Rugby or NFL
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The part I heard i didn't like was on the run Berry saying "I think it's saw.... can you check" and it wasn't foul play.
Rugby is too chaotic to be governed like this. I have said it for years. And I have been consistent.
In a game where the difference between a penalty either way is a guess about timing, and something that is legal becomes illegal at a certain point, is impossible to be adjudicated on replay.
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Maybe they should ensure the ref makes a call (eg i think a try was scored) then the TMO has 60 sec to check, otherwise refs call stands, plus, we have also seen the ref and TMO seeing it differently over comms (highlighting the issues with the game)
Part of the issue with the TMO is the time, the endless replays over and over, looking for a reason to overturn a decision rather than check and get on with the game.
Sure they are there to ensure the right decision is made, but when this detracts from the flow and continuity of the game and fan engagement, then something is wrong.
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@taniwharugby said in Rugby or NFL:
Maybe they should ensure the ref makes a call (eg i think a try was scored) then the TMO has 60 sec to check, otherwise refs call stands, plus, we have also seen the ref and TMO seeing it differently over comms (highlighting the issues with the game)
Part of the issue with the TMO is the time, the endless replays over and over, looking for a reason to overturn a decision rather than check and get on with the game.
Sure they are there to ensure the right decision is made, but when this detracts from the flow and continuity of the game and fan engagement, then something is wrong.
But eventually a TMO will make a mistake (I know they do even now) because they are under time pressure, and the great unwashed that have time to look at multiple replays over and over will become incensed when a call goes against their team.
I have said it before, we deserve what we have now because of all the bleating about refs. And we still do it. One just needs to read any match thread on the Fern to see examples.
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@Crazy-Horse well they need to do something...
I know the game in Europe seems to be thriving, but I wonder if this is due to fans being alot more ok with interventions and the drama of cards due to football?
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@taniwharugby said in Rugby or NFL:
@Crazy-Horse well they need to do something...
I know the game in Europe seems to be thriving, but I wonder if this is due to fans being alot more ok with interventions and the drama of cards due to football?
Totally agree. They need to do something. I favour the captain's challenge. Keep the number of challenges minimal, lose one if they are wrong and retain if right.
I feel the same as the poster who said they have fallen out of love with rugby and only watch on muscle memory. I watch because it's NZ rugby, because I always have, but I am watching a little less each year. Cards have ruined it for me. But I think that horse has bolted along with the TMO.
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@Crazy-Horse for me, club rugby still has that appeal and I still enjoy watching it, the players love it, the refs make mistakes, fans boo and we move on, maybe it is the ability to over analyse at the top level that makes people hold onto the angst over these 50-50 calls.
NPC still has some of the appeal, but is slowly heading down the route, but yeah, re the ABs and super rugby, I dont care anywhere near what I used to, nor do I watch as much...
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still love club rugby...and there are wild calls but all the stuff around the actual game make up for it....when it comes to professional sport i find myself enjoy AFL much more, good crowds, good long comp, games can turn on a dime, professionally run
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For me it’s getting too much like the NRL, where they’re checking every little detail in the lead up to a try to find a reason not to award it.
TMO should not be allowed to intervene in something unless asked, or if it’s “actual” foul play.
The game is not played in super slow motion, if it looks wrong in real time, it’s wrong.
If it looks good in real time, it’s good, move on.
If the ref misses someone offside by the length of a toenail, tough shit, move on.
If they miss an obstruction that you need a 10 slide power point presentation to get to an answer, tough shit, move on.I’m a fan of the captains challenge, which will hopefully pick up any real howlers.
If you’re injured (need a rest) go to the sideline to get checked.
Scrums need to be sped up too.
Let’s just get on with the fucking game.
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Here's my rule change. The level of TMO involvement should depend entirely on the quality of the try.
If you pull off an end-to-end try that goes through 12 pairs of hands then the threshold for TMO intervention is basically homicide. We're certainly not calling it back for a pass that might be one degree forward.
A backline move, or something generally well executed would take some obvious foul play or a blatant knock-on.
But a lineout maul? Sure, have a look. Same with repeated pick-and-go. TMO can basically act like they do now. If you don't like it then play better, more exciting rugby.
Nothing worse than having the emotional high of an amazing try killed by a ticky-tacky TMO intervention. Under this change, you can celebrate with the comfort that the try was so cool that we're basically letting it all slide.
Very easy to enforce and there would be no criticisms or grey areas from anyone. 100% accuracy and satisfaction guaranteed.
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@barbarian ive said similar before too, im on board
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Once upon a time I would either celebrate a try or go "OOOOoooo that's a close one.. we'll have to wait and see" but now I find myself not celebrating what appears to clearly be a try until I've held my breath and the TMO has not intervened.
It takes the fun out of it!!! -
@Kirwan said in Rugby or NFL:
Watching the games last right, with all the interruptions from the 100 or so refs they have now, it felt more like NFL than Rugby.
The search for 100% accuracy and safety in all decisions has completely removed fluidity and flow from the game.
No space, just brutes running into each other.
Certainly not the game for all shapes and sizes anymore.
I have a friend who hasn't really watched rugby since the days of Zinzan. He saw a bit of the French game.
He said now it just a competition of who's the last one to make a mistake. Boring, clinical and predictable.
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Not sure if this has been mentioned but one thing I like about NFL (and basketball) is the value they place on time.
When that try to Fiji was over ruled because the Wallabies winger had stepped out there was no reset of the game clock from the time the winger had stepped out as is the case when a ball is kicked out and the ref blows time off until the lineout is played. So time went on from the time said winger threw the pass infield and the turnover and attack for the try.
Now if they are going to use the TMO for intervention like this, then use it to reset the game clock to the time the player stepped out.
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I think everybody is just bored of the TMO as you can't really celebrate a try now until the TMO has cleared it. It used to be woohoo, now it's just woo and then wait 30 seconds to see if he clears it ... he does, but the moment has passed. And thats why we watch sport, for the moments.
Foul play is fine, but the TMO must be 100% sure. Having Williams over rule him saying it was fine in the Tahs/Lions match on the weekend was good, but it means the TMO should never have been involved in the first place. And surely the TMO was only involved due to ambiguity in their role.
The calls on the lineout mauls really got under my skin. They are the sort of thing that the referee is for. Not the TMO. No different to a scrum penalty in my view, and having TMO involved there is a can of worms that will literally destroy the game.
Clear & obvious mistake from the ref, foul play, and two phase maximum to rule on.
The TMO should be actively trying to NOT get involved.
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@MajorRage what's next, TMO ruling on incorrect ruck entry, not behind the last feet, I mean why not, these are in the same league as many other things they seem to be able rule on.
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@canefan said in Rugby or NFL:
@mohikamo said in Rugby or NFL:
very wierd
i think it may have something to do with having been the most rabidly amateur (i.e. conservative) sport on the planet for over a century
and now, seemingly incable of making the "market/commenrcial/product" adjustments
see how even a sport like cricket has changed!
Rugby has always been arrogant. They think their game is the best and that the fans should be grateful
Lol canefan,I personally think the game is best (which is why I follow it so avidly) and I am grateful that I have got it to watch. If I didn't think it was best I would wander off and watch something else, as I am sure some people do.
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@MajorRage said in Rugby or NFL:
The calls on the lineout mauls really got under my skin. They are the sort of thing that the referee is for. Not the TMO.
The player in front at the initial setup of the maul isn't hard to see in real time. At least by the TJ.
But the rule is almost only enforced when a try is scored now.
A bit of a tangent but the balance of rugby would be better if the refs were stricter on the attacking teams in mauls
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I think a good game of rugby is better than a good game of almost any other sport.
BUT....
Scrums drive me stupid, watch a game from the 70' or 80's and a scrum was set, feed, and the ball was out in literally seconds. Why does the ref have to give the pack a quick re-cap of how to scrummag before every scrum, as if neither pack have seen a scrum before.
Also, scrum penalties, I'd get rid of them unless someone shoots someone.
Getting a dominant scrum and your forwards walking over the opposing forwards is reward enough. You have the ball with a dominant platform to play it.And also knock on advantage, if one team knocks on and the other team gets the ball and can cleanly play it from the resulting ruck, then that's it, you have the ball, advantage over. Why wait 20 seconds just to go back and have a scrum in the same place you got the ball 20 seconds ago.
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@WestieFella said in Rugby or NFL:
I think a good game of rugby is better than a good game of almost any other sport.
BUT....
Scrums drive me stupid, watch a game from the 70' or 80's and a scrum was set, feed, and the ball was out in literally seconds. Why does the ref have to give the pack a quick re-cap of how to scrummag before every scrum, as if neither pack have seen a scrum before.
Also, scrum penalties, I'd get rid of them unless someone shoots someone.
Getting a dominant scrum and your forwards walking over the opposing forwards is reward enough. You have the ball with a dominant platform to play it.And also knock on advantage, if one team knocks on and the other team gets the ball and can cleanly play it from the resulting ruck, then that's it, you have the ball, advantage over. Why wait 20 seconds just to go back and have a scrum in the same place you got the ball 20 seconds ago.
Firstly: injuries. There were far too many when it was a free for all and players are bigger and likely to injure opposition caught awkwardly.
Secondly, am pretty sure the rule of thumb is a couple of phases or couple of passes not under pressure. And perhaps a kick not under pressure (re two examples of kicks going out on the full under advantage on the weekend - France judged to have gained advantage, Fiji not got advantage: both correct IMO). Could be wrong about all of that though.
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I think, though, the TMO is better than it was 3-5 years ago. I remember the repeated stoppages, endless replays on the big screen of behind-the-play things, taking 5-10 minutes each time.
And now we are getting better at fixing bad calls in real time. Paul Williams blew a knock-on against the Tahs on Saturday night that clearly came off the Lions (but an understandable error nonetheless). By the time the scrum was set, the TMO had reviewed and seen there was no knock-on and the scrum feed rightfully changed.
I'm happy with that intervention.
