All Blacks 2025
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
Williams
Taylor
Lomax
Barrett
Vaai
6?
Savea
Sititi
Roigard
DMac
Clarke
JB
Proctor
Jordan
LoveOn the Breakdown Mils has Sititi at 6, Ardie at 7 and Lakai at 8. Would love to see it. The rest of that team is hard to argue with.
IMO we don’t need to physically match up to all teams, let’s just run them off their feet instead.
Running them off their feet will result in us getting some high scoring victories, and losing when we get dragged into the trenches. The French forwards when they got on a roll against us last year made it look far too easy to take us on up the guts.
Also I hate to break it to you, but in the 'run them off their feet' game plan, you'll probably be looking at Blackadder starting, not Lakai."Run them off their feet" means "we are uncharacteristically gassed early in the second half"
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
Williams
Taylor
Lomax
Barrett
Vaai
6?
Savea
Sititi
Roigard
DMac
Clarke
JB
Proctor
Jordan
LoveOn the Breakdown Mils has Sititi at 6, Ardie at 7 and Lakai at 8. Would love to see it. The rest of that team is hard to argue with.
IMO we don’t need to physically match up to all teams, let’s just run them off their feet instead.
Running them off their feet will result in us getting some high scoring victories, and losing when we get dragged into the trenches. The French forwards when they got on a roll against us last year made it look far too easy to take us on up the guts.
Also I hate to break it to you, but in the 'run them off their feet' game plan, you'll probably be looking at Blackadder starting, not Lakai.Blackadder's probably the last person you pick if you want to play that style of rugby.
How do you figure that? He certainly has his faults, but I'd be surprised if he didn't have the biggest motor and most involvements of all our loosies - that is why coaches love him, work rate. He's a volume defender and a volume ruck-hitter.
There are plenty of game plans where he shouldn't be near selection, but run them off their feet (which I'm not in favour of), he'd be right up there - for the 10 minutes he's fit.Blackadder shouldn't even be in the squad. If you want to run a team off their feet you need dynamic loosies which Blackadder clearly isn't. He might have a big motor, but he's well down the list of loosies in NZ that you want in the team from an attacking point of view. The times Blackadder has been on the field this year his tackling % has been horrible, including one notable attempt where he was run over by Kirifi. Not exactly the guy you want as a test 6 even though he'll likely feature because Razor is the coach.
If you want to run people off their feet, you pretty much by definition want the guys with the biggest motors, because they're the ones still standing when the opposition are run off their feet.
Not that I ever said Blackadders tackle accuracy was great - and it's changing the goalposts - but Ardie Savea just got run over by Samisoni - which doesn't mean he shouldn't be picked. Dalton's tackle accuracy is great. So too Withy. And Segner. You wouldn't pick those 3 and try to run teams off their feet?Your point is a little moot when the likes of Savea, Sititi and Lakai are all 80 min players, therefore the need for a guy with a big engine that is no threat with ball in hand is kind of pointless. A guy that is passive with ball in hand isn't exactly going to tire out the opposition is he?
My point about Blackadder's tackling is that he wasn't playing well enough to be an AB so the fact you keep harping on about him is kind of irrelevant when he's the type of player we don't need in the ABs. Been there, done that.
There's much better loosies we can use to run a international side of their feet, players that will actually tire out the opposition.
I don't think there is any question about Ardie's ability on defence, just ask the Blues.
You're probably throwing stones in glass houses there accusing other people of harping on about players mate.
You do still need players to get to a lot of rucks, not just ball runners, if you intend to run teams off their feet. Otherwise you're really just picking a league team / highlights reel players which isn't going to work at all.Anyway, it was just a throwaway 'be careful what you wish for' post, so whatever. I don't want to see the ABs adopt that approach, because I don't think it will work.
What makes you think those players can't do the job of a Blackadder? Sititi is the sort of player than can physically match up as a 6 and has the ability to go into dark places if needed as well.
If you're talking about hitting rucks...
In Ardie's case, more than a decade of watching him play. For all his brilliance, he's never been a ruck-hitter.
Lakai, maybe he can - but he hasn't really been so far. Not too bad, but e.g. Kirifi would hit more.
Sititi hits quite a few.If you're talking about defence...
Ardie same deal. Good defender, very accurate. Not a volume defender though, particularly when he's hanging off looking for turnovers.
Lakai, not bad - but nowhere near Blackadder or Dalton. Again Kirifi would make more.
Sititi - he certainly can be should circumstances dictate - see Super final last year.Blackadder can't run like those guys (and I'm not even advocating for his selection). But it is a bit ridiculous to insist he has no good things about him and anyone else could do what he does.
Blackadder just needs to focus on getting on the field, right now he isn't in the picture. Dalton has been a bit underwhelming for me but will likely be there in some capacity. All this discussion around selection is somewhat pointless because none of us know what type of game Razor has in mind.
In terms of running teams of 'their feet' of course we need to still be sensible about what team we put out if it starts becoming a shit fight. But the goal is to get back to where we were prior to 2017 in that if 'we are on', no one will be able to keep up. Personally, I'd like us to adapt a similar approach to what the Chiefs played on Saturday night, attacking the space and using our superior skillset to trouble teams who aren't as skillful. That's always been our point of difference, something we haven't seen for a number of years now.
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@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2025:
Razor/Ryan do like a worker in their loose trio and I think they'll be eyeing one of those 2 to be that guy who carries close to the ruck, cleans out rucks and racks up the tackles
Looks to me like what Parker was doing at 6 on the weekend for the Chiefs
He has the added bonus of being built like a test 6.
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I think Blackadder is way more in the picture than people realise. He's always been perpetually injured and hardly played any Super as a result, but despite that he started every single game at 6 he was fit for last season. I suspect they see him as their "high workrate" 6 to pair with Ardie and Sititi.
In summary, in amongst plenty of brilliance from Ardie and Sititi, I expect our loosies to get smacked around in their core roles all season again.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
I think Blackadder is way more in the picture than people realise. He's always been perpetually injured and hardly played any Super as a result, but despite that he started every single game at 6 he was fit for last season. I suspect they see him as their "high workrate" 6 to pair with Ardie and Sititi.
In summary, in amongst plenty of brilliance from Ardie and Sititi, I expect our loosies to get smacked around in their core roles all season again.
Most often the best combo is 1 worker, 1 bruiser, 1 player.
Our problem is we have 2 players (AS, WS) who are stone cold certainties - so if you select the worker (EB/DP/LJ) you've got no bruiser. If you select the bruiser (SF) you've got no worker.
I think last year we looked slightly better when trying to make up for the lack of bruiser by using Tosi/Tuipolotou etc, than we did trying to make up for the lack of worker.
Not sure what the solution is though. If you picked Holland you'd have a worker at lock, but I think it might be a year early for his body. -
@KiwiMurph Jacobson has played 25 tests and we won 21 of those. Three of those losses were against South Africa. He gets found out a bit at the very highest level, but he's very useful against most Test teams. He covers 6, 7 and 8. He can carry, his passing game is solid and he's a lineout option. Impact beats versatility, but versatility isn't to be totally sniffer at either.
I agree he's behind Lakai now in the pecking order, but for me he's better suited to Test Rugby than Ethan Blackadder or Du'Plessis Kirifi.
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I for once would just like to see the AB's picked on form, though the last time that was done appears to be fading from my memory. And there's that nagging fear that every 50/50 call will go the way of a Cusaders player as that's who Razor has worked with. Time will tell...
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The AB midfield is a bizzare conumdrum.
Almost everyone seems to flood the midfield which results in RI getting the ball and then man pretty much all the time. Neither RI or JB are particulary gifted "put the man into space" passers of the ball so it often just dies in the midfield. RI has no kicking game but his pace does save our blushes on defence considerably.
Given that's the "pattern" on attack you would think we'd go for a big bruiser at centre that can take the ball and the man and have go-forward but we've either not developed or found anyone to do that role.
It's an odd case of apparently the AB coach's giving up hope on using the midfield as an attacking weapon and simply picking a player that does the best defensive role as we can't get the ball through the midfield, or to the wingers via smooth distribution and there's no-one else who can do a better job.
We saw last year the advent of the wrappity, wrap, wrap with DMac recieving backdoor passes x2 to try and get the ball to the wings with a gameplan that seemed to exhaust the forward pack and leave us with nothing in the tank for the last 20 minutes...
In short, it seems the AB midfield is a dead-zone and the centre is picked mainly on their defensive ability.
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@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
@KiwiMurph Jacobson has played 25 tests and we won 21 of those. Three of those were against South Africa. He gets found out a bit at the very highest level, but he's very useful against most Test teams.
When you say 3 of those you mean 3 of the losses came against South Africa
His 4 losses come against Boks (3) and France (1)
I dispute the opinion that he is a 'great' bench option.
We need to find ways to improve the 23 - one of those is more impact from our bench loosie
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
Blackadder just needs to focus on getting on the field, right now he isn't in the picture.
As the saying goes, the best ability is availability.
Robertson's use of the bench, and his substitutions, were poor last season. Often he was reluctant to go to the bench early, and got lucky in the game against England (with the BB concussion, allowing Telea to return).
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Sparky's squad
Props: Tamati Williams, Ethan De Groot, Ollie Norris, Tyrell Lomax, Fletcher Newell, Pasilio Tosi
Hookers: Codie Taylor, Sami Taukei'aho, Asafo Aumua
Locks: Scott Barrett (c), Tupou Vaa'i, Patrick Tuipolutu, Fabian Holland, Sam Darry
Back Row: Simon Parker, Ardie Savea, Wallace Sititi, Dalton Papali'i, Peter Lakai, Luke Jacobson
Half Backs: Cortez Ratima, Cam Roigard, Noah Hotham
First Fives: Damien McKenzie, Ruben Love, Beauden Barrett
Midfield: Jordie Barrett, Quinn Tupaea, Billy Proctor, Timoci Tavatavanawai
Back Three : Caleb Clarke, Sevu Reece, Will Jordan, Leroy Carter, Caleb Tangitau
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@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
Sparky's squad
Props: Tamati Williams, Ethan De Groot, Ollie Norris, Tyrell Lomax, Fletcher Newell, Pasilio Tosi
Hookers: Codie Taylor, Sami Taukei'aho, Asafo Aumua
Locks: Scott Barrett (c), Tupou Vaa'i, Patrick Tuipolutu, Fabian Holland, Sam Darry
Back Row: Simon Parker, Ardie Savea, Wallace Sititi, Dalton Papali'i, Peter Lakai, Luke Jacobson
Half Backs: Cortez Ratima, Cam Roigard, Noah Hotham
First Fives: Damien McKenzie, Ruben Love, Beauden Barrett
Midfield: Jordie Barrett, Quinn Tupaea, Billy Proctor, Timoci Tavatavanawai
Back Three : Caleb Clarke, Sevu Reece, Will Jordan, Leroy Carter, Caleb Tangitau
Solid squad, a couple of iterations from my POV.
- Reiko will be there covering centre and wing.
- I can't see David Havili missing out, Tim might be the one that moves aside.
- Out of the loosies, I think it's a shootout between Papali'i, Kirifi and Blackadder for that 6th loosie spot.
- No Caleb Tangitau because of injury. Emoni Narawa will likely be there.
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@Canes4life How long is Caleb Tangitau out for? Is he still going to be unavailable in July? I agree that Narawa would be the next option on the wing.
In terms of the loosies, it is two from Jacobson, Papali'i, Kirifi, Blackadder and Sotutu. I like Jacobson and Papali'i's calmness in high-pressure situations.
David Havili and Reiko Ioane have these last few games to show what they can do. But neither seems to offer any more as much as other available options.
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@Canes4life Dalton will definitely be in the loose forwards,
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@george33 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life Dalton will definitely be in the loose forwards,
He’s not a certainty, unless you know something everyone else doesn’t.
Blackadder, Jacobsen and Papali’i are all like for like. I’d pick Jacobsen out of the three.
Certainties for me are:
- Savea
- Sititi
Probables are:
- Finau
- Lakai
- Jacobsen
Possibles are:
- Parker
- Blackadder
- Papali’i
- Kirifi
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So, wing.
Clark is a lock in 11, he was very good last year.
When was the last time Rieko played there? I don't think he's an option.
Reece and Narawa are similar for me - both relatively small and not extreme pace, with good skills and atypical winger strengths e.g. pick and go. I don't reckon those skills transfer to the test arena as well. Narawa/Reece are far less likely to burrow over in tight games we really want to win, regardless of how many times they do it at Super level.
I'm gutted Tangitau is injured, he was playing the house down and looked like just the player you want if Jordan is to play 15.
Carter has some good skills and reasonable pace / good acceleration, and the halfback/wing combo has some great potential re the bench, but high ball, defense, positional play I haven't seen enough yet. -
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@george33 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life Dalton will definitely be in the loose forwards,
He’s not a certainty, unless you know something everyone else doesn’t.
Blackadder, Jacobsen and Papali’i are all like for like. I’d pick Jacobsen out of the three.
Certainties for me are:
- Savea
- Sititi
Probables are:
- Finau
- Lakai
- Jacobsen
Possibles are:
- Parker
- Blackadder
- Papali’i
- Kirifi
I'd agree with this list overall. It's a shame that both certainties are X factor types and no grafters/bruisers are playing the house down and demanding to be picked.
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I think Lakai is a very good bench option.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
So, wing.
Clark is a lock in 11, he was very good last year.
When was the last time Rieko played there? I don't think he's an option.
Reece and Narawa are similar for me - both relatively small and not extreme pace, with good skills and atypical winger strengths e.g. pick and go. I don't reckon those skills transfer to the test arena as well. Narawa/Reece are far less likely to burrow over in tight games we really want to win, regardless of how many times they do it at Super level.
I'm gutted Tangitau is injured, he was playing the house down and looked like just the player you want if Jordan is to play 15.
Carter has some good skills and reasonable pace / good acceleration, and the halfback/wing combo has some great potential re the bench, but high ball, defense, positional play I haven't seen enough yet.Rieko's been our incumbent centre for the past four years. He hasn't suddenly lost all his pace - they'll pick him at centre and back themselves to coach him back into form. Proctor is possibly the most serious contender he's faced, though - so it will be interesting to see how that duel plays out over the international season. I fully expect Rieko to be the starting 13 for France 1. I'll be extremely surprised if he appears at wing and certainly if he appears as a starting wing.
They clearly want Will to be their fullback, so he won't be starting there either, unless there's an injury crisis. They might shift him there for the last 20 minutes to accommodate Beaudy/DMac/Love.
I think Clarke and Reece are locked in with Teleá moving on. Then probably one more wing. Tangitau looked the business early on. Carter is eye-catching, but I haven't watched him closely. Narawa in the frame. But, I'm sort of thinking AJ Lam. Saw Razor saying something along the lines that they're not discounting 6-2 benches and AJ becomes a valuable commodity in those circumstances.
Edit: Sevu's got 18 test tries from 32 tests - a reasonable strike rate, but the AB database no longer readily tells me who he scored against and neither does that lazy slackarse ChatGPT - who tells me a "breakdown isn't readily available" and I could consult the AB database. Presumably it's now fucked off to the pub with the other interns!
I reckon Narawa's taller and probably a bit heavier than Sevu - possibly quicker as well - but there was evidently something that didn't appeal last year.
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
Blackadder just needs to focus on getting on the field, right now he isn't in the picture.
As the saying goes, the best ability is availability.
Robertson's use of the bench, and his substitutions, were poor last season. Often he was reluctant to go to the bench early, and got lucky in the game against England (with the BB concussion, allowing Telea to return).
Rassie plays chess, Razor is currently playing checkers
