All Blacks 2025
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
@antipodean I'd also argue that in response to that trio and their dominance World Rugby has let more players lie on the ground more, let fame hungry referees interfere in the game more and slowed the pace of the game down to a snail's pace. Sides with giant back rows, France, Ireland and most of all South Africa have profited.
WR appear to have little interest in making the game more dynamic. They prefer an NFL style setpiece game. Until we beat them at their own game they won't be in any hurry to change
Precisely. We need to be ruthlessly effective at our carry cleans, dominating set piece that WR in response to the bleating of other teams and their fans change the rules to nullify us - yet again.
Playing with small athletic backrows is not a solution.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
@antipodean I'd also argue that in response to that trio and their dominance World Rugby has let more players lie on the ground more, let fame hungry referees interfere in the game more and slowed the pace of the game down to a snail's pace. Sides with giant back rows, France, Ireland and most of all South Africa have profited.
WR appear to have little interest in making the game more dynamic. They prefer an NFL style setpiece game. Until we beat them at their own game they won't be in any hurry to change
Precisely. We need to be ruthlessly effective at our carry cleans, dominating set piece that WR in response to the bleating of other teams and their fans change the rules to nullify us - yet again.
Playing with small athletic backrows is not a solution.
Razor has yet to demonstrate if he has the necessary pragmatism and ability to evolve, or if he is a one trick pony with no tactical plan B
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@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
@antipodean I'd also argue that in response to that trio and their dominance World Rugby has let more players lie on the ground more, let fame hungry referees interfere in the game more and slowed the pace of the game down to a snail's pace. Sides with giant back rows, France, Ireland and most of all South Africa have profited.
WR appear to have little interest in making the game more dynamic. They prefer an NFL style setpiece game. Until we beat them at their own game they won't be in any hurry to change
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
@antipodean I'd also argue that in response to that trio and their dominance World Rugby has let more players lie on the ground more, let fame hungry referees interfere in the game more and slowed the pace of the game down to a snail's pace. Sides with giant back rows, France, Ireland and most of all South Africa have profited.
WR appear to have little interest in making the game more dynamic. They prefer an NFL style setpiece game. Until we beat them at their own game they won't be in any hurry to change
As far as I'm aware, World Rugby are very willing partners in (/behind) many of the changes we've seen at Super Rugby level. Super Rugby as a competition is much more open to trialling things, which is why most changes tend to come through the south first as a 'proof of concept' before the north can be convinced. It's the old unions that are often against the changes, not WR.
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@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B I saw him play against Glasgow Warriors in December and Leicester was the Man of the Match. He's a similar sort of player to Braydon Ennor these days.
Does Ennor exist as a serious option in anyone's minds other than our red and black homer posters?
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B I saw him play against Glasgow Warriors in December and Leicester was the Man of the Match. He's a similar sort of player to Braydon Ennor these days.
Does Ennor exist as a serious option in anyone's minds other than our red and black homer posters?
He's looked good at times but he seems to be injured as much if not more than Glassadder. He looked pretty average against the Chiefs a few weeks ago.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
Williams
Taylor
Lomax
Barrett
Vaai
6?
Savea
Sititi
Roigard
DMac
Clarke
JB
Proctor
Jordan
LoveOn the Breakdown Mils has Sititi at 6, Ardie at 7 and Lakai at 8. Would love to see it. The rest of that team is hard to argue with.
IMO we don’t need to physically match up to all teams, let’s just run them off their feet instead.
Running them off their feet will result in us getting some high scoring victories, and losing when we get dragged into the trenches. The French forwards when they got on a roll against us last year made it look far too easy to take us on up the guts.
Also I hate to break it to you, but in the 'run them off their feet' game plan, you'll probably be looking at Blackadder starting, not Lakai."Run them off their feet" means "we are uncharacteristically gassed early in the second half"
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
Williams
Taylor
Lomax
Barrett
Vaai
6?
Savea
Sititi
Roigard
DMac
Clarke
JB
Proctor
Jordan
LoveOn the Breakdown Mils has Sititi at 6, Ardie at 7 and Lakai at 8. Would love to see it. The rest of that team is hard to argue with.
IMO we don’t need to physically match up to all teams, let’s just run them off their feet instead.
Running them off their feet will result in us getting some high scoring victories, and losing when we get dragged into the trenches. The French forwards when they got on a roll against us last year made it look far too easy to take us on up the guts.
Also I hate to break it to you, but in the 'run them off their feet' game plan, you'll probably be looking at Blackadder starting, not Lakai."Run them off their feet" means "we are uncharacteristically gassed early in the second half"
We have a forward pack that can take on any side so i think the best approach is too vary our game, up the middle, kicking, pick n go, out wide,
We need to stress defences and be less predictable.
The easiest attack to defend against is the one that is predictable
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The settled nature of this relatively strong AB side means Razor should throw caution to the wind and try the form options at 6, 13, wings and 15.
It would be crazy if guys like Parker, Lakai, ,Love and Proctor don't get a good run. -
@Chris-B since when is Frizell returning to NZ Rugby? Isn't he loving life over in Japan with Richie and Rob Thompson
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@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B I saw him play against Glasgow Warriors in December and Leicester was the Man of the Match. He's a similar sort of player to Braydon Ennor these days.
Does Ennor exist as a serious option in anyone's minds other than our red and black homer posters?
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B I saw him play against Glasgow Warriors in December and Leicester was the Man of the Match. He's a similar sort of player to Braydon Ennor these days.
Does Ennor exist as a serious option in anyone's minds other than our red and black homer posters?
Yep, absolutely. Foster, Hansen etc, and me too.
He's big, strong, fast, reads the game well, has good hands and runs onto the ball at pace. He's been injured a shitload but every time he isn't, he has been in contention. Kinda like Richard Kahui. -
The settled nature of this relatively strong AB side means Razor should throw caution to the wind and try the form options at 6, 13, wings and 15.
It would be crazy if guys like Parker, Lakai, ,Love and Proctor don't get a good run.@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
The settled nature of this relatively strong AB side means Razor should throw caution to the wind and try the form options at 6, 13, wings and 15.
It would be crazy if guys like Parker, Lakai, ,Love and Proctor don't get a good run.Parker maybe, though it's not exactly a huge body of work and it is while being part of the best team in the comp.
Lakai isn't playing 6.
Love isn't playing 15.
Proctor definitely.(though I do agree with the general sentiment)
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@sparky Haven't seen him at all since he left - actually, I've seen a few youtube highlights.
But, he's big - and fast for a centre, or he was when he left. Reports are promising, but I doubt he'll make the first AB squad.
I'd be pretty surprised if Razor hasn't been watching him a lot more closely than me, though.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@sparky Haven't seen him at all since he left - actually, I've seen a few youtube highlights.
But, he's big - and fast for a centre, or he was when he left. Reports are promising, but I doubt he'll make the first AB squad.
I'd be pretty surprised if Razor hasn't been watching him a lot more closely than me, though.
I remember razor in an interview before he left , before he had officially taken over the ab reigns ,
Expressing how disappointed he was that he was leaving , the thing that stood out was him talking about his skill set being suited to the midfield even though he was mainly playing wing then .
He said something like he has the potential to be a nonu or an umaga .
If he is rushed in , I think it sends the wrong message to guys like proctor who have stayed loyal, played well and being given few opportunities.
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
The settled nature of this relatively strong AB side means Razor should throw caution to the wind and try the form options at 6, 13, wings and 15.
It would be crazy if guys like Parker, Lakai, ,Love and Proctor don't get a good run.Parker maybe, though it's not exactly a huge body of work and it is while being part of the best team in the comp.
Lakai isn't playing 6.
Love isn't playing 15.
Proctor definitely.(though I do agree with the general sentiment)
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
The settled nature of this relatively strong AB side means Razor should throw caution to the wind and try the form options at 6, 13, wings and 15.
It would be crazy if guys like Parker, Lakai, ,Love and Proctor don't get a good run.Parker maybe, though it's not exactly a huge body of work and it is while being part of the best team in the comp.
Lakai isn't playing 6.
Love isn't playing 15.
Proctor definitely.(though I do agree with the general sentiment)
Why wouldn’t Love play 15? I wouldn’t be surprised if they tried 11. Clarke 14. Jordan and 15. Love at some stage this year.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
The settled nature of this relatively strong AB side means Razor should throw caution to the wind and try the form options at 6, 13, wings and 15.
It would be crazy if guys like Parker, Lakai, ,Love and Proctor don't get a good run.Parker maybe, though it's not exactly a huge body of work and it is while being part of the best team in the comp.
Lakai isn't playing 6.
Love isn't playing 15.
Proctor definitely.(though I do agree with the general sentiment)
Why wouldn’t Love play 15? I wouldn’t be surprised if they tried 11. Clarke 14. Jordan and 15. Love at some stage this year.
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For all this talk about loose forwards, people seem to be either ignorant or forgetful about our best loose forward trio in modern times. Kaino, McCaw and Read. From 2010–2015 they were just on another level culminating in two RWC wins, an undefeated season, and they bossed almost every Test they played.
How did they achieve this? With balance across the park but not just covering the others' "weakness". The GOAT was a tireless tackler, hit rucks disrupting and slowing down opposition ball he couldn't thieve. Kaino set the tone physically, but also had underrated hands and footwork - he wasn't just a battering ram. And Read possessed a great skillset, awesome in support, and could absolutely smoke blokes in defence when needed.
Between the three of them they stood 5.76 metres tall.
People attempting to argue we should run out loose forward trios with no players taller than the shortest of the above are on the far left of the bell curve.
It's Test rugby and we need to identify players that have the attributes to play effectively at that level, not audition for a SR barbarians game highlight reel.
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2025:
For all this talk about loose forwards, people seem to be either ignorant or forgetful about our best loose forward trio in modern times. Kaino, McCaw and Read. From 2010–2015 they were just on another level culminating in two RWC wins, an undefeated season, and they bossed almost every Test they played.
How did they achieve this? With balance across the park but not just covering the others' "weakness". The GOAT was a tireless tackler, hit rucks disrupting and slowing down opposition ball he couldn't thieve. Kaino set the tone physically, but also had underrated hands and footwork - he wasn't just a battering ram. And Read possessed a great skillset, awesome in support, and could absolutely smoke blokes in defence when needed.
Between the three of them they stood 5.76 metres tall.
People attempting to argue we should run out loose forward trios with no players taller than the shortest of the above are on the far left of the bell curve.
It's Test rugby and we need to identify players that have the attributes to play effectively at that level, not audition for a SR barbarians game highlight reel.
You're right re size.
There is a bit of a trap there though, in that we don't have clones of those greats, and you end up trying to shoehorn blokes with different talents into roles which don't suit them. It's important to remember that there are different ways to play the game and the game is played with the players you've got, not the players you wish you had.
Which one of those 3 is Ardie? He doesn't make the number of tackles or hit anywhere near the rucks of McCaw.
We have a couple of guys who are Kaino-like in Finau and Parker, but are not near as good at this stage - and also not as good as other contenders who don't play like Kaino - and they won't be playing alongside McCaw and Read.
Who do we have who plays like Read? A first rate lineout forward who can run and handle with the backs and also smash blokes.These guys, while greats, weren't perfect either. McCaw was not a great ball runner and did not have great hands. Read was not a workrate player, he was a high impact player. And they had our best ever locking combo in front of them.
As much as people on here will hate it, I think the option might be stack the tight forwards with power players Samisoni, Tosi, Tuipolotou, and add a workrate loosie in EB/LJ/DP to the Savea/Sititi combo.
The other way would be to go workrate tighties: Newell, Taylor, Holland, with Finau/Parker.
The third way would be to go fuck it, we're going to play to our strengths - stay with us if you can - and pick Savea/Sititi/Sotutu with the workrate tighties to start and the impact ones on the bench. There's no team who could match that trio in skill-set. I'd love to see it, but Razor seems pretty conservative to me though, so it'll probably be some shitty halfway house between the first two. -
@Canes4life Why would Love play ahead of Jordan at 15? I would think that it should be the other way round. The only way I see Jordan at 14 is with Barret at 15
@chucknz said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life Why would Love play ahead of Jordan at 15? I would think that it should be the other way round. The only way I see Jordan at 14 is with Barret at 15
Jordan has a proven track record as a right winger at test level. He's arguably played better there than he does at 15. We've been there and done that with Barrett at 15, why not play Love who's one of the form players in the comp. Barrett is only getting older and personally I'd rather someone at the back that doesn't kick the ball away all game.
I'm not saying they will go with this combo to start with, I'm just saying we might see this combo at some stage in the season.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
The settled nature of this relatively strong AB side means Razor should throw caution to the wind and try the form options at 6, 13, wings and 15.
It would be crazy if guys like Parker, Lakai, ,Love and Proctor don't get a good run.Parker maybe, though it's not exactly a huge body of work and it is while being part of the best team in the comp.
Lakai isn't playing 6.
Love isn't playing 15.
Proctor definitely.(though I do agree with the general sentiment)
Why wouldn’t Love play 15? I wouldn’t be surprised if they tried 11. Clarke 14. Jordan and 15. Love at some stage this year.
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
The settled nature of this relatively strong AB side means Razor should throw caution to the wind and try the form options at 6, 13, wings and 15.
It would be crazy if guys like Parker, Lakai, ,Love and Proctor don't get a good run.Parker maybe, though it's not exactly a huge body of work and it is while being part of the best team in the comp.
Lakai isn't playing 6.
Love isn't playing 15.
Proctor definitely.(though I do agree with the general sentiment)
Why wouldn’t Love play 15? I wouldn’t be surprised if they tried 11. Clarke 14. Jordan and 15. Love at some stage this year.
I think he's been better at 10 than 15, and he seems ensconced there now for the Canes - which I think is a very good thing. If we want 10s to develop fast, they need to play 10 and anything else is a distraction. He's kinda the 10 vs 15 opposite of Beauden for me. A very good footy player, but not a good fit for 15.
I'd rather have him in the squad as a 10 for development, and give him an easy game or two in that position with the majority of the A team. -
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
The settled nature of this relatively strong AB side means Razor should throw caution to the wind and try the form options at 6, 13, wings and 15.
It would be crazy if guys like Parker, Lakai, ,Love and Proctor don't get a good run.Parker maybe, though it's not exactly a huge body of work and it is while being part of the best team in the comp.
Lakai isn't playing 6.
Love isn't playing 15.
Proctor definitely.(though I do agree with the general sentiment)
Why wouldn’t Love play 15? I wouldn’t be surprised if they tried 11. Clarke 14. Jordan and 15. Love at some stage this year.
I think he's been better at 10 than 15, and he seems ensconced there now for the Canes - which I think is a very good thing. If we want 10s to develop fast, they need to play 10 and anything else is a distraction. He's kinda the 10 vs 15 opposite of Beauden for me. A very good footy player, but not a good fit for 15.
I'd rather have him in the squad as a 10 for development, and give him an easy game or two in that position with the majority of the A team.@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
The settled nature of this relatively strong AB side means Razor should throw caution to the wind and try the form options at 6, 13, wings and 15.
It would be crazy if guys like Parker, Lakai, ,Love and Proctor don't get a good run.Parker maybe, though it's not exactly a huge body of work and it is while being part of the best team in the comp.
Lakai isn't playing 6.
Love isn't playing 15.
Proctor definitely.(though I do agree with the general sentiment)
Why wouldn’t Love play 15? I wouldn’t be surprised if they tried 11. Clarke 14. Jordan and 15. Love at some stage this year.
I think he's been better at 10 than 15, and he seems ensconced there now for the Canes - which I think is a very good thing. If we want 10s to develop fast, they need to play 10 and anything else is a distraction. He's kinda the 10 vs 15 opposite of Beauden for me. A very good footy player, but not a good fit for 15.
I'd rather have him in the squad as a 10 for development, and give him an easy game or two in that position with the majority of the A team.I wouldn't mind seeing Love on the bench over Barrett for most of the tests this year. That way he can come on at either 10 or 15 late in the game and slowly get used to the rigors of test rugby in smaller increments. In saying that, it would be cool to see him get a run at 10, knowing that the ABs need to build depth in the most important position.
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Would be pretty happy with this team for the first test against France.
- Williams
- Taylor
- Lomax
- Barrett
- Va'ai
- Parker
- Savea
- Sititi
- Roigard
- McKenzie
- Clarke
- Barrett
- Proctor
- Reece
- Jordan
- Taukei'aho
- De Groot
- Tosi
- Holland
- Lakai
- Ratima
- Love
- Tupaea
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Would be pretty happy with this team for the first test against France.
- Williams
- Taylor
- Lomax
- Barrett
- Va'ai
- Parker
- Savea
- Sititi
- Roigard
- McKenzie
- Clarke
- Barrett
- Proctor
- Reece
- Jordan
- Taukei'aho
- De Groot
- Tosi
- Holland
- Lakai
- Ratima
- Love
- Tupaea
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
Would be pretty happy with this team for the first test against France.
- Williams
- Taylor
- Lomax
- Barrett
- Va'ai
- Parker
- Savea
- Sititi
- Roigard
- McKenzie
- Clarke
- Barrett
- Proctor
- Reece
- Jordan
- Taukei'aho
- De Groot
- Tosi
- Holland
- Lakai
- Ratima
- Love
- Tupaea
Good looking team all up.
Haven't watched a hell of a lot of Super Rugby this year but is Reece really the best on offer ? I joked about his lack of pace last year, has he gotten quicker this season ?
Parker looks the goods from what I've seen ( admittedly fuck all ) probably able to provide more grunt than Papalii, Jacobsen or Blackadder who I note don't make your 23 ( I'm sure one or two will actually get selected by Razor )
I want Tupaea to provide a serious challenge to Jordie, hope he gets some opportunities.
The only surprise is that you picked Proctor over Ioane, no one who reads your posts would have seen that coming
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
Would be pretty happy with this team for the first test against France.
- Williams
- Taylor
- Lomax
- Barrett
- Va'ai
- Parker
- Savea
- Sititi
- Roigard
- McKenzie
- Clarke
- Barrett
- Proctor
- Reece
- Jordan
- Taukei'aho
- De Groot
- Tosi
- Holland
- Lakai
- Ratima
- Love
- Tupaea
Good looking team all up.
Haven't watched a hell of a lot of Super Rugby this year but is Reece really the best on offer ? I joked about his lack of pace last year, has he gotten quicker this season ?
Parker looks the goods from what I've seen ( admittedly fuck all ) probably able to provide more grunt than Papalii, Jacobsen or Blackadder who I note don't make your 23 ( I'm sure one or two will actually get selected by Razor )
I want Tupaea to provide a serious challenge to Jordie, hope he gets some opportunities.
The only surprise is that you picked Proctor over Ioane, no one who reads your posts would have seen that coming
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2025:
Would be pretty happy with this team for the first test against France.
- Williams
- Taylor
- Lomax
- Barrett
- Va'ai
- Parker
- Savea
- Sititi
- Roigard
- McKenzie
- Clarke
- Barrett
- Proctor
- Reece
- Jordan
- Taukei'aho
- De Groot
- Tosi
- Holland
- Lakai
- Ratima
- Love
- Tupaea
Good looking team all up.
Haven't watched a hell of a lot of Super Rugby this year but is Reece really the best on offer ? I joked about his lack of pace last year, has he gotten quicker this season ?
Parker looks the goods from what I've seen ( admittedly fuck all ) probably able to provide more grunt than Papalii, Jacobsen or Blackadder who I note don't make your 23 ( I'm sure one or two will actually get selected by Razor )
I want Tupaea to provide a serious challenge to Jordie, hope he gets some opportunities.
The only surprise is that you picked Proctor over Ioane, no one who reads your posts would have seen that coming
Reece is the best right wing option we have available IMO. Narawa hasn't hit top form yet, Fihaki could be in the frame because he's a Cantab, Tele'a is heading overseas and Tangitau is injured. Not many options really.
Yep, Proctor is a lock at centre for me. Ioane has had four years of opportunity in the 13 jersey and hasn't developed into the player many saw him being, time to move on. Proctor is obviously a Hurricane, but I'm sure many on here agree to the fact that he deserves an opportunity over a player that hasn't performed to a high standard for almost two years now.
I see both Stuff and the NZ Herald have articles on Billy Proctor today, the drums are definitely beating.
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Would be pretty happy with this team for the first test against France.
- Williams
- Taylor
- Lomax
- Barrett
- Va'ai
- Parker
- Savea
- Sititi
- Roigard
- McKenzie
- Clarke
- Barrett
- Proctor
- Reece
- Jordan
- Taukei'aho
- De Groot
- Tosi
- Holland
- Lakai
- Ratima
- Love
- Tupaea
@Canes4life It's a good side. Personally I would swap the halfbacks. Ratima has the cleaner pass, whereas Roigard is a running threat and a stronger kicker - both of which I see as more beneficial to us late in the game: more running opportunities open up, and Roigard's kicking can take some pressure off a tiring McKenzie to do everything. Even more so due to combinations if they go for Love over Barrett.
I think swapping the hookers is also worth looking at for similar reasons: grunt early, most accurate throwing late.
