All Blacks 2024
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On the forwards, I think people are being far too generous. I made this comment in the Italy thread but it's better for here - our front row and hookers are great, our locks good though the captain has not been playing very well, and our loose forwards are an absolute shambles due to very poor selections and game plan. I'd be loathe to give them more than a C+ in the forwards based on that.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
On the forwards, I think people are being far too generous. I made this comment in the Italy thread but it's better for here - our front row and hookers are great, our locks good though the captain has not been playing very well, and our loose forwards are an absolute shambles due to very poor selections and game plan. I'd be loathe to give them more than a C+ in the forwards based on that.
The tight five has gone way better than anyone expected this year, and the loose trio is undergoing repairs.
As I say, reckon long-term to balance it we need a smashing blindside, but more than anything, we probably need to make a slight tactical tweak to have one of the locks or loose forwards smashing more rucks when he have the . Holland I believe hit the most rucks per game of any NZ lock in SR, so could help solve the issues.
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Also Jordie Barrett the play maker?? with that passing game and that decision making? riiiight
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
limited 10 outside him
wait what? Ramos is a terrific player
Terrific fullback, but a limited first five in the sense he is not a natural first receiver
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Also Jordie Barrett the play maker?? with that passing game and that decision making? riiiight
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
Also Jordie Barrett the play maker?? with that passing game and that decision making? riiiight
Not talking about Barrett as a playmaker, but more so his big ranging boot. It is how you use the tools.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
Also Jordie Barrett the play maker?? with that passing game and that decision making? riiiight
Not talking about Barrett as a playmaker, but more so his big ranging boot. It is how you use the tools.
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@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
let’s see what Super Rugby brings
Why? Doesn't make a blind bit of difference to selection to the ABs
that entire post could have been made 12 months ago
and yet here we are, still wheeling out the 2023 All Blacks
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
let’s see what Super Rugby brings
Why? Doesn't make a blind bit of difference to selection to the ABs
that entire post could have been made 12 months ago
and yet here we are, still wheeling out the 2023 All Blacks
Quite possibly, yes, but I think as fans we are often guilty of wanting to change too much too quickly.
Look at the Wallabies under Eddie Jones, dropped a whole lot of established players, picked ordinary ones, and it actually got worse.
I think it is eminently possible, that most of the guys currently in the 24-29 age range in NZ aren’t actually that good (in line with the results of the U20s). Which is why the ABs are playing order guys who used to be good.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
let’s see what Super Rugby brings
Why? Doesn't make a blind bit of difference to selection to the ABs
that entire post could have been made 12 months ago
and yet here we are, still wheeling out the 2023 All Blacks
Quite possibly, yes, but I think as fans we are often guilty of wanting to change too much too quickly.
Look at the Wallabies under Eddie Jones, dropped a whole lot of established players, picked ordinary ones, and it actually got worse.
I think it is eminently possible, that most of the guys currently in the 24-29 age range in NZ aren’t actually that good (in line with the results of the U20s). Which is why the ABs are playing order guys who used to be good.
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
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I didn’t mind some of the back play/patterns we employed against the English. Seemed to deal with their rush defence well and created opportunities. While Richie Mo has never quite clicked at intl level, I think he found a point of balance just doing the basics well at the WC. I do like the thought of Roigard, Mo’unga, Jordie, Leicester F, Caleb (left), Jordan (right and either DMac or BB at FB. We could then blood some players like Proctor, Love etc and let the cream rise to the top. Backline currently feels unbalanced, ironically that was my gripe with the loosies, but Sititi seems to have settled that balance with his dynamic play but ability to do tight stuff (need to resolve post-Cane of course).
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@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
Havili and ALB have had their time. Absolutely need to introduce new options there. Neither offers enough. Reiko still has something in him, but how do we unlock it consistently?
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
Also Jordie Barrett the play maker?? with that passing game and that decision making? riiiight
Not talking about Barrett as a playmaker, but more so his big ranging boot. It is how you use the tools.
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
Also Jordie Barrett the play maker?? with that passing game and that decision making? riiiight
Not talking about Barrett as a playmaker, but more so his big ranging boot. It is how you use the tools.
Out shit field kicking and touch finding (occasional DMac aside) really grinds my gears. Aussie have always been better at this - AFL influence maybe? And the European teams seem to get a lot more distance than us too.
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@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
coughsotutucough
the jordie "big boot" barrett idea....maybe 4 years ago...but like anything if you dont use something if atrophies....if he still have ths canon...and has started all/most games....why not use it?
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I’d back Razor to be across these issues and to be able to fix them.
The only thing stopping Razor I think is himself. Unlike Foster, he provably has the ability as a head coach, and success has followed him at all levels.
The key issue next year will be selection, because despite everything, I’d argue we outplayed everyone in every test (from a tactical standpoint) except for maybe the Boks, but even then it is splitting hairs.
The forwards I think is more about evolution than revolution.
We have got 6 good props, 2 very good hookers + a good young prospect in Bell and hopefully a returning Samasoni, so no issues in the front row.
Six locks have been in the squad this year, IMO, have to get Holland in the 23, but this is evolution rather than revolution.
Loose forwards, in Sititi, Savea, Lakai and Papalii, we have the makings of a great loose forward trio. I think long-term, we probably need a hulking blindside, but that could be Haig and Finau who have already been in the squad, with Sititi/Savea at 8.
Backline might be more about revolution though.
Halfback, we have Roigard, then open season. I hope they haven’t written off Fakatava, because he is the closest in play-style to Roigard, and in the absence of a world beating first five, playing off 9 is important. Ratima has some work to do, but should be retained… feel like Hotham is TJ mark two.
First Five, may need to tweak the game plan to factor that neither BB or DMac are great playmakers. Boks have played great rugby with Pollard at 10, so food for thought as to whether you need a running first five. Hard to see how Jacomb makes inroads sitting behind DMac, Plummer is overseas, the Canes and Crusaders 10s don’t seem to be there. Not going to pretend like I’m not a bit biased, but it Millar has a solid season, when the music stops he might be the last one standing.
Midfield, J Barrett is by far and away our best 12. No coincidence we played our worst rugby this year when he was off the field. ALB is not a 12, so need to find good backup. Ioane had a good year, but next year we really need to test if Proctor can be even better - which we won’t know until we try. Havili and ALB should be swept out… Higgins, Tupaea and McLeod these ones to watch as squadies I think.
Outside Backs, need revolution here. Clarke had a good year, Jordan had a good year and Tele’a ended the year well, but feel like the rest is open season. To help control test matches, the second fullback model I think is needed. Jordan back to the wing, as he is always going to be the best fullback on the wing (Like B Smith) and let’s look at a couple of fullbacks. Love the obvious one already in the environment.
Room for some bolters, let’s see what Super Rugby brings, and I think we can really judge where this team is heading at the end of next year.
@frugby Fakatava plays his own game, often to the detriment of his own team.
Our halfbacks will be just fine as long as the forwards provide some go-forward and quality ball at the ruck. Roigard had the same issues Ratima was criticised for in the previous tests, because he was harassed by the Italians.
A problem for me is that some of the current ABs won't necessarily be playing in that same position for their SR teams. Think Sititi at the Chiefs, BB at the Blues and maybe even Lakai at the Hurricanes. I've no idea where MP will play Savea. It probably won't matter to Robertson though.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
Havili and ALB have had their time. Absolutely need to introduce new options there. Neither offers enough. Reiko still has something in him, but how do we unlock it consistently?
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
Havili and ALB have had their time. Absolutely need to introduce new options there. Neither offers enough. Reiko still has something in him, but how do we unlock it consistently?
Give him some time and space for one thing. Plummer seemed to do it during Super. Of course the Blues backs stood a little deeper
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@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
Havili and ALB have had their time. Absolutely need to introduce new options there. Neither offers enough. Reiko still has something in him, but how do we unlock it consistently?
Give him some time and space for one thing. Plummer seemed to do it during Super. Of course the Blues backs stood a little deeper
@canefan thats the kind of heretical coaching ideas that wont be tolerated around here!
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@frugby Fakatava plays his own game, often to the detriment of his own team.
Our halfbacks will be just fine as long as the forwards provide some go-forward and quality ball at the ruck. Roigard had the same issues Ratima was criticised for in the previous tests, because he was harassed by the Italians.
A problem for me is that some of the current ABs won't necessarily be playing in that same position for their SR teams. Think Sititi at the Chiefs, BB at the Blues and maybe even Lakai at the Hurricanes. I've no idea where MP will play Savea. It probably won't matter to Robertson though.
@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby Fakatava plays his own game, often to the detriment of his own team.
Our halfbacks will be just fine as long as the forwards provide some go-forward and quality ball at the ruck. Roigard had the same issues Ratima was criticised for in the previous tests, because he was harassed by the Italians.
A problem for me is that some of the current ABs won't necessarily be playing in that same position for their SR teams. Think Sititi at the Chiefs, BB at the Blues and maybe even Lakai at the Hurricanes. I've no idea where MP will play Savea. It probably won't matter to Robertson though.
Without the explicit need for a fetcher, I would let Sititi play at no 8 moving forward and Ardie can refashion himself as a 7 again. Super teams won’t follow suit, of course.
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@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
Havili and ALB have had their time. Absolutely need to introduce new options there. Neither offers enough. Reiko still has something in him, but how do we unlock it consistently?
Give him some time and space for one thing. Plummer seemed to do it during Super. Of course the Blues backs stood a little deeper
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
Havili and ALB have had their time. Absolutely need to introduce new options there. Neither offers enough. Reiko still has something in him, but how do we unlock it consistently?
Give him some time and space for one thing. Plummer seemed to do it during Super. Of course the Blues backs stood a little deeper
reeks seems to have one job with AB's which is crash ball. He just aint that big ball carrier type though.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
Havili and ALB have had their time. Absolutely need to introduce new options there. Neither offers enough. Reiko still has something in him, but how do we unlock it consistently?
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
Havili and ALB have had their time. Absolutely need to introduce new options there. Neither offers enough. Reiko still has something in him, but how do we unlock it consistently?
Not have a gameplan that not only asks him to crash ball, but to receive passes at the same time as he gets tackled. Fastest bloke on the team and that's the genius level coaching maximising player's strengths.
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Surely a simple use of Jordie and Rieko's talents is to have Jordie on the crash ball early on to suck in defenders, then later on throw the cut out to Rieko in a bit of space where he can get on the outside shoulder of the defender? Or am I just under thinking that and our genius coaches are playing 4D chess??
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
big ranging boot
absolute myth
Not a total myth, but it's not accurate enough to use as a genuine clearing option from phase play. More if we are stuck deep in our 22 and we want someone to just absolutely hoof it down field to relieve some pressure.
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
Havili and ALB have had their time. Absolutely need to introduce new options there. Neither offers enough. Reiko still has something in him, but how do we unlock it consistently?
Give him some time and space for one thing. Plummer seemed to do it during Super. Of course the Blues backs stood a little deeper
reeks seems to have one job with AB's which is crash ball. He just aint that big ball carrier type though.
@WillieTheWaiter said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby you say 'let's see what Super Rugby brings'
A number of guys carved up in Super Rugby this year and were barely given an opportunity.
Lam
Love
ProctorEtc etc
And the irony is - for the most part - the guys who were given a shot in black on the back of Super rugby form looked good.
Meanwhile these established guys rack up test after test with mediocrity (Havili, ALB, Rieko, Jacobson etc).
Havili and ALB have had their time. Absolutely need to introduce new options there. Neither offers enough. Reiko still has something in him, but how do we unlock it consistently?
Give him some time and space for one thing. Plummer seemed to do it during Super. Of course the Blues backs stood a little deeper
reeks seems to have one job with AB's which is crash ball. He just aint that big ball carrier type though.
Weird. He’s the greatest Rugby athlete ever according to some on here.
