than Proctor.
Pretty speculative about Lam. On what basis do you make these claims?
Because 12 is a specialist position at test level. You need to be able to charge hard, distribute, and kick well - it is quite different to the role required at SR Level, hence why ALB works at 12 at SR level.
I think Lam has the carrying, but if he had those other attributes, he wouldn’t have been stuck out on the wing for most of his career. Far from a critique of Lam, who could still easily be the option on the wing.
History disagrees with you on this.
Name the two best midfielders we've had in the last 20 years, then talk about where they started as Super players.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby Ratima has been found out a little bit in the last couple of weeks. I still think he can improve, he needs to improve his speed of clearance, but he will feel the pressure to keep his spot next season
Ratima is a fantastic player, but reminds a little bit of the issue we had with Smith at the Highlanders. Incredible player, but not really a creative nine, so with an inferior 10 outside him, a lot of his good stuff is rendered useless
For me, his biggest problems are the charge downs, and his slow reaction time at the base of scrums and rucks. The difference when Cam is on is huge, he seems to have so much time, and just sweeps the ball off the deck to the 10 with ease
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby Ratima has been found out a little bit in the last couple of weeks. I still think he can improve, he needs to improve his speed of clearance, but he will feel the pressure to keep his spot next season
Ratima is a fantastic player, but reminds a little bit of the issue we had with Smith at the Highlanders. Incredible player, but not really a creative nine, so with an inferior 10 outside him, a lot of his good stuff is rendered useless
For me, his biggest problems are the charge downs, and his slow reaction time at the base of scrums and rucks. The difference when Cam is on is huge, he seems to have so much time, and just sweeps the ball off the deck to the 10 with ease
Yeah I agree.
Comparing Smith to Ratima doesn't wash It's not the same problem. Smith may have often been one dimensional but unlike Ratima Smith got to the base of the ruck and cleared the ball quickly with a lightening pass.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby Ratima has been found out a little bit in the last couple of weeks. I still think he can improve, he needs to improve his speed of clearance, but he will feel the pressure to keep his spot next season
Ratima is a fantastic player, but reminds a little bit of the issue we had with Smith at the Highlanders. Incredible player, but not really a creative nine, so with an inferior 10 outside him, a lot of his good stuff is rendered useless
For me, his biggest problems are the charge downs, and his slow reaction time at the base of scrums and rucks. The difference when Cam is on is huge, he seems to have so much time, and just sweeps the ball off the deck to the 10 with ease
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby Ratima has been found out a little bit in the last couple of weeks. I still think he can improve, he needs to improve his speed of clearance, but he will feel the pressure to keep his spot next season
Ratima is a fantastic player, but reminds a little bit of the issue we had with Smith at the Highlanders. Incredible player, but not really a creative nine, so with an inferior 10 outside him, a lot of his good stuff is rendered useless
For me, his biggest problems are the charge downs, and his slow reaction time at the base of scrums and rucks. The difference when Cam is on is huge, he seems to have so much time, and just sweeps the ball off the deck to the 10 with ease
I think Ratima has hit a wall the last couple of weeks.
He is young and it is his biggest season to date.
He could have done with a little bit of protection as everyone can see his form has dropped in the last few weeks.
He will come again but it is clear that Roigard is No. 1 now (and would have always been if it wasn’t for the injury)
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@frugby Ratima has been found out a little bit in the last couple of weeks. I still think he can improve, he needs to improve his speed of clearance, but he will feel the pressure to keep his spot next season
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby Ratima has been found out a little bit in the last couple of weeks. I still think he can improve, he needs to improve his speed of clearance, but he will feel the pressure to keep his spot next season
Whatever Ratima's failings in the last couple of games (and I thought his forwards needed to protect him more last week), the 9 jersey has been a def. uptick this year
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby Ratima has been found out a little bit in the last couple of weeks. I still think he can improve, he needs to improve his speed of clearance, but he will feel the pressure to keep his spot next season
Whatever Ratima's failings in the last couple of games (and I thought his forwards needed to protect him more last week), the 9 jersey has been a def. uptick this year
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby Ratima has been found out a little bit in the last couple of weeks. I still think he can improve, he needs to improve his speed of clearance, but he will feel the pressure to keep his spot next season
Whatever Ratima's failings in the last couple of games (and I thought his forwards needed to protect him more last week), the 9 jersey has been a def. uptick this year
I agree 100%. The pack and 9 are looking good. Dmac finished strong, BB is past his best and I'd like to see us move on. Clarke is reborn, Telea played great until he got hurt. Rieko was very solid, Jordie isn't at his best but was notable by his absence. WJ is rocks and diamonds, there are some good pieces there, we just need to be more clinical and sharpen up the gameplan
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
I think the big thing today showed, is the importance of 9 & 12 when you lack a world class 10.
Felt like we took huge steps back when Roigard went off as there was less of a threat around the ruck, meaning more attention was on B Barrett. As a result he then had to look wide, and ALB’s inability to run the crash ball took all the life out of our attack which looked really good - it was only then we went back to those silly little kicks.
I do wonder if (and granted a tinge of Highlanders bias) if Fakatava really does need to be looked at as the other halfback. For all his downside, he is probably the next best threat around the ruck (maybe Hotham?) and is quick to the breakdown. I really hope they have not written him off.
Have discussed in other threads, but really need Tupaea/McLeod to have a big season at 12, because they feel like more natural long-term solutions to the midfield depth than Lam for mine. Lam is a winger or centre at test level, and he ain’t better than Proctor.
Pretty speculative about Lam. On what basis do you make these claims?
Because 12 is a specialist position at test level. You need to be able to charge hard, distribute, and kick well - it is quite different to the role required at SR Level, hence why ALB works at 12 at SR level.
I think Lam has the carrying, but if he had those other attributes, he wouldn’t have been stuck out on the wing for most of his career. Far from a critique of Lam, who could still easily be the option on the wing.
History disagrees with you on this.
Name the two best midfielders we've had in the last 20 years, then talk about where they started as Super players.
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
I think the big thing today showed, is the importance of 9 & 12 when you lack a world class 10.
Felt like we took huge steps back when Roigard went off as there was less of a threat around the ruck, meaning more attention was on B Barrett. As a result he then had to look wide, and ALB’s inability to run the crash ball took all the life out of our attack which looked really good - it was only then we went back to those silly little kicks.
I do wonder if (and granted a tinge of Highlanders bias) if Fakatava really does need to be looked at as the other halfback. For all his downside, he is probably the next best threat around the ruck (maybe Hotham?) and is quick to the breakdown. I really hope they have not written him off.
Have discussed in other threads, but really need Tupaea/McLeod to have a big season at 12, because they feel like more natural long-term solutions to the midfield depth than Lam for mine. Lam is a winger or centre at test level, and he ain’t better than Proctor.
Pretty speculative about Lam. On what basis do you make these claims?
Because 12 is a specialist position at test level. You need to be able to charge hard, distribute, and kick well - it is quite different to the role required at SR Level, hence why ALB works at 12 at SR level.
I think Lam has the carrying, but if he had those other attributes, he wouldn’t have been stuck out on the wing for most of his career. Far from a critique of Lam, who could still easily be the option on the wing.
History disagrees with you on this.
Name the two best midfielders we've had in the last 20 years, then talk about where they started as Super players.
Umaga played 13 mostly as I recall it , and it can work - as Rieko has shown.
Nonu the exception not the rule at 12. Lam I feel is a winger who has ended up in the midfield because that is where the gap was. Not meant as a critique of Lam, and I think he could probably cover the role off the bench at a pinch… just feel we could do better.
and the other thing is, I’ll happily be wrong, more just a gut feel that he isn’t the long-term solution as a second choice 12.
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A crap year by AB standards but decent by all others.
I think Robertson has a good platform to build and launch on.
I worry about our attack vs good defense and our ability to capitalise on breaks.
For me BB is done and Barrett needs to back the team more with his captaincy decisions. That last penalty was kick to the corner all day. Even if we blow the maul and lose possession we get a lineout at most 30 meters out.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
I think the big thing today showed, is the importance of 9 & 12 when you lack a world class 10.
Felt like we took huge steps back when Roigard went off as there was less of a threat around the ruck, meaning more attention was on B Barrett. As a result he then had to look wide, and ALB’s inability to run the crash ball took all the life out of our attack which looked really good - it was only then we went back to those silly little kicks.
I do wonder if (and granted a tinge of Highlanders bias) if Fakatava really does need to be looked at as the other halfback. For all his downside, he is probably the next best threat around the ruck (maybe Hotham?) and is quick to the breakdown. I really hope they have not written him off.
Have discussed in other threads, but really need Tupaea/McLeod to have a big season at 12, because they feel like more natural long-term solutions to the midfield depth than Lam for mine. Lam is a winger or centre at test level, and he ain’t better than Proctor.
Pretty speculative about Lam. On what basis do you make these claims?
Because 12 is a specialist position at test level. You need to be able to charge hard, distribute, and kick well - it is quite different to the role required at SR Level, hence why ALB works at 12 at SR level.
I think Lam has the carrying, but if he had those other attributes, he wouldn’t have been stuck out on the wing for most of his career. Far from a critique of Lam, who could still easily be the option on the wing.
History disagrees with you on this.
Name the two best midfielders we've had in the last 20 years, then talk about where they started as Super players.
Umaga played 13 mostly as I recall it , and it can work - as Rieko has shown.
Nonu the exception not the rule at 12. Lam I feel is a winger who has ended up in the midfield because that is where the gap was. Not meant as a critique of Lam, and I think he could probably cover the role off the bench at a pinch… just feel we could do better.
and the other thing is, I’ll happily be wrong, more just a gut feel that he isn’t the long-term solution as a second choice 12.
I'm not sure either, but history shows that the ABs have had great success with moving guys from wing to midfield.
Tana was a bit of an exception as he had speed and size, so could play 12/13, and while he was primarily a 13, his last game was at 12, and he played the 3rd Lions test (and some others) at 12.
I bring it up because Lam has the speed to be a 13, but also the size to be effective at 12. Personally, if I were at the Blues, I'd lock him in there and then we'll get to see next year.
Edit: I think the final point is that when guys get to the absolute top, they have to make the side playing a position where their body matches with the needs of the position. I think that's why we need more size at 12, it's just part and parcel of the position.
Recently, we've seen Tosi and Williams move from 8 to prop and that capability to be a ball runner and distributor seems to be the need of the absolute best props at the highest levels.
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Georgia’s Niniashvili is the fullback AB fans wish Will Jordan would be.
Check out the try he just created against Italy. Wow!
Jordan is not the answer at 15 for me. Right wing, he is elite. So premier NZ back 3 is 11. Clarke 14. Jordan 15. TBD
2025 is the year to find a fullback!
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
I think the big thing today showed, is the importance of 9 & 12 when you lack a world class 10.
Felt like we took huge steps back when Roigard went off as there was less of a threat around the ruck, meaning more attention was on B Barrett. As a result he then had to look wide, and ALB’s inability to run the crash ball took all the life out of our attack which looked really good - it was only then we went back to those silly little kicks.
I do wonder if (and granted a tinge of Highlanders bias) if Fakatava really does need to be looked at as the other halfback. For all his downside, he is probably the next best threat around the ruck (maybe Hotham?) and is quick to the breakdown. I really hope they have not written him off.
Have discussed in other threads, but really need Tupaea/McLeod to have a big season at 12, because they feel like more natural long-term solutions to the midfield depth than Lam for mine. Lam is a winger or centre at test level, and he ain’t better than Proctor.
Pretty speculative about Lam. On what basis do you make these claims?
Because 12 is a specialist position at test level. You need to be able to charge hard, distribute, and kick well - it is quite different to the role required at SR Level, hence why ALB works at 12 at SR level.
I think Lam has the carrying, but if he had those other attributes, he wouldn’t have been stuck out on the wing for most of his career. Far from a critique of Lam, who could still easily be the option on the wing.
History disagrees with you on this.
Name the two best midfielders we've had in the last 20 years, then talk about where they started as Super players.
Umaga played 13 mostly as I recall it , and it can work - as Rieko has shown.
Nonu the exception not the rule at 12. Lam I feel is a winger who has ended up in the midfield because that is where the gap was. Not meant as a critique of Lam, and I think he could probably cover the role off the bench at a pinch… just feel we could do better.
and the other thing is, I’ll happily be wrong, more just a gut feel that he isn’t the long-term solution as a second choice 12.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
Lam I feel is a winger who has ended up in the midfield because that is where the gap was. Not meant as a critique of Lam, and I think he could probably cover the role off the bench at a pinch… just feel we could do better.
Have you actually seen Lam play 12? He immediately looked at home at 12 for the Blues and Auckland this year. It seems to really suit his game.
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Georgia’s Niniashvili is the fullback AB fans wish Will Jordan would be.
Check out the try he just created against Italy. Wow!
Jordan is not the answer at 15 for me. Right wing, he is elite. So premier NZ back 3 is 11. Clarke 14. Jordan 15. TBD
2025 is the year to find a fullback!
@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
Georgia’s Niniashvili is the fullback AB fans wish Will Jordan would be.
Check out the try he just created against Italy. Wow!
Jordan is not the answer at 15 for me. Right wing, he is elite. So premier NZ back 3 is 11. Clarke 14. Jordan 15. TBD
2025 is the year to find a fullback!
Ruben Love is an obvious choice for me when fit.
Agree that Jordan needs to go back to the wing.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
Lam I feel is a winger who has ended up in the midfield because that is where the gap was. Not meant as a critique of Lam, and I think he could probably cover the role off the bench at a pinch… just feel we could do better.
Have you actually seen Lam play 12? He immediately looked at home at 12 for the Blues and Auckland this year. It seems to really suit his game.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
Lam I feel is a winger who has ended up in the midfield because that is where the gap was. Not meant as a critique of Lam, and I think he could probably cover the role off the bench at a pinch… just feel we could do better.
Have you actually seen Lam play 12? He immediately looked at home at 12 for the Blues and Auckland this year. It seems to really suit his game.
Yes I have. This is why I have caveated with the fact I’m not 100% sure; but Havili, ALB, etc. have looked at home at 12 at SR level.
Playing 12 at test level is a whole different kettle of fish though, and I don’t know if he is the answer long-term.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
Lam I feel is a winger who has ended up in the midfield because that is where the gap was. Not meant as a critique of Lam, and I think he could probably cover the role off the bench at a pinch… just feel we could do better.
Have you actually seen Lam play 12? He immediately looked at home at 12 for the Blues and Auckland this year. It seems to really suit his game.
Yes I have. This is why I have caveated with the fact I’m not 100% sure; but Havili, ALB, etc. have looked at home at 12 at SR level.
Playing 12 at test level is a whole different kettle of fish though, and I don’t know if he is the answer long-term.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
Lam I feel is a winger who has ended up in the midfield because that is where the gap was. Not meant as a critique of Lam, and I think he could probably cover the role off the bench at a pinch… just feel we could do better.
Have you actually seen Lam play 12? He immediately looked at home at 12 for the Blues and Auckland this year. It seems to really suit his game.
Yes I have. This is why I have caveated with the fact I’m not 100% sure; but Havili, ALB, etc. have looked at home at 12 at SR level.
Playing 12 at test level is a whole different kettle of fish though, and I don’t know if he is the answer long-term.
Can't argue with that - I just think he looks more comfortable at 12 than you are giving him credit for - he doesn't look like a wing playing 12 (I remember Rieko at 12.... yikes).
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Just had a physio session with a Safa who worked on the SA Sevens team. His view on the All Blacks:
"Forwards are pretty good, dunno what the f**k you guys are doing with your flyhalves but your weak link by a mile, is your centres".
He really doesn't like Ioane & thinks Barrett might have a longer term injury. Just one mans opinion of course, but I thought worth sharing!
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I suspect it would be worth recruiting a specialist scrum coach. What chances that we will have one next year?
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I suspect it would be worth recruiting a specialist scrum coach. What chances that we will have one next year?
@Tim said in All Blacks 2024:
I suspect it would be worth recruiting a specialist scrum coach. What chances that we will have one next year?
That is Jason Ryan’s ‘expertise’. Has been scrum coach for multiple previous teams and even had a ‘front row club’ which worked specifically with props and hookers in New Zealand. Hard to imagine they bring a specialist scrum coach in with him already there.
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Peering into the crystal ball and trying to make out the shape of next year's squad, although there are red and black barriers that appear intermittently and obscure my vision.
Loose forwards:
Papalii
Lakai
Savea
Sotutu
Sititi
The last one is a bit hard to make out, there's Finau, there's another player in a six jersey, but a really overrated player, who's lying injured on the field, keeps obscuring my view.
