AB Blindside - past, present & future
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I cant be bothered checking the team sheets for this, as @Bovidae probably remembers off the top of his head. Has Parker started at 7 this year? I wonder if some of his greater involvement per minute just reflects him spending more time playing in the middle at 7 (arguably a great thing that he has this versatility).
@gt12 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
I cant be bothered checking the team sheets for this, as @Bovidae probably remembers off the top of his head. Has Parker started at 7 this year? I wonder if some of his greater involvement per minute just reflects him spending more time playing in the middle at 7 (arguably a great thing that he has this versatility).
Not this year.
He had a few games at 7 last season but he's been exclusively used at 6 and 8 in 2023.
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In terms of Parker I saw him as a potential AB last year however I do think that if Blackadder is fit he is likely to be in the squad as the starting 6 with Savea at 7 and Sititi at 8. Jason Ryan loves him some Blackadder and I can't see him looking past him. Personally I'd like to see someone like Parker in the squad over Blackadder but I'll be shocked if it happens.
Haig hasn't had a lot of game time this year. I do think there is a place for Finau and Parker in the squad.
I don't see Razor and co going for a tight 6 under their game plan. They picked Blackadder, Finau, and Sititi as starters last year. They're looking for mobile guys.
In terms of workrate Finau, Parker and Haig are very much alike compared to Blackadder. Finau is highly effective at attacking rucks and Parker in defensive rucks. With regards to Blackadder the coaches seem to be more interested in volume as opposed to actual impact. He's always been a high volume low impact guy.
Contact Involvements per 80 Minutes Loose Forwards ( Carries + Tackles + Rucks )
69.25 Ethan Blackadder
61.62 Corey Kellow
61.0 Tom Christie
58.87 Dalton Papali'i
58.51 Du'Plessis Kirifi
58.41 Sean Withy
56.02 Jahrome Brown
54.84 Peter Lakai
53.63 Ardie Savea
52.35 Vaiolini Ekuasi
52.17 Luke Jacobson
50.6 Cullen Grace
48.87 Christian Lio-Willie
48.33 Brayden Iose
47.89 Kaylum Boshier
47.36 Hugh Renton
45.14 Hoskins Sotutu
44.21 Simon Parker
42.27 Oliver Haig
39.32 Samipeni FinauTop 20 Loose Forward Players by Rucks Per 80 minutes
35.24 Dalton Papali'i
35.19 Ethan Blackadder
33.57 Sean Withy
31.78 Corey Kellow
31.4 Du'Plessis Kirifi
29.68 Tom Christie
29.13 Jahrome Brown
27.87 Ardie Savea
26.91 Luke Jacobson
25.77 Peter Lakai
25.44 Kaylum Boshier
23.85 Cullen Grace
23.35 Simon Parker
22.39 Vaiolini Ekuasi
21.74 Oliver Haig
20.72 Christian Lio-Willie
20.28 Samipeni Finau
20.0 Brayden Iose
19.95 Hoskins Sotutu
16.75 Hugh RentonTop 20 Loose Forward Players by Attacking Ruck Effectiveness
91.8% Samipeni Finau
91.3% Tom Christie
90.2% Dalton Papali'i
90.2% Vaiolini Ekuasi
88.1% Ardie Savea
87.8% Peter Lakai
87.6% Jahrome Brown
86.9% Christian Lio-Willie
85.9% Hoskins Sotutu
85.9% Du'Plessis Kirifi
85.2% Brayden Iose
85.1% Luke Jacobson
85.0% Sean Withy
84.5% Corey Kellow
84.5% Oliver Haig
83.1% Simon Parker
82.6% Hugh Renton
81.9% Cullen Grace
81.5% Ethan Blackadder
77.3% Kaylum BoshierTop 20 Loose Forward Players by Defensive Ruck Effectiveness
29.6% Simon Parker
23.9% Luke Jacobson
23.1% Kaylum Boshier
22.4% Du'Plessis Kirifi
21.9% Samipeni Finau
20.1% Ardie Savea
17.6% Cullen Grace
17.3% Dalton Papali'i
16.1% Tom Christie
15.2% Jahrome Brown
14.8% Christian Lio-Willie
14.7% Sean Withy
13.1% Peter Lakai
12.1% Hoskins Sotutu
12.0% Corey Kellow
11.8% Vaiolini Ekuasi
9.1% Brayden Iose
8.3% Hugh Renton
7.4% Ethan Blackadder
0.0% Oliver HaigTop 20 Loose Forward Players by Dominant Tackle %
16.5% Simon Parker
11.5% Samipeni Finau
8.0% Hugh Renton
7.9% Ardie Savea
7.1% Brayden Iose
6.2% Christian Lio-Willie
6.0% Ethan Blackadder
5.8% Hoskins Sotutu
5.5% Peter Lakai
5.3% Sean Withy
4.4% Kaylum Boshier
4.4% Corey Kellow
4.3% Du'Plessis Kirifi
4.2% Luke Jacobson
3.5% Jahrome Brown
3.4% Cullen Grace
3.3% Tom Christie
3.3% Dalton Papali'i
2.0% Oliver Haig
0.0% Vaiolini EkuasiStats from Opta theanalyst.
@brodean said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Jason Ryan loves him some Blackadder and I can't see him looking past him.
If he loved him wouldn't he give him some months to recover?
Has Blackladder lasted 6 or even 4 weeks this season without injury? -
I thought Blackadder played really well last night, against more than decent opposition. But looking at his game - close to source, lots of involvements, tackling around the waist rather than up high - I'm always wondering whether his game isn't best suited to 7.
But then you have another issue, which is that he isn't particularly fast or dynamic around the ruck. Now Sam Cane was pretty similar, especially in his later years, but we also saw that he was actively targeted in this sense last season, with attackers running strike moves to isolate and pass him by. So it would probably be the same for Blackadder.
To me, there's growing clarity around the loose forward roles in Super Rugby and this, I think, should translate to AB selection. You have opensides who are very mobile, excel at the breakdown and who have an active but loose role on attack as a carry and link player (Savea, Kirifi, Lasaqa). Then you have number 8s who are high-volume carriers and are able to physically impose their carry game through the middle of the field (Sititi, Lakai, Sotutu and Lio-Willie).
That just leaves blindside, which is probably still the most varied position amongst the NZ SR sides. Players like Finau, Parker, Flanders, Shields, Iose, Choat, Segner, Howden, Withy, Grace, and Blackadder have all played there, which is a mix of mostly opensides and number 8s.
I think the AB selection this year should really try to cement their vision on what they want from a blindside, with openside and number 8 becoming relatively straightforward, in my view. It’s a chance to bed in the loose forward-selection for the next few seasons, at least, which should really help the team.
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But is Wallace actually the best 6? Arguably he was the best 6 for the ABs over the last season. So even if he is better at 8 perhaps they might still play him at 6. Unlikely though unless they don't want to move Savea.
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I’m yet to clear my mind of the thinking that Finau is a bit of a flat track bully. But he has the ingredients for sure.
NZ Rugby currently having trouble finding big bodies - we don’t produce big bodies as a nation naturally and a lot are going to basketball.
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If they play Sititi at 6, that means Savea at 8, and who at 7? Jacobson, Blackadder, Kirifi? All make for a small back row.
@taniwharugby said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
If they play Sititi at 6, that means Savea at 8, and who at 7? Jacobson, Blackadder, Kirifi? All make for a small back row.
I personally think playing Savea at 7 gives them more/better options then the next step is which are the best 6/8 and surely Sititi is there. Then the question is, is he best at 8 then choose a 6, or can he fill that 6 role and there is a better 8 alternative than 6 alternative?
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@taniwharugby said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
If they play Sititi at 6, that means Savea at 8, and who at 7? Jacobson, Blackadder, Kirifi? All make for a small back row.
I personally think playing Savea at 7 gives them more/better options then the next step is which are the best 6/8 and surely Sititi is there. Then the question is, is he best at 8 then choose a 6, or can he fill that 6 role and there is a better 8 alternative than 6 alternative?
@nostrildamus if they play Ardie at 7, Sotutu could play 8, but if they want Sititi at 8, it means they are likely to play Blackadder at 6, back to the small back row....as much as I don't wish ill on a player, but if Blackadder isn't available, that brings probably both Finau and Parker as options, and getting chances too.
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@nostrildamus if they play Ardie at 7, Sotutu could play 8, but if they want Sititi at 8, it means they are likely to play Blackadder at 6, back to the small back row....as much as I don't wish ill on a player, but if Blackadder isn't available, that brings probably both Finau and Parker as options, and getting chances too.
@taniwharugby said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@nostrildamus if they play Ardie at 7, Sotutu could play 8, but if they want Sititi at 8, it means they are likely to play Blackadder at 6, back to the small back row....as much as I don't wish ill on a player, but if Blackadder isn't available, that brings probably both Finau and Parker as options, and getting chances too.
Yes I'll leave it to all those unbiased Crusader fans to tell me EB is having a stormer run of form but I kind of think - been there, tried that, waited in the hospital waiting room long enough....
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I’m yet to clear my mind of the thinking that Finau is a bit of a flat track bully. But he has the ingredients for sure.
NZ Rugby currently having trouble finding big bodies - we don’t produce big bodies as a nation naturally and a lot are going to basketball.
@zedsdeadbaby said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
I’m yet to clear my mind of the thinking that Finau is a bit of a flat track bully. But he has the ingredients for sure.
And he’s a penalty magnet. That stood out big time tonight in the second 40.
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Finau doesn’t have a place in this discussion after today’s game.
He’s got the size and tools but isn’t ready.
At his age, he shouldn’t be coming to it, so maybe next year.
@gt12 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Finau doesn’t have a place in this discussion after today’s game.
He’s got the size and tools but isn’t ready.
At his age, he shouldn’t be coming to it, so maybe next year.
The issue, I feel, was Parker coming off. It forced Finau into the middle and he's just not a great decision maker in that space at the moment. He struggles playing in close connection with his fellow forwards.
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@gt12 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Finau doesn’t have a place in this discussion after today’s game.
He’s got the size and tools but isn’t ready.
At his age, he shouldn’t be coming to it, so maybe next year.
The issue, I feel, was Parker coming off. It forced Finau into the middle and he's just not a great decision maker in that space at the moment. He struggles playing in close connection with his fellow forwards.
@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@gt12 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Finau doesn’t have a place in this discussion after today’s game.
He’s got the size and tools but isn’t ready.
At his age, he shouldn’t be coming to it, so maybe next year.
The issue, I feel, was Parker coming off. It forced Finau into the middle and he's just not a great decision maker in that space at the moment. He struggles playing in close connection with his fellow forwards.
Yeah, very little mention of Wrampling having to play loose forward - which is kind of a big deal.
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I’m yet to clear my mind of the thinking that Finau is a bit of a flat track bully. But he has the ingredients for sure.
NZ Rugby currently having trouble finding big bodies - we don’t produce big bodies as a nation naturally and a lot are going to basketball.
@zedsdeadbaby said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
NZ Rugby currently having trouble finding big bodies - we don’t produce big bodies as a nation naturally and a lot are going to basketball.
It's something that's really noticeable at age grade level as well, for example when playing Australia. They seemingly have this endless pipeline of tall, athletic players in both the backs and forwards, despite the presence of basketball and AFL.
It makes it extra tough when players like Akira Ieremia - a big body with good coordination - leave early to places like Japan.
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Clear from this weekend's games that NZ has far too many strong loose forwards for Razor and co to not build a world-class trio. Who knows whether it includes Blackadder or not, but there are no excuses.
6 - Flanders, Howden, Parker
7 - Savea, Blackadder, Jacobson
8 - Sititi, SotutuFrance are bringing over a B-team, the selectors need to try some new things while they still have the opportunity.
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So I was rewatching the Chiefs-Blues game and Beehre had an impressive cameo. Not just the massive try at the death but his carrying and cleaning was really good as well. He has nimble feet and seems, to me, to be really mobile around the field.
https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExc2xjMGM3cHQ4NTYwcmt1ajg4dW9jMGNha2E1ejc5N2ZmZXdlZzU5MyZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/cNVNkq4r5A3FOLhddf/giphy.gif
https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExdWpidjVpemJ5MTlzbnR1cnZieGhveW9lM3FpaGV1bGQ3ajd0Y205dCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/KjBpvLV1Iko5t8bTNM/giphy.gif
Beehre showing nice footwork at the line before going more direct for his score at the endLooking at his season’s stats before the Chiefs game – 9.7 carries/80, 18 attacking rucks/80 at 82.5%, 16 tackles/80 at 95%, 5.7 defensive rucks hit/80 (Opta); 178 post-contact metres, 11 defenders beaten, 3 line-breaks, 2 tries across the season (RugbyPass) – he seems to get through a decent amount of work in an effective manner.
He also seems to have a bit of a niggly edge about him and thrives in the close quarters. So a bit of an enforcer with a solid lineout game, dynamic mobility and a high volume of defensive involvements.
Perhaps this is a bit of a strange one but: Beehre as a bolter for the blindside position?
I think it could work at Test level (I’d keep him at lock for Super Rugby). If the selectors do go in the direction of a bigger body at blindside, I think he could be an intriguing option.
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Don't think they'll go anywhere near Beehre as a Blindside option but I was tipping him as a second row bolter earlier in the year. He's probably not going to make the first selection unless there are injuries to a couple of the other more senior guys, but he's there or thereabouts.
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So I was rewatching the Chiefs-Blues game and Beehre had an impressive cameo. Not just the massive try at the death but his carrying and cleaning was really good as well. He has nimble feet and seems, to me, to be really mobile around the field.
https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExc2xjMGM3cHQ4NTYwcmt1ajg4dW9jMGNha2E1ejc5N2ZmZXdlZzU5MyZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/cNVNkq4r5A3FOLhddf/giphy.gif
https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExdWpidjVpemJ5MTlzbnR1cnZieGhveW9lM3FpaGV1bGQ3ajd0Y205dCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/KjBpvLV1Iko5t8bTNM/giphy.gif
Beehre showing nice footwork at the line before going more direct for his score at the endLooking at his season’s stats before the Chiefs game – 9.7 carries/80, 18 attacking rucks/80 at 82.5%, 16 tackles/80 at 95%, 5.7 defensive rucks hit/80 (Opta); 178 post-contact metres, 11 defenders beaten, 3 line-breaks, 2 tries across the season (RugbyPass) – he seems to get through a decent amount of work in an effective manner.
He also seems to have a bit of a niggly edge about him and thrives in the close quarters. So a bit of an enforcer with a solid lineout game, dynamic mobility and a high volume of defensive involvements.
Perhaps this is a bit of a strange one but: Beehre as a bolter for the blindside position?
I think it could work at Test level (I’d keep him at lock for Super Rugby). If the selectors do go in the direction of a bigger body at blindside, I think he could be an intriguing option.
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@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@gt12 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Finau doesn’t have a place in this discussion after today’s game.
He’s got the size and tools but isn’t ready.
At his age, he shouldn’t be coming to it, so maybe next year.
The issue, I feel, was Parker coming off. It forced Finau into the middle and he's just not a great decision maker in that space at the moment. He struggles playing in close connection with his fellow forwards.
Yeah, very little mention of Wrampling having to play loose forward - which is kind of a big deal.
@reprobate said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@Mauss said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
@gt12 said in AB Blindside - past, present & future:
Finau doesn’t have a place in this discussion after today’s game.
He’s got the size and tools but isn’t ready.
At his age, he shouldn’t be coming to it, so maybe next year.
The issue, I feel, was Parker coming off. It forced Finau into the middle and he's just not a great decision maker in that space at the moment. He struggles playing in close connection with his fellow forwards.
Yeah, very little mention of Wrampling having to play loose forward - which is kind of a big deal.
Wrampling was the Chiefs best player.
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So I was rewatching the Chiefs-Blues game and Beehre had an impressive cameo. Not just the massive try at the death but his carrying and cleaning was really good as well. He has nimble feet and seems, to me, to be really mobile around the field.
https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExc2xjMGM3cHQ4NTYwcmt1ajg4dW9jMGNha2E1ejc5N2ZmZXdlZzU5MyZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/cNVNkq4r5A3FOLhddf/giphy.gif
https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExdWpidjVpemJ5MTlzbnR1cnZieGhveW9lM3FpaGV1bGQ3ajd0Y205dCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/KjBpvLV1Iko5t8bTNM/giphy.gif
Beehre showing nice footwork at the line before going more direct for his score at the endLooking at his season’s stats before the Chiefs game – 9.7 carries/80, 18 attacking rucks/80 at 82.5%, 16 tackles/80 at 95%, 5.7 defensive rucks hit/80 (Opta); 178 post-contact metres, 11 defenders beaten, 3 line-breaks, 2 tries across the season (RugbyPass) – he seems to get through a decent amount of work in an effective manner.
He also seems to have a bit of a niggly edge about him and thrives in the close quarters. So a bit of an enforcer with a solid lineout game, dynamic mobility and a high volume of defensive involvements.
Perhaps this is a bit of a strange one but: Beehre as a bolter for the blindside position?
I think it could work at Test level (I’d keep him at lock for Super Rugby). If the selectors do go in the direction of a bigger body at blindside, I think he could be an intriguing option.
Beehre is a real workhorse and I'm a fan of his.
I do have sympathy for your idea about having a bigger player at six - a Kaino sized player at least.
The thing about the bigger options you mentioned is that none of them are as big as PsTD. And none of him are close to having the same engine. Probably only Finau is as dynamic too.
When Scott Barrett first started playing Super Rugby he would have been 5kg lighter and he had a lot more pace. IMO he could have been a world class blindside if he was developed there. He's been very good at a lock at times but its tough to say he has been world class.
The thing is Razor played him at lock and apart from maybe 1 or 2 games never seemed to entertain the idea of playing him at blindside. Instead Razor has gone for much smaller, lighter guys who are jack of all trades type guys - at 6. I think the biggest guy he's played at 6 for the Crusaders was probably Cullen Grace? So I'd be surprised if Razor ends up going with a bigger style blindside.
