2025 All Blacks v France series
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@reprobate said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Also it was the Chiefs back 3 who looked silly in what was largely a kicking battle on the weekend, not Will Jordan - he was dominant.
And? Outside Stevenson, who was a complete no-show in the final, none of the Chiefs back three are good kickers.
Tell me what he does under the high ball when he's in a 10x bigger game vs much better kickers.
@hikastags said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
And? Outside Stevenson, who was a complete no-show in the final, none of the Chiefs back three are good kickers.
You don't rate Narawa's kicking game? I rate it, can be pretty good.
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When he played fullback a few years ago he didn't really pass or playmake, he wasn't really used on exits and whilst he has a long punt from fullback it wasn't one that he utilised to great effect from 15. Whilst he is quick enough he didn't offer the strike ability that Jordan possesses either.
And when Jordan plays fullback against a team with a quality kicking game he's unfortunately looked mediocre.
The strike ability is useless when the opposition plays through the air, spams high balls and kicks into the corner all game.
Jordan turned the ball over 5 times against France last year
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@hikastags said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
And? Outside Stevenson, who was a complete no-show in the final, none of the Chiefs back three are good kickers.
You don't rate Narawa's kicking game? I rate it, can be pretty good.
@nostrildamus said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@hikastags said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
And? Outside Stevenson, who was a complete no-show in the final, none of the Chiefs back three are good kickers.
You don't rate Narawa's kicking game? I rate it, can be pretty good.
ENS has a very good kicking game too.
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On the subject of Chiefs kicking game - in the final one thing they lacked was a big boot to get them out of their 22, especially in the 2nd half. It might have been their Achilles heel.
Ratima's kicks were puny tbh and Mackenzie was not getting much distance on the ball either. -
@hikastags said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
And? Outside Stevenson, who was a complete no-show in the final, none of the Chiefs back three are good kickers.
You don't rate Narawa's kicking game? I rate it, can be pretty good.
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@nostrildamus said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@hikastags said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
And? Outside Stevenson, who was a complete no-show in the final, none of the Chiefs back three are good kickers.
You don't rate Narawa's kicking game? I rate it, can be pretty good.
ENS has a very good kicking game too.
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@hikastags said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@sparky said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@Darren I see 14 as Will Jordan's natural position at test level, but he played bloody well for the Crusaders at fullback this year and I suspect Robertson will play him there.
Agree. Boks and the French with their kicking games have made Jordan look silly when he's played at fb.
If you built a fullback in a lab - Jordie would be it. Tall, quick, high IQ, great under high ball, can pass and playmake, kicks long and has great exits. I think he should be our fullback come 2027. Also allows you to play a crash-ball type at 12 like Tavatavanawai, Tupaea or Fainga'anuku which I think is best if you have DMac at 10. The crash-ball 12 would take a ton of pressure off DMac and holds off the blitz-D systems that everyone seems to be using these days.
Jordie's not quick, and he's not elusive. If most people could build a fullback in a lab, I reckon they'd build Christian Cullen - and Jordie most certainly isn't that.
Also it was the Chiefs back 3 who looked silly in what was largely a kicking battle on the weekend, not Will Jordan - he was dominant.@reprobate said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@hikastags said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@sparky said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@Darren I see 14 as Will Jordan's natural position at test level, but he played bloody well for the Crusaders at fullback this year and I suspect Robertson will play him there.
Agree. Boks and the French with their kicking games have made Jordan look silly when he's played at fb.
If you built a fullback in a lab - Jordie would be it. Tall, quick, high IQ, great under high ball, can pass and playmake, kicks long and has great exits. I think he should be our fullback come 2027. Also allows you to play a crash-ball type at 12 like Tavatavanawai, Tupaea or Fainga'anuku which I think is best if you have DMac at 10. The crash-ball 12 would take a ton of pressure off DMac and holds off the blitz-D systems that everyone seems to be using these days.
Jordie's not quick, and he's not elusive. If most people could build a fullback in a lab, I reckon they'd build Christian Cullen - and Jordie most certainly isn't that.
Also it was the Chiefs back 3 who looked silly in what was largely a kicking battle on the weekend, not Will Jordan - he was dominant.Jordan is our most talented outside back but as an overall rugby player he isn't close to Cullen or Smith or young BB off the bench. He's probably not as good as peak Israel Dagg either.
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@nostrildamus It's fine but don't think it's anything to crow home about. Didn't do much for the Chiefs in the weekend.
@hikastags said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@nostrildamus It's fine but don't think it's anything to crow home about. Didn't do much for the Chiefs in the weekend.
Ok if we are judging by the weekend, Will Jordan is the All Black fullback.
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Jordan turned the ball over 5 times against France last year
@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Jordan turned the ball over 5 times against France last year
Yeah they targeted him. As do the Boks when he's at fullback. Happened in 2023 also, both teams targeted him when he was on the wing .
I like Jordan at fullback FWIW... just not vs the Boks and the French. Jordie is better suited to counter their aerial game IMO.
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@reprobate said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@hikastags said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@sparky said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@Darren I see 14 as Will Jordan's natural position at test level, but he played bloody well for the Crusaders at fullback this year and I suspect Robertson will play him there.
Agree. Boks and the French with their kicking games have made Jordan look silly when he's played at fb.
If you built a fullback in a lab - Jordie would be it. Tall, quick, high IQ, great under high ball, can pass and playmake, kicks long and has great exits. I think he should be our fullback come 2027. Also allows you to play a crash-ball type at 12 like Tavatavanawai, Tupaea or Fainga'anuku which I think is best if you have DMac at 10. The crash-ball 12 would take a ton of pressure off DMac and holds off the blitz-D systems that everyone seems to be using these days.
Jordie's not quick, and he's not elusive. If most people could build a fullback in a lab, I reckon they'd build Christian Cullen - and Jordie most certainly isn't that.
Also it was the Chiefs back 3 who looked silly in what was largely a kicking battle on the weekend, not Will Jordan - he was dominant.Jordan is our most talented outside back but as an overall rugby player he isn't close to Cullen or Smith or young BB off the bench. He's probably not as good as peak Israel Dagg either.
@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Jordan is our most talented outside back but as an overall rugby player he isn't close to Cullen or Smith or young BB off the bench. He's probably not as good as peak Israel Dagg either.
Peak Jordan is darn good.
Peak Dagg didn't happen nearly as often.
And overall, Dagg scored just 138 points in 66 games.
Jordan, 190 points in 41 games. At age 27.
https://stats.allblacks.com/all-players/profile/Israel-Dagg-AB-1101
https://stats.allblacks.com/all-players/profile/Will-Jordan-AB-1191There's little point comparing Dagg to Cullen because he's a GOAT.
Or to Ben Smith, because he's one of my all-time favourite accountants. -
@hikastags said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@nostrildamus It's fine but don't think it's anything to crow home about. Didn't do much for the Chiefs in the weekend.
Ok if we are judging by the weekend, Will Jordan is the All Black fullback.
Ok if we are judging by the weekend, Will Jordan is the All Black fullback.
I know Jordan will be fb. Just my opinion it should be Jordie.
I think the All Blacks are far more dynamic when they have a big ball-running 12 which takes a boat load of pressure off whoever the 10 is. The South Africans lick their lips at Jordie playing 12. He's too tall to be used as a crash-ball merchant and the big Saffas nail him like he's made of paper.
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@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Jordan turned the ball over 5 times against France last year
Yeah they targeted him. As do the Boks when he's at fullback. Happened in 2023 also, both teams targeted him when he was on the wing .
I like Jordan at fullback FWIW... just not vs the Boks and the French. Jordie is better suited to counter their aerial game IMO.
@hikastags so he’s played one test against the French at fullback, and yes he didn’t play well. But I think he’s growing in confidence and cutting down the errors. Another season and hopefully getting more comfortable with the wingers too.
The Aussies would target CC also and exposed some of the limitations in his defensive game. But he was persisted with for good reason.
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Ok if we are judging by the weekend, Will Jordan is the All Black fullback.
I know Jordan will be fb. Just my opinion it should be Jordie.
I think the All Blacks are far more dynamic when they have a big ball-running 12 which takes a boat load of pressure off whoever the 10 is. The South Africans lick their lips at Jordie playing 12. He's too tall to be used as a crash-ball merchant and the big Saffas nail him like he's made of paper.
@hikastags said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Ok if we are judging by the weekend, Will Jordan is the All Black fullback.
I know Jordan will be fb. Just my opinion it should be Jordie.
I think the All Blacks are far more dynamic when they have a big ball-running 12 which takes a boat load of pressure off whoever the 10 is. The South Africans lick their lips at Jordie playing 12. He's too tall to be used as a crash-ball merchant and the big Saffas nail him like he's made of paper.
Indeed. Has never stood out vs De Allende or Esterhuizen and PSDT hit him so hard and often in the WC final I can only assume he owed him some money.
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@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Jordan is our most talented outside back but as an overall rugby player he isn't close to Cullen or Smith or young BB off the bench. He's probably not as good as peak Israel Dagg either.
Peak Jordan is darn good.
Peak Dagg didn't happen nearly as often.
And overall, Dagg scored just 138 points in 66 games.
Jordan, 190 points in 41 games. At age 27.
https://stats.allblacks.com/all-players/profile/Israel-Dagg-AB-1101
https://stats.allblacks.com/all-players/profile/Will-Jordan-AB-1191There's little point comparing Dagg to Cullen because he's a GOAT.
Or to Ben Smith, because he's one of my all-time favourite accountants.@nostrildamus said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Jordan is our most talented outside back but as an overall rugby player he isn't close to Cullen or Smith or young BB off the bench. He's probably not as good as peak Israel Dagg either.
Peak Jordan is darn good.
Peak Dagg didn't happen nearly as often.
And overall, Dagg scored just 138 points in 66 games.
Jordan, 190 points in 41 games. At age 27.There's little point comparing Dagg to Cullen because he's a GOAT.
Or to Ben Smith, because he's one of my all-time favourite accountants.the other thing about jordan....he's achieved those stats in a less impressive team than someone like Dagg played in, he isn;t being lifted by world beaters playing next too him
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I have a lot of time for Jordie at fullback, he was rock solid for us there and our best player on the park in a number of matches. Defensively he is comfortably our best full back and he really nullifies opposition kicking games as there are not many better in the air than him. I have memories of him having to charge around the field taking every high ball one game as the wingers (Bridge was one of them) couldn't handle them at all. That skillset is a huge plus in the modern game.
I'm not convinced his move to 12 has been a huge success, especially when paired with Rieko, our outsides don't see enough quality ball and his height does make him a bit of an easy target on the crash. A back three of Clarke - Jordie - Jordan allows us to counter opposition kicking games much more effectively, while still offering plenty of strike power when the opportunities arise.
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I have a lot of time for Jordie at fullback, he was rock solid for us there and our best player on the park in a number of matches. Defensively he is comfortably our best full back and he really nullifies opposition kicking games as there are not many better in the air than him. I have memories of him having to charge around the field taking every high ball one game as the wingers (Bridge was one of them) couldn't handle them at all. That skillset is a huge plus in the modern game.
I'm not convinced his move to 12 has been a huge success, especially when paired with Rieko, our outsides don't see enough quality ball and his height does make him a bit of an easy target on the crash. A back three of Clarke - Jordie - Jordan allows us to counter opposition kicking games much more effectively, while still offering plenty of strike power when the opportunities arise.
@No-Quarter said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
I have a lot of time for Jordie at fullback, he was rock solid for us there and our best player on the park in a number of matches. Defensively he is comfortably our best full back and he really nullifies opposition kicking games as there are not many better in the air than him. I have memories of him having to charge around the field taking every high ball one game as the wingers (Bridge was one of them) couldn't handle them at all. That skillset is a huge plus in the modern game.
I'm not convinced his move to 12 has been a huge success, especially when paired with Rieko, our outsides don't see enough quality ball and his height does make him a bit of an easy target on the crash. A back three of Clarke - Jordie - Jordan allows us to counter opposition kicking games much more effectively, while still offering plenty of strike power when the opportunities arise.
People were probably fooled a bit into thinking Jordie was better at 12 than he was because Havili had been ineffective compared to big units like De Allende, Esterhuizen, Aki etc.
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On the subject of Chiefs kicking game - in the final one thing they lacked was a big boot to get them out of their 22, especially in the 2nd half. It might have been their Achilles heel.
Ratima's kicks were puny tbh and Mackenzie was not getting much distance on the ball either.@nonpartizan said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
On the subject of Chiefs kicking game - in the final one thing they lacked was a big boot to get them out of their 22, especially in the 2nd half. It might have been their Achilles heel.
Ratima's kicks were puny tbh and Mackenzie was not getting much distance on the ball either.Ratima's kicks were terrible throughout. He was hooking the box kicks so far infield they were basically giving ideal attacking position to the Crusaders and completely uncontested.
The other thing which was really poor was the back three's positioning: their kicking was not so much the issue in itself, as the time they took to get the ball, being out of position, letting it bounce and roll - so that they were kicking under pressure and from further back than they should have been. -
@Bones said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Is Jordan still as quick as he used to be?
He's at that magical age where All Black wingers degrade.
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@nonpartizan said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
On the subject of Chiefs kicking game - in the final one thing they lacked was a big boot to get them out of their 22, especially in the 2nd half. It might have been their Achilles heel.
Ratima's kicks were puny tbh and Mackenzie was not getting much distance on the ball either.Ratima's kicks were terrible throughout. He was hooking the box kicks so far infield they were basically giving ideal attacking position to the Crusaders and completely uncontested.
The other thing which was really poor was the back three's positioning: their kicking was not so much the issue in itself, as the time they took to get the ball, being out of position, letting it bounce and roll - so that they were kicking under pressure and from further back than they should have been.@reprobate said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@nonpartizan said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
On the subject of Chiefs kicking game - in the final one thing they lacked was a big boot to get them out of their 22, especially in the 2nd half. It might have been their Achilles heel.
Ratima's kicks were puny tbh and Mackenzie was not getting much distance on the ball either.Ratima's kicks were terrible throughout. He was hooking the box kicks so far infield they were basically giving ideal attacking position to the Crusaders and completely uncontested.
The other thing which was really poor was the back three's positioning: their kicking was not so much the issue in itself, as the time they took to get the ball, being out of position, letting it bounce and roll - so that they were kicking under pressure and from further back than they should have been.I hadn't thought about that but you are dead right. The one that springs to mind was when Carter retrieved a bouncing ball in the first half, was swarmed by Reece and the Crusaders ended up getting a penalty - iirc.
That would have been avoided if he was better positioned.
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@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Jordan is our most talented outside back but as an overall rugby player he isn't close to Cullen or Smith or young BB off the bench. He's probably not as good as peak Israel Dagg either.
Peak Jordan is darn good.
Peak Dagg didn't happen nearly as often.
And overall, Dagg scored just 138 points in 66 games.
Jordan, 190 points in 41 games. At age 27.
https://stats.allblacks.com/all-players/profile/Israel-Dagg-AB-1101
https://stats.allblacks.com/all-players/profile/Will-Jordan-AB-1191There's little point comparing Dagg to Cullen because he's a GOAT.
Or to Ben Smith, because he's one of my all-time favourite accountants.@nostrildamus said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
@brodean said in 2025 All Blacks Squad v France:
Peak Dagg didn't happen nearly as often.Happened enough to win an RWC.
Also Dagg was much more of a playmaker looking to set up others from fullback where as Jordan has spent most of his AB career on the wing.
