All Blacks 2025
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster I want to see some improvement in selection and tactics in 2025
Me too. I thought our tactics were a bit naive in the initial part of the year but we balanced out our approach the longer the year panned out.
I want a more merit based selection approach and want a heavier weighting applied to super rugby form.
The ABs were always a meritocracy. There was never much room for sentimentality, just ask Buck. I think we agree the ABs don't feel like a meritocracy right now, and it is holding us back
I disagree Grubs, I don't think any AB coach doesn't select players that they believe are best for the team or tactics etc they are playing. I don't really think we are almost ever the people to decide who merits selection. The unfortunate thing is most of us pick on emotion (ie favourite players/team etc). And do our selecting from what we see on our tv screens. And Buck was one who said that when he was running a training at our club in Brisbane. No coach will ever pick players he doesn't think will be good for his team, as it's his rep on the line.
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster I want to see some improvement in selection and tactics in 2025
Me too. I thought our tactics were a bit naive in the initial part of the year but we balanced out our approach the longer the year panned out.
I want a more merit based selection approach and want a heavier weighting applied to super rugby form.
The ABs were always a meritocracy. There was never much room for sentimentality, just ask Buck. I think we agree the ABs don't feel like a meritocracy right now, and it is holding us back
I disagree Grubs, I don't think any AB coach doesn't select players that they believe are best for the team or tactics etc they are playing. I don't really think we are almost ever the people to decide who merits selection. The unfortunate thing is most of us pick on emotion (ie favourite players/team etc). And do our selecting from what we see on our tv screens. And Buck was one who said that when he was running a training at our club in Brisbane. No coach will ever pick players he doesn't think will be good for his team, as it's his rep on the line.
Were you replying to my post there Danny?
I agree that selectors are doing what they think are right for the team as it’s their team and ultimately their reputation , career on the line.
Yes, there is far more that goes into selecting than is armchair selectors think of course, but I have been been been a stakeholder in NZ rugby for decades now and played a little bit as you know. I was never a great rugby player but that doesn’t stop me being able to be pretty knowledgeable about what I am seeing and generally my ‘gut feel’ is fairly accurate. I do tend to overestimate the quality of NZ players still but that is just natural bias I suppose.
The reasoning for my assertion about super rugby is that we seem to be in the mindset that it is not producing players for test rugby. But if we think about the impact some players have had over the last 15months then I think that that it’s produced some pretty exciting talent for the All Blacks over that time.
Razor built his reputation from super rugby so if anyone knows the value of it then it should be him. If he doesn’t think it is a comp that is up to it from a player point of view then what does that say about his coaching achievements?
I get his reasoning for selecting Cane, TJ, Barrett, ALB and they had good games and not so good as results show.
I don’t get his reasoning for pushing a number of Crusader based players for cover/squad players all the time - this is the All Blacks not the cantablacks and it is demoralising for players who aren’t from a certain franchise.
I get it from a coaching point of view - choosing who he has worked with - but it has blown up in his face Very early and his response wise a crusaders coach. It’s a minor quibble but he has to show he has let go of any provincial bias.
I think we have the makings of a very strong AB squad that can go to RWC2027 and a lot of it is in place but I don’t want someone like Love to be held back so we nurse Barrett through another 20 caps etc. be bold, pick players that excel in super rugby and build shared experience together (nothing beats winning and losing together on a journey. Far better than getting experience under another coach. You want a core of players who have gone through it together, learnt together and suffered and celebrated together) and have 30-40 test cap All Blacks that have debuted for him that are then world class by the next World Cup.
That’s my rambling thoughts
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster I want to see some improvement in selection and tactics in 2025
Me too. I thought our tactics were a bit naive in the initial part of the year but we balanced out our approach the longer the year panned out.
I want a more merit based selection approach and want a heavier weighting applied to super rugby form.
The ABs were always a meritocracy. There was never much room for sentimentality, just ask Buck. I think we agree the ABs don't feel like a meritocracy right now, and it is holding us back
I disagree Grubs, I don't think any AB coach doesn't select players that they believe are best for the team or tactics etc they are playing. I don't really think we are almost ever the people to decide who merits selection. The unfortunate thing is most of us pick on emotion (ie favourite players/team etc). And do our selecting from what we see on our tv screens. And Buck was one who said that when he was running a training at our club in Brisbane. No coach will ever pick players he doesn't think will be good for his team, as it's his rep on the line.
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster I want to see some improvement in selection and tactics in 2025
Me too. I thought our tactics were a bit naive in the initial part of the year but we balanced out our approach the longer the year panned out.
I want a more merit based selection approach and want a heavier weighting applied to super rugby form.
The ABs were always a meritocracy. There was never much room for sentimentality, just ask Buck. I think we agree the ABs don't feel like a meritocracy right now, and it is holding us back
I disagree Grubs, I don't think any AB coach doesn't select players that they believe are best for the team or tactics etc they are playing. I don't really think we are almost ever the people to decide who merits selection. The unfortunate thing is most of us pick on emotion (ie favourite players/team etc). And do our selecting from what we see on our tv screens. And Buck was one who said that when he was running a training at our club in Brisbane. No coach will ever pick players he doesn't think will be good for his team, as it's his rep on the line.
Whilst I have no doubt Razor like any coach is selecting the team he believes is best - that doesn't necessarily mean his selection instincts/methodology is strong/correct.
Razor may have access to a lot more information behind his decision making than the fans but ultimately he is judged by the play on the field - that's the arbiter of truth.
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Absolutely gobsmacked at this blind defence of the coaches. Unbelievable.
Back to true form. On ya Dan.
@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
Absolutely gobsmacked at this blind defence of the coaches. Unbelievable.
Back to true form. On ya Dan.
Bones that's not blind defence, not saying they alwaysd right, but only an idiot thinks any coach wouldn't pick who he (or she) doesn't pick who they think is best for what he wants the team to do. It's their reputation they rying to build etc. Every person on here that has coached I guarantee picked players THEY thought was best for team.
Mater that's not blind defence , but just realsism, and knowing almost all people including coaches have an ego. I know I did:beaming_face_with_smiling_eyes:
F*** me I would of had a different coach of AB if I had say, not saying I right or wrong, but how the hell is that blindly defending coach. -
@DaGrubster , mate I was just saying the idea that anyone doesn't select on merit is wrong. Not sure what they use , or saying they should or shouldn't use Super form.
I don't believe players are knowingly selected for sentimental reasons. I looked at people who rubbished why TJP and Cane were selected this season and said it was sentimental etc. I personally would of picked them both as I thought they were within the best for their positions when they picked. .I perhaps am not right, but I say that from what I think. I didn't agree with all AB selections, but tend to get proved wrong by players I not sure about anyway. -
Actually on ABs for this year forward, does anyone think that players like Caleb Clarke and Jordie Barrett are going to be more important to team. With the tweak of laws where the blockers are now not able to protect catchers of the kicks , I think the likes of JB will be more important for contesting ball in air and Clarke already does it well. Also will 9s have to be able to box kick etc more accurately? Really started to see it at EOYT, but think it will now become one of things players will get selected on.
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@DaGrubster , mate I was just saying the idea that anyone doesn't select on merit is wrong. Not sure what they use , or saying they should or shouldn't use Super form.
I don't believe players are knowingly selected for sentimental reasons. I looked at people who rubbished why TJP and Cane were selected this season and said it was sentimental etc. I personally would of picked them both as I thought they were within the best for their positions when they picked. .I perhaps am not right, but I say that from what I think. I didn't agree with all AB selections, but tend to get proved wrong by players I not sure about anyway.@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster , mate I was just saying the idea that anyone doesn't select on merit is wrong. Not sure what they use , or saying they should or shouldn't use Super form.
I don't believe players are knowingly selected for sentimental reasons. I looked at people who rubbished why TJP and Cane were selected this season and said it was sentimental etc. I personally would of picked them both as I thought they were within the best for their positions when they picked. .I perhaps am not right, but I say that from what I think. I didn't agree with all AB selections, but tend to get proved wrong by players I not sure about anyway.I know what you are saying mate, and there is some truth in it. But two pieces of evidence suggest Razor is also a homer who doesn't pick players deserving based on SR form, those are Hoskins Sotutu (voted SR player of the year) and Fihaki, who could barely make the Crusaders squad. Not to mention his incessant fapping over the idea of being able to select Moounga now
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I fear Robertson is John Hart 2.0. Except Hart inherited a great side and therefore enjoyed two illustrious years despite himself.
I hope NZR don't indulge Razor to the extent Eddie Tonks did Hart or we will see Mounga steering a sinking ship.
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I fear Robertson is John Hart 2.0. Except Hart inherited a great side and therefore enjoyed two illustrious years despite himself.
I hope NZR don't indulge Razor to the extent Eddie Tonks did Hart or we will see Mounga steering a sinking ship.
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2025:
I fear Robertson is John Hart 2.0. Except Hart inherited a great side and therefore enjoyed two illustrious years despite himself.
I hope NZR don't indulge Razor to the extent Eddie Tonks did Hart or we will see Mounga steering a sinking ship.
Hart did drop an excellent Glen Osborne for Christian Cullen though.
Razor would have waited for an injury before taking a punt like that
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@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2025:
I fear Robertson is John Hart 2.0. Except Hart inherited a great side and therefore enjoyed two illustrious years despite himself.
I hope NZR don't indulge Razor to the extent Eddie Tonks did Hart or we will see Mounga steering a sinking ship.
Hart did drop an excellent Glen Osborne for Christian Cullen though.
Razor would have waited for an injury before taking a punt like that
To reinforce my point. Mains wanted to choose Cully for his last NH tour but Tonks restricted him to 26 players so Cullen should have had a cap before Hart took over.
Then Hart chose Adrian Cashmore ahead of Oz and doubled down by ignoring the evidence that Osborne was the best option at 13 with his Goldie at 15 miracle call. Harts far from the worst AB coach but he'd have to be in the running for most poisonous and over-rated.
Anyway I really hope Robertson comes good next year. We've had seven successive seasons of pretty inconsistent AB performances. More than time to start producing the goods
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To reinforce my point. Mains wanted to choose Cully for his last NH tour but Tonks restricted him to 26 players so Cullen should have had a cap before Hart took over.
Then Hart chose Adrian Cashmore ahead of Oz and doubled down by ignoring the evidence that Osborne was the best option at 13 with his Goldie at 15 miracle call. Harts far from the worst AB coach but he'd have to be in the running for most poisonous and over-rated.
Anyway I really hope Robertson comes good next year. We've had seven successive seasons of pretty inconsistent AB performances. More than time to start producing the goods
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2025:
To reinforce my point. Mains wanted to choose Cully for his last NH tour but Tonks restricted him to 26 players so Cullen should have had a cap before Hart took over.
Then Hart chose Adrian Cashmore ahead of Oz and doubled down by ignoring the evidence that Osborne was the best option at 13 with his Goldie at 15 miracle call. Harts far from the worst AB coach but he'd have to be in the running for most poisonous and over-rated.
Anyway I really hope Robertson comes good next year. We've had seven successive seasons of pretty inconsistent AB performances. More than time to start producing the goods
I never knew that, I always remember Cullen emerging in Super Rugby. Would Mains have really picked him based on a season of second division Rugby ?
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@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2025:
To reinforce my point. Mains wanted to choose Cully for his last NH tour but Tonks restricted him to 26 players so Cullen should have had a cap before Hart took over.
Then Hart chose Adrian Cashmore ahead of Oz and doubled down by ignoring the evidence that Osborne was the best option at 13 with his Goldie at 15 miracle call. Harts far from the worst AB coach but he'd have to be in the running for most poisonous and over-rated.
Anyway I really hope Robertson comes good next year. We've had seven successive seasons of pretty inconsistent AB performances. More than time to start producing the goods
I never knew that, I always remember Cullen emerging in Super Rugby. Would Mains have really picked him based on a season of second division Rugby ?
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2025:
To reinforce my point. Mains wanted to choose Cully for his last NH tour but Tonks restricted him to 26 players so Cullen should have had a cap before Hart took over.
Then Hart chose Adrian Cashmore ahead of Oz and doubled down by ignoring the evidence that Osborne was the best option at 13 with his Goldie at 15 miracle call. Harts far from the worst AB coach but he'd have to be in the running for most poisonous and over-rated.
Anyway I really hope Robertson comes good next year. We've had seven successive seasons of pretty inconsistent AB performances. More than time to start producing the goods
I never knew that, I always remember Cullen emerging in Super Rugby. Would Mains have really picked him based on a season of second division Rugby ?
That was before his amazing Hong Kong sevens too
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@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2025:
To reinforce my point. Mains wanted to choose Cully for his last NH tour but Tonks restricted him to 26 players so Cullen should have had a cap before Hart took over.
Then Hart chose Adrian Cashmore ahead of Oz and doubled down by ignoring the evidence that Osborne was the best option at 13 with his Goldie at 15 miracle call. Harts far from the worst AB coach but he'd have to be in the running for most poisonous and over-rated.
Anyway I really hope Robertson comes good next year. We've had seven successive seasons of pretty inconsistent AB performances. More than time to start producing the goods
I never knew that, I always remember Cullen emerging in Super Rugby. Would Mains have really picked him based on a season of second division Rugby ?
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2025:
To reinforce my point. Mains wanted to choose Cully for his last NH tour but Tonks restricted him to 26 players so Cullen should have had a cap before Hart took over.
Then Hart chose Adrian Cashmore ahead of Oz and doubled down by ignoring the evidence that Osborne was the best option at 13 with his Goldie at 15 miracle call. Harts far from the worst AB coach but he'd have to be in the running for most poisonous and over-rated.
Anyway I really hope Robertson comes good next year. We've had seven successive seasons of pretty inconsistent AB performances. More than time to start producing the goods
I never knew that, I always remember Cullen emerging in Super Rugby. Would Mains have really picked him based on a season of second division Rugby ?
He exploded onto the HK 7s stage first didn't he? Along with another guy who was okay, Jonah someone...
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To reinforce my point. Mains wanted to choose Cully for his last NH tour but Tonks restricted him to 26 players so Cullen should have had a cap before Hart took over.
Then Hart chose Adrian Cashmore ahead of Oz and doubled down by ignoring the evidence that Osborne was the best option at 13 with his Goldie at 15 miracle call. Harts far from the worst AB coach but he'd have to be in the running for most poisonous and over-rated.
Anyway I really hope Robertson comes good next year. We've had seven successive seasons of pretty inconsistent AB performances. More than time to start producing the goods
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2025:
To reinforce my point. Mains wanted to choose Cully for his last NH tour but Tonks restricted him to 26 players so Cullen should have had a cap before Hart took over.
Then Hart chose Adrian Cashmore ahead of Oz and doubled down by ignoring the evidence that Osborne was the best option at 13 with his Goldie at 15 miracle call. Harts far from the worst AB coach but he'd have to be in the running for most poisonous and over-rated.
Anyway I really hope Robertson comes good next year. We've had seven successive seasons of pretty inconsistent AB performances. More than time to start producing the goods
We weren't inconsistent in 2023, we played well when it mattered, ABs whitewashed the Rugby Championship racking up huge margins. We were also the better side in the RWC final., the France loss can be excused as illness sweep through camp that week yet amazingly were still close in the end.
The qatar cup was a meaningless friendly after the RC finished which no one gave a stuff about and that was the only truly average performance.
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@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2025:
To reinforce my point. Mains wanted to choose Cully for his last NH tour but Tonks restricted him to 26 players so Cullen should have had a cap before Hart took over.
Then Hart chose Adrian Cashmore ahead of Oz and doubled down by ignoring the evidence that Osborne was the best option at 13 with his Goldie at 15 miracle call. Harts far from the worst AB coach but he'd have to be in the running for most poisonous and over-rated.
Anyway I really hope Robertson comes good next year. We've had seven successive seasons of pretty inconsistent AB performances. More than time to start producing the goods
I never knew that, I always remember Cullen emerging in Super Rugby. Would Mains have really picked him based on a season of second division Rugby ?
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2025:
To reinforce my point. Mains wanted to choose Cully for his last NH tour but Tonks restricted him to 26 players so Cullen should have had a cap before Hart took over.
Then Hart chose Adrian Cashmore ahead of Oz and doubled down by ignoring the evidence that Osborne was the best option at 13 with his Goldie at 15 miracle call. Harts far from the worst AB coach but he'd have to be in the running for most poisonous and over-rated.
Anyway I really hope Robertson comes good next year. We've had seven successive seasons of pretty inconsistent AB performances. More than time to start producing the goods
I never knew that, I always remember Cullen emerging in Super Rugby. Would Mains have really picked him based on a season of second division Rugby ?
I'm pretty sure we (the Fern, not necessarily you and I) discussed this pretty recently and I pointed out Osborne wasn't in great early season form. He came right by the EOTY to SA though.
Hmm, think I must have had this discussion on PR.
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster , mate I was just saying the idea that anyone doesn't select on merit is wrong. Not sure what they use , or saying they should or shouldn't use Super form.
I don't believe players are knowingly selected for sentimental reasons. I looked at people who rubbished why TJP and Cane were selected this season and said it was sentimental etc. I personally would of picked them both as I thought they were within the best for their positions when they picked. .I perhaps am not right, but I say that from what I think. I didn't agree with all AB selections, but tend to get proved wrong by players I not sure about anyway.I know what you are saying mate, and there is some truth in it. But two pieces of evidence suggest Razor is also a homer who doesn't pick players deserving based on SR form, those are Hoskins Sotutu (voted SR player of the year) and Fihaki, who could barely make the Crusaders squad. Not to mention his incessant fapping over the idea of being able to select Moounga now
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster , mate I was just saying the idea that anyone doesn't select on merit is wrong. Not sure what they use , or saying they should or shouldn't use Super form.
I don't believe players are knowingly selected for sentimental reasons. I looked at people who rubbished why TJP and Cane were selected this season and said it was sentimental etc. I personally would of picked them both as I thought they were within the best for their positions when they picked. .I perhaps am not right, but I say that from what I think. I didn't agree with all AB selections, but tend to get proved wrong by players I not sure about anyway.I know what you are saying mate, and there is some truth in it. But two pieces of evidence suggest Razor is also a homer who doesn't pick players deserving based on SR form, those are Hoskins Sotutu (voted SR player of the year) and Fihaki, who could barely make the Crusaders squad. Not to mention his incessant fapping over the idea of being able to select Moounga now
Yep well Sotutu surprised me not making it (assumed that was something historical in ABs with Jase Ryan?) and Fihaki just s=gobsmacked us all.
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As a bulked-up Sotutu works through the recovery process from knee surgery on November 1 (with a 12-week return to play, he’s expected back around season kickoff in ‘25), you ask if he’s been soured by his treatment from the national selectors.
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster , mate I was just saying the idea that anyone doesn't select on merit is wrong. Not sure what they use , or saying they should or shouldn't use Super form.
I don't believe players are knowingly selected for sentimental reasons. I looked at people who rubbished why TJP and Cane were selected this season and said it was sentimental etc. I personally would of picked them both as I thought they were within the best for their positions when they picked. .I perhaps am not right, but I say that from what I think. I didn't agree with all AB selections, but tend to get proved wrong by players I not sure about anyway.I know what you are saying mate, and there is some truth in it. But two pieces of evidence suggest Razor is also a homer who doesn't pick players deserving based on SR form, those are Hoskins Sotutu (voted SR player of the year) and Fihaki, who could barely make the Crusaders squad. Not to mention his incessant fapping over the idea of being able to select Moounga now
Yep well Sotutu surprised me not making it (assumed that was something historical in ABs with Jase Ryan?) and Fihaki just s=gobsmacked us all.
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:
something historical
So....not on merit?
No exactly what I saying they pick on merit (or what they think is merit) not on anything historical.
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@Bones Can these three and others from the Saders have breakout seasons and force their way into the Abs next year?
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Bones Can these three and others from the Saders have breakout seasons and force their way into the Abs next year?
With Razor as coach, easily. As long as we agree on a new definition of "force".
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As a bulked-up Sotutu works through the recovery process from knee surgery on November 1 (with a 12-week return to play, he’s expected back around season kickoff in ‘25), you ask if he’s been soured by his treatment from the national selectors.
@Tim said in All Blacks 2025:
As a bulked-up Sotutu works through the recovery process from knee surgery on November 1 (with a 12-week return to play, he’s expected back around season kickoff in ‘25), you ask if he’s been soured by his treatment from the national selectors.
Pretty good interview with him. open and honest.
I hope he plays the house down in super so he has to be picked.
