All Blacks - loosie selections in recent years
-
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan But he was fit when selected in the squad wasn't he? He certainly played the Crusaders last couple of games. Then he wasn't selected to start at 6 for 2 games while Finau was, then he got a start at 7 in the 3rd while Jacobson got a run at 6. His first game at 6 wasn't until Argentina. He played both games against them, then SA 1 where we actually looked good for the first half and he played well. Then injured.
I think Blackadder only got his chance because Finau and Jacobson the other 6s picked didn't immediately impress - and he did play better than them. Why wouldn't he have kept his spot?
Wallace was picked as an 8, it was Ardie he was stuck behind - before a heap of things happened. Had he even played a super game at 6? It's certainly not like his season of dominant performances at 6 demanded selection and Blackadder was egregiously selected over him.
If you look at the other loosies last year: Cane, DP, LJ, Finau, Savea, Sititi. Of those, Sititi was a surprise standout, Savea was not at his best but still okay, and the others were all disappointing. So why is it EB who is undeserving - he played better than 4 of the other loosies in my eyes. He's just a really weird scapegoat to choose for our loosies being shit.Blackadder was injured for the start of the season, and was put straight back into the starting lineup when he was fit again. He started every single test he was fit for last year, which in theory would make him the incumbent, hence peoples concerns that were are going to end up with an EB - Savea - Sititi trio which won't work against the top sides.
-
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks 2025:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
I mean all of our issues with the balance of the loosies is because the coaches didn't want Akira, despite being a super talented big body with AB experience and in career best form. Their personal beef with Akira is really, really hurting them now.
Share your opinion with certainty and you will always get a few likes
Ioane is one of many super talented blindsides we have tried with mixed output. Some excellent performances and some not so.
Sorry ACT but this is exactly what I am talking about. Nonu and Kaino both also had some excellent performances with many not so, but it was clear they had the tools to succeed at the top level (given their excellent performances) so were persevered with until they matured into the consistent players they became. Akira has been cast aside due to personal beef/bias from our coaches just as he came of age as a player, which is a crazy waste of talent. And yes I will die on this hill.
-
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan But he was fit when selected in the squad wasn't he? He certainly played the Crusaders last couple of games. Then he wasn't selected to start at 6 for 2 games while Finau was, then he got a start at 7 in the 3rd while Jacobson got a run at 6. His first game at 6 wasn't until Argentina. He played both games against them, then SA 1 where we actually looked good for the first half and he played well. Then injured.
I think Blackadder only got his chance because Finau and Jacobson the other 6s picked didn't immediately impress - and he did play better than them. Why wouldn't he have kept his spot?
Wallace was picked as an 8, it was Ardie he was stuck behind - before a heap of things happened. Had he even played a super game at 6? It's certainly not like his season of dominant performances at 6 demanded selection and Blackadder was egregiously selected over him.
If you look at the other loosies last year: Cane, DP, LJ, Finau, Savea, Sititi. Of those, Sititi was a surprise standout, Savea was not at his best but still okay, and the others were all disappointing. So why is it EB who is undeserving - he played better than 4 of the other loosies in my eyes. He's just a really weird scapegoat to choose for our loosies being shit.Blackadder is always in their minds. They love his workrate. The thing about Finau is we won those two games against England. He didn't play poorly.
It was a solid effort against solid England loose trios.
Finau has far more upside long term than Blackadder and they could have built on that. Instead they give Blackadder several tests to build some form only for him to get injured.
In the only metric that matters: 0% Fern MOTM votes for Samipeni in both games. I don't think he was bad by any means, but he didn't stand out or dominate. You can make an argument that he deserved more of a chance, sure, but it's hardly black and white. Jacobson came off the bench in those two tests and was also solid but didn't add much, then started the next one. Blackadder just played better than them. Then Sititi - who did stand out - kept getting picked.
If you want to keep picking an okay Finau, Sititi doesn't get a run.Blackadder and Sititi came in for that first test against Argentina that we lost. They each gave away 3 penalties. That was half of our penalties for the game. Sititi managed his 3 penalties in 16 minutes.
When Sititi came on for Papali'i we were actually winning the game.
Neither Finau or Jacobson caused those kinds of problems for us in the other games.
BTW Blackadder finished the year on 1 vote and Finau on 3 votes.
-
Arguing about Blackadder v Finau v Ioane v Frizell... the whole point is all four are/were inconsistent, all four have their strengths and weaknesses, and none of them have been able to nail down the number six jersey, because for those reasons they are limited. Blindside flanker has long been a problem position for the All Blacks (including when Kaino is around), because of what the role entails.
Depending what is asked of the blindside flanker, I'm not sure they can ever be that consistent. If they go for Savea and Sititi though, they are probably looking for a guy to hit rucks, and to carry hard up the middle. Blackadder for all his faults will attempt to do that. I personally think if you stuck Holland in at lock you might be able go a little bit more adventurous, but as others have pointed out, maybe Sititi should go to the bench?
-
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan But he was fit when selected in the squad wasn't he? He certainly played the Crusaders last couple of games. Then he wasn't selected to start at 6 for 2 games while Finau was, then he got a start at 7 in the 3rd while Jacobson got a run at 6. His first game at 6 wasn't until Argentina. He played both games against them, then SA 1 where we actually looked good for the first half and he played well. Then injured.
I think Blackadder only got his chance because Finau and Jacobson the other 6s picked didn't immediately impress - and he did play better than them. Why wouldn't he have kept his spot?
Wallace was picked as an 8, it was Ardie he was stuck behind - before a heap of things happened. Had he even played a super game at 6? It's certainly not like his season of dominant performances at 6 demanded selection and Blackadder was egregiously selected over him.
If you look at the other loosies last year: Cane, DP, LJ, Finau, Savea, Sititi. Of those, Sititi was a surprise standout, Savea was not at his best but still okay, and the others were all disappointing. So why is it EB who is undeserving - he played better than 4 of the other loosies in my eyes. He's just a really weird scapegoat to choose for our loosies being shit.Blackadder is always in their minds. They love his workrate. The thing about Finau is we won those two games against England. He didn't play poorly.
It was a solid effort against solid England loose trios.
Finau has far more upside long term than Blackadder and they could have built on that. Instead they give Blackadder several tests to build some form only for him to get injured.
In the only metric that matters: 0% Fern MOTM votes for Samipeni in both games. I don't think he was bad by any means, but he didn't stand out or dominate. You can make an argument that he deserved more of a chance, sure, but it's hardly black and white. Jacobson came off the bench in those two tests and was also solid but didn't add much, then started the next one. Blackadder just played better than them. Then Sititi - who did stand out - kept getting picked.
If you want to keep picking an okay Finau, Sititi doesn't get a run.Blackadder and Sititi came in for that first test against Argentina that we lost. They each gave away 3 penalties. That was half of our penalties for the game. Sititi managed his 3 penalties in 16 minutes.
When Sititi came on for Papali'i we were actually winning the game.
Neither Finau or Jacobson caused those kinds of problems for us in the other games.
BTW Blackadder finished the year on 1 vote and Finau on 3 votes.
Sititi was crap vs ARG: but you don't discard a guy based on 16 minutes, and after that he was really good.
Jacobson would have been close to the most penalised guy in Super rugby last year I reckon, and Finau's discipline is currently being rubbished on here for just last weekend.
When Blackadder came off for Finau against SA we were winning the game too.
You're talking MOTM points not votes. All 3 for Finau would be vs Japan probably. -
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan But he was fit when selected in the squad wasn't he? He certainly played the Crusaders last couple of games. Then he wasn't selected to start at 6 for 2 games while Finau was, then he got a start at 7 in the 3rd while Jacobson got a run at 6. His first game at 6 wasn't until Argentina. He played both games against them, then SA 1 where we actually looked good for the first half and he played well. Then injured.
I think Blackadder only got his chance because Finau and Jacobson the other 6s picked didn't immediately impress - and he did play better than them. Why wouldn't he have kept his spot?
Wallace was picked as an 8, it was Ardie he was stuck behind - before a heap of things happened. Had he even played a super game at 6? It's certainly not like his season of dominant performances at 6 demanded selection and Blackadder was egregiously selected over him.
If you look at the other loosies last year: Cane, DP, LJ, Finau, Savea, Sititi. Of those, Sititi was a surprise standout, Savea was not at his best but still okay, and the others were all disappointing. So why is it EB who is undeserving - he played better than 4 of the other loosies in my eyes. He's just a really weird scapegoat to choose for our loosies being shit.Blackadder is always in their minds. They love his workrate. The thing about Finau is we won those two games against England. He didn't play poorly.
It was a solid effort against solid England loose trios.
Finau has far more upside long term than Blackadder and they could have built on that. Instead they give Blackadder several tests to build some form only for him to get injured.
In the only metric that matters: 0% Fern MOTM votes for Samipeni in both games. I don't think he was bad by any means, but he didn't stand out or dominate. You can make an argument that he deserved more of a chance, sure, but it's hardly black and white. Jacobson came off the bench in those two tests and was also solid but didn't add much, then started the next one. Blackadder just played better than them. Then Sititi - who did stand out - kept getting picked.
If you want to keep picking an okay Finau, Sititi doesn't get a run.Blackadder and Sititi came in for that first test against Argentina that we lost. They each gave away 3 penalties. That was half of our penalties for the game. Sititi managed his 3 penalties in 16 minutes.
When Sititi came on for Papali'i we were actually winning the game.
Neither Finau or Jacobson caused those kinds of problems for us in the other games.
BTW Blackadder finished the year on 1 vote and Finau on 3 votes.
Sititi was crap vs ARG: but you don't discard a guy based on 16 minutes, and after that he was really good.
Your argument was that Sititi and Blackadder got a chance and produced right away while Finau and Jacobson were solid.
Clearly that was not the case. They both contributed to a our first loss of the year - against Argentina. A team we should have put away given the lead we had.
-
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@brodean Finau and Jacobson would have both had over 100 minutes of test footy at that point. You can't compare that to 16 from Sititi.
That's not relevant. You said both of them took their chances immediately which clearly they didn't. They were both given the benefit of the doubt despite contributing to the first loss of 2025 with poor discipline.
IMO it would have been better to stick to the combination that won against England. There was no reason to bring Blackadder in at 6.
-
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2025:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
Def agree with your premise on developing players over time (see Tupou Vaa'i). And while Akira was treated badly by Hansen but he had more opportunists than many under Foster but never quite kicked on.
Robertson and co. may have missed a trick last year with him, but we'll never know
And neither did Blackadder and Frizell yet one is an insta pick when fit and the other one is being courted constantly by the Tubby coach despite the fact he is in Japan and a shitty human.
Akira was given about an equal chance by Foster vs Frizellm then they chose Frizell. He was going overseas before Robertson announced a squad. And apparently shitty humans is the way forward anyway.
Blackadder still hasn't played as many games for the ABs as Akira did - so you could argue he hasn't had as much of a chance yet..Frizell clearly got more opportunities than Akira, otherwise how else would he have failed so spectacularly in a RWC final? Akira wasn't there. My response was to a comment saying he had more opportunists (sic) than others.
You're being a bit disingenuous about the number of games Blackadder has played, he's an insta pick in AB squads when not injured, he's just injured frequently.
I think you're being disingenuous about Frizell vs Ioane. They were clearly both auditioning for the 6 role at the world cup, and there was heaps of debate about it on here - and Ioane wasn't compellingly better. We weren't playing well with either of them there - but even you would have to admit that Frizz played one really good game in that period, where he was the player they wanted him to be. Prior to them making the call, the opportunities given would have been similar I reckon. After they made the call, of course Frizell played more games. That he was a bit shit in the WC after that doesn't change the fact that Ioane and he shared the 6 jersey in the lead-up before they settled on him.
I find the Blackadder hate weird - he's a good player, hasn't let anyone down whenever he's been fit to play and hasn't had the opportunity for an extended run - and he was picked by the previous coaches, it's not like he's a Fihaki. It's also not like we're not picking McCaw instead of him, all we're missing out on in the squad is just whichever poster's parochial favourite medium good loosie.Frizell had that one good game you mentioned (we all know about it because it was mentioned ad nauseam on here before he reverted to type). And yes you're right the previous selectors chose him, therefore he got more opportunities, thats not disingenuous, it's just a fact.
As @canefan notes no one hates Blackadder, not thinking he's good enough, and thinking he is unfairly favoured isn't hate. Although, I think Blackadder would have acquitted himself better than the Tongan Thug in the RWC final.
-
I kind of feel loosies getting penalties means theyre getting into the game, i would slightly prefer it than being anonymous...as long as it doesnt persist, go out and be a menace...but settle
-
I can sympathise to a degree but most of our players including our loose forwards don't get penalised more than once in a game.
For example in the Irish game we won these were the penalties:
2 Vaa'i
1 JB
1 Savea
1 CaneIn the French game there were 7 penalties against us. No player had more than 1 penalty.
So in those two games we had an average of 6 penalties. Which is the same amount that Blackadder and Sititi gave away in the game against Argentina. And those were on top of the 6 other penalties other players gave away against Argentina.
-
Yeah Sititi had a shocker off the bench that game and was only brought in after that due to injuries, all the talk of the coaches "identifying his talent and developing it" are largely horseshit. They chucked him in the deep end and hoped like hell he'd swim because they had no one else (due to their own making). They were extraordinarily lucky that he stepped up the way he did, there was every chance he'd have another poor game and have his confidence shot to shit as a complete rookie. But then at the same time we were playing two 8s and a 7 with no 6, so lost the ruck battle every time.
Razor's ideas on what constitutes a balanced trio may have worked 20 years ago when he was still playing, but it sure as shit doesn't work in the modern game.
-
As an aside, I have Sititi penciled in as a future AB captain. Outside of his obvious talent, he's a seriously impressive young man
-
@No-Quarter Interesting question. When we say Razor's idea on what constitutes a balanced trio, do we actually know what this looks like?
The only reason why I say this, is because Finau was the first option at the start of last year, and then was dropped because he didn't perform. They are seemingly chasing Frizell also - both of those guys are 1.9m+ big bastards.
Even you look at his Crusaders sides. Barring 2023, Cullen Grace was a consistent starter - big dude, and by all accounts, had it not been for injuries, Dom Gardiner was another one they liked. In 2022, Grace and Pablo Matera were often deployed together. Prior to that, Kieran Read was obviously the eight, but even a guy like Whetu Douglas was well thought of by Razor - all big dudes.
I think it is entirely possible, that Razor is looking for a big brute to play six, but they don't currently believe they have a guy to do it, so tweaked the gameplan. Have a look at the 6s/8s picked for the NZ XV. They weren't .5s outside of CLW. Haig, Parker, Flanders - even Sotutu (withdrew with injury). I think the long-term vision was always for Sititi to play 8. Ardie was at 8 last year, because they wanted to play Cane.
Parker, Ardie, Sititi, Lakai, CLW & 2 out of Papalii, Jacobson and Blackadder. Papalii is a like for like for Cane, so if they want that option in the squad, then he stays in. If they are looking for a brute on the blindside, Jacobson could be in trouble.
-
@reprobate said in All Blacks - loosie selections in recent years:
@canefan Robertson has only been coach for one season mate, and according to Mauss' blindside thread it went like this:
Finau, Finau, Jacobson, Blackadder, Blackadder, Blackadder, Sititi, Sititi, Sititi, Finau, Sititi, Sititi, Finau, Sititi.He started 3 tests in a row - after Finau and Jacobson didn't play the house down - then was injured and didn't start another. What you're saying just isn't correct.
He was probably injured for the first three.
-
@frugby said in All Blacks - loosie selections in recent years:
@No-Quarter Interesting question. When we say Razor's idea on what constitutes a balanced trio, do we actually know what this looks like?
I think the long-term vision was always for Sititi to play 8. Ardie was at 8 last year, because they wanted to play Cane.Parker, Ardie, Sititi, Lakai, CLW & 2 out of Papalii, Jacobson and Blackadder. Papalii is a like for like for Cane, so if they want that option in the squad, then he stays in. If they are looking for a brute on the blindside, Jacobson could be in trouble.
I'm a 1 out of 3 for EB/DP/LJ.
I don't really see what Lakai adds other than youth.
I don't think Parker has done quite enough. Potential, yeah.
I think Sititi was picked as a young back-up 8 - maybe a long term vision - to Savea who was always going to play 80, and only got a run at all through Finau and Jacobson not standing out, then Blackadder being injured. Even with Cane not available they wouldn't shift Savea to 7 - surely that changes now though. I'm not actually sure Sititi is big enough to play 8 without a bruiser at 6 - and we don't have one.
Ardie is the best 7 in the country. Kirifi is #2.
Sotutu is the best 8 in the country. Sititi is #2 if he gets back to form.
6 is a shitshow. Blackadder if you want workrate, Finau if you want wide running power, Parker if you want tight grunt. Sititi if he isn't playing 8.
Fuck knows. I don't even know what I want, let alone what that silly combover fluffybunny wants. -
One thing not really discussed here is even what the hell is EB's best position, or Jacobson.
It seems unfair to move them around, and maybe we should just stick with a specialist 6. Sure they can both do that but LJ seems to be permanently moved because of his utility value and if you want a big bruising 6, I just don't think EB's body can take it. So it's not saying he/they are crap players but an argument they're being done a disservice (well actually LJ can play all 3 positions but he's kind of turned into a swinging door at international level). Whoever they choose I hope they bed them in ,and try to establish decent combinations. -
Jacobson feels like an ideal bench option - can play all three positions, very Masoe like.
The problem is that's literally an entire generation of rugby ago. The current replacement laws and their implementation by SA have shown that you may as well stack your bench with 6 forward replacements, so all-rounders are less and less important.
And, in other news:
"We're just making sure we get our combinations right, like who can play in two positions. What will help us win those three tests ... how do we manage those positions, combinations - that's been our work at the moment."
Razor, ODT, May 2024
-
Luke Jacobson has never been given a proper starting run for the All Blacks - he's largely been thrown scraps against average teams when the whole side is rotated or asked to come off the bench, which isn't really his strength. I wouldn't mind seeing him get some proper minutes in one position.
