Rugby or NFL
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I think it’s already there. Especially at international level. Trying to search for perfection when that’s just not possible.
I’d honestly look to get rid of the TMO other than for groundings or in touch in goal.
If you’ve got to the in goal without something clear and obvious to the three goddamn sets of eyes on the park then you should get the benefit of the doubt your work to get there was legal. -
@zedsdeadbaby said in Rugby or NFL:
I’d honestly look to get rid of the TMO other than for groundings or in touch in goal.
That's where it started. I think it's great to go back, but you have to be prepared to accept missed howlers. And politically that won't happen I suspect.
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@nzzp said in Rugby or NFL:
@zedsdeadbaby said in Rugby or NFL:
I’d honestly look to get rid of the TMO other than for groundings or in touch in goal.
That's where it started. I think it's great to go back, but you have to be prepared to accept missed howlers. And politically that won't happen I suspect.
As a start, the TMO should only look at things when asked to by the ref. Not be scouting and hunting for things on their own.
If you went further, you could keep the TMO but only use them for [2] captains challenges per game
Or they could be ditched altogether.
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The cynic in me wonders if we'd be very happy to restrict the TMO, until they can't rule on a dead set howler against our own team that the ref has missed. "FFS, how can they let that stand!!"
I think the genie is forever out of the bottle... best middle ground might indeed be that captains challenge model where you burn them if you get them wrong, so it's then on our own team if they Shane Watson the reviews.
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@NTA said in Rugby or NFL:
DRS!
I did love this CricInfo take on Khawaja burning a review...
2.5 rapped right in front, and that is plumb with a capital P! Almost a carbon copy of Khawaja's dismissals in the last two innings. This starts outside off, pitches on a back of a length and swerves back in devilishly. Khawaja is caught on the crease again and gets pinned on the back leg. The ball might have kept a little low as well, but that seemed pretty adjacent. Khawaja, though, wants to have another look. There is daylight between bat and ball. Ball Tracking comes up and...reckons the ball would have missed off stump. And leg stump. Because it is absolutely clattering into the middle of middle stump. Khawaja's woes continue, and Australia's top-order woes continue! 4/2
On top of a great burn of his judgement, it puts the onus on the team if they're trying to overturn an official decision.
The rugby model might have had the third umpire intervening for another two minutes just as Usman was about to cross the boundary rope, before sticking with the original decision.
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@mohikamo said in Rugby or NFL:
i don't mind if the ref misses something (hopefully not part of the drama tho!), i can accept that
but i go off-my-head when the ref calls something that didn't happen!
like a knock-on, forward pass, off-side, etc; that wasn't
when that happens the ref is clearly imagining things - a referee shoudn't imagine things!
Yeah, it's fairly common for refs to make calls on what they think happened, or the mabo, gets frustrating.
Like a tackled player releasing the ball, then the tackler gets one hand on it but no lift, or lifts but just drags/pulls it into the tackled player with no intention of actually retrieving the ball.
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The part I heard i didn't like was on the run Berry saying "I think it's saw.... can you check" and it wasn't foul play.
Rugby is too chaotic to be governed like this. I have said it for years. And I have been consistent.
In a game where the difference between a penalty either way is a guess about timing, and something that is legal becomes illegal at a certain point, is impossible to be adjudicated on replay.
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Maybe they should ensure the ref makes a call (eg i think a try was scored) then the TMO has 60 sec to check, otherwise refs call stands, plus, we have also seen the ref and TMO seeing it differently over comms (highlighting the issues with the game)
Part of the issue with the TMO is the time, the endless replays over and over, looking for a reason to overturn a decision rather than check and get on with the game.
Sure they are there to ensure the right decision is made, but when this detracts from the flow and continuity of the game and fan engagement, then something is wrong.
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@taniwharugby said in Rugby or NFL:
Maybe they should ensure the ref makes a call (eg i think a try was scored) then the TMO has 60 sec to check, otherwise refs call stands, plus, we have also seen the ref and TMO seeing it differently over comms (highlighting the issues with the game)
Part of the issue with the TMO is the time, the endless replays over and over, looking for a reason to overturn a decision rather than check and get on with the game.
Sure they are there to ensure the right decision is made, but when this detracts from the flow and continuity of the game and fan engagement, then something is wrong.
But eventually a TMO will make a mistake (I know they do even now) because they are under time pressure, and the great unwashed that have time to look at multiple replays over and over will become incensed when a call goes against their team.
I have said it before, we deserve what we have now because of all the bleating about refs. And we still do it. One just needs to read any match thread on the Fern to see examples.
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@Crazy-Horse well they need to do something...
I know the game in Europe seems to be thriving, but I wonder if this is due to fans being alot more ok with interventions and the drama of cards due to football?
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@taniwharugby said in Rugby or NFL:
@Crazy-Horse well they need to do something...
I know the game in Europe seems to be thriving, but I wonder if this is due to fans being alot more ok with interventions and the drama of cards due to football?
Totally agree. They need to do something. I favour the captain's challenge. Keep the number of challenges minimal, lose one if they are wrong and retain if right.
I feel the same as the poster who said they have fallen out of love with rugby and only watch on muscle memory. I watch because it's NZ rugby, because I always have, but I am watching a little less each year. Cards have ruined it for me. But I think that horse has bolted along with the TMO.
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@Crazy-Horse for me, club rugby still has that appeal and I still enjoy watching it, the players love it, the refs make mistakes, fans boo and we move on, maybe it is the ability to over analyse at the top level that makes people hold onto the angst over these 50-50 calls.
NPC still has some of the appeal, but is slowly heading down the route, but yeah, re the ABs and super rugby, I dont care anywhere near what I used to, nor do I watch as much...
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still love club rugby...and there are wild calls but all the stuff around the actual game make up for it....when it comes to professional sport i find myself enjoy AFL much more, good crowds, good long comp, games can turn on a dime, professionally run
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For me it’s getting too much like the NRL, where they’re checking every little detail in the lead up to a try to find a reason not to award it.
TMO should not be allowed to intervene in something unless asked, or if it’s “actual” foul play.
The game is not played in super slow motion, if it looks wrong in real time, it’s wrong.
If it looks good in real time, it’s good, move on.
If the ref misses someone offside by the length of a toenail, tough shit, move on.
If they miss an obstruction that you need a 10 slide power point presentation to get to an answer, tough shit, move on.I’m a fan of the captains challenge, which will hopefully pick up any real howlers.
If you’re injured (need a rest) go to the sideline to get checked.
Scrums need to be sped up too.
Let’s just get on with the fucking game.
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Here's my rule change. The level of TMO involvement should depend entirely on the quality of the try.
If you pull off an end-to-end try that goes through 12 pairs of hands then the threshold for TMO intervention is basically homicide. We're certainly not calling it back for a pass that might be one degree forward.
A backline move, or something generally well executed would take some obvious foul play or a blatant knock-on.
But a lineout maul? Sure, have a look. Same with repeated pick-and-go. TMO can basically act like they do now. If you don't like it then play better, more exciting rugby.
Nothing worse than having the emotional high of an amazing try killed by a ticky-tacky TMO intervention. Under this change, you can celebrate with the comfort that the try was so cool that we're basically letting it all slide.
Very easy to enforce and there would be no criticisms or grey areas from anyone. 100% accuracy and satisfaction guaranteed.
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@barbarian ive said similar before too, im on board
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Once upon a time I would either celebrate a try or go "OOOOoooo that's a close one.. we'll have to wait and see" but now I find myself not celebrating what appears to clearly be a try until I've held my breath and the TMO has not intervened.
It takes the fun out of it!!! -
@Kirwan said in Rugby or NFL:
Watching the games last right, with all the interruptions from the 100 or so refs they have now, it felt more like NFL than Rugby.
The search for 100% accuracy and safety in all decisions has completely removed fluidity and flow from the game.
No space, just brutes running into each other.
Certainly not the game for all shapes and sizes anymore.
I have a friend who hasn't really watched rugby since the days of Zinzan. He saw a bit of the French game.
He said now it just a competition of who's the last one to make a mistake. Boring, clinical and predictable.
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Not sure if this has been mentioned but one thing I like about NFL (and basketball) is the value they place on time.
When that try to Fiji was over ruled because the Wallabies winger had stepped out there was no reset of the game clock from the time the winger had stepped out as is the case when a ball is kicked out and the ref blows time off until the lineout is played. So time went on from the time said winger threw the pass infield and the turnover and attack for the try.
Now if they are going to use the TMO for intervention like this, then use it to reset the game clock to the time the player stepped out.
