All Blacks v France II
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France 2:
Yeah, if they want Vaii to have time at 6, bring in Patty T.
If it was accommodating Barrett - which is a bit of an issue - then bring in Finau to start, Pat T off the bench.
Similarly, not sure we learn much with Dmac at 15, so if he’s to be the bench man, leave him there and bring in Clarke or Narawa.
That’s a bit of a myth right there. Razor pretty much flagged from early on that he had options to play a lock at 6. Vaa’i was the obvious choice in my view.
Now that Barrett is injured, which happened during the game and not carried in, we need to bring in the next best lock into the 23 plus someone as cover (which may be one of the lumps that was used in training).
I know this stuff is all in the eye of the beholder, but I actually didn’t mind Finau off the bench last weekend. Did a few good things I thought. I’d keep him in that role unless Vaa’i is all of sudden ruled out.
Straight swap, PT to captain from lock.
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@Bones said in All Blacks v France 2:
I will find it very frustrating if there's anything but last week's group with injury changes.
3rd test, have at it.
Yep. The only change I'd make is start Ratima with Roigard being used for his running when the French are tiring. Maybe even leave that experiment to the 3rd
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@gt12 said in All Blacks v France 2:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France 2:
Yeah, if they want Vaii to have time at 6, bring in Patty T.
If it was accommodating Barrett - which is a bit of an issue - then bring in Finau to start, Pat T off the bench.
Similarly, not sure we learn much with Dmac at 15, so if he’s to be the bench man, leave him there and bring in Clarke or Narawa.
That’s a bit of a myth right there. Razor pretty much flagged from early on that he had options to play a lock at 6. Vaa’i was the obvious choice in my view.
Now that Barrett is injured, which happened during the game and not carried in, we need to bring in the next best lock into the 23 plus someone as cover (which may be one of the lumps that was used in training).
I know this stuff is all in the eye of the beholder, but I actually didn’t mind Finau off the bench last weekend. Did a few good things I thought. I’d keep him in that role unless Vaa’i is all of sudden ruled out.
If Vaii gets moved this week, we've at least potentially got an issue where he wants to play three locks to protect a captain who may not justify their position.
I'm getting a sense of deja vu.
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@brodean said in All Blacks v France 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France 2:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France 2:
Yeah, if they want Vaii to have time at 6, bring in Patty T.
If it was accommodating Barrett - which is a bit of an issue - then bring in Finau to start, Pat T off the bench.
Similarly, not sure we learn much with Dmac at 15, so if he’s to be the bench man, leave him there and bring in Clarke or Narawa.
That’s a bit of a myth right there. Razor pretty much flagged from early on that he had options to play a lock at 6. Vaa’i was the obvious choice in my view.
Now that Barrett is injured, which happened during the game and not carried in, we need to bring in the next best lock into the 23 plus someone as cover (which may be one of the lumps that was used in training).
I know this stuff is all in the eye of the beholder, but I actually didn’t mind Finau off the bench last weekend. Did a few good things I thought. I’d keep him in that role unless Vaa’i is all of sudden ruled out.
If Vaii gets moved this week, we've at least potentially got an issue where he wants to play three locks to protect a captain who may not justify their position.
I'm getting a sense of deja vu.
Again?
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v France 2:
I'm expecting us to smash them in this test. The scoreline last test could have easily been closer to 50 - 15 if we tightened up our defense and managed to finish a couple of those disallowed tries. Factor in the Wellington weather and I'm expecting something around 40 - 10, could get ugly for France if we really click though.
you think Wellington weather will help us rather than them given we are the ones with the experimental and inaccurate-already kicking?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v France 2:
@brodean said in All Blacks v France 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France 2:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France 2:
Yeah, if they want Vaii to have time at 6, bring in Patty T.
If it was accommodating Barrett - which is a bit of an issue - then bring in Finau to start, Pat T off the bench.
Similarly, not sure we learn much with Dmac at 15, so if he’s to be the bench man, leave him there and bring in Clarke or Narawa.
That’s a bit of a myth right there. Razor pretty much flagged from early on that he had options to play a lock at 6. Vaa’i was the obvious choice in my view.
Now that Barrett is injured, which happened during the game and not carried in, we need to bring in the next best lock into the 23 plus someone as cover (which may be one of the lumps that was used in training).
I know this stuff is all in the eye of the beholder, but I actually didn’t mind Finau off the bench last weekend. Did a few good things I thought. I’d keep him in that role unless Vaa’i is all of sudden ruled out.
If Vaii gets moved this week, we've at least potentially got an issue where he wants to play three locks to protect a captain who may not justify their position.
I'm getting a sense of deja vu.
Again?
All over again
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Expect up to 10 changes to the French side.
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@ploughboy said in All Blacks v France 2:
PT to lock
Clarke to 11
RI to 14
TT to 22
RL to 23What you would like to see or some inside oil?
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France 2:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v France 2:
I'm expecting us to smash them in this test. The scoreline last test could have easily been closer to 50 - 15 if we tightened up our defense and managed to finish a couple of those disallowed tries. Factor in the Wellington weather and I'm expecting something around 40 - 10, could get ugly for France if we really click though.
you think Wellington weather will help us rather than them given we are the ones with the experimental and inaccurate-already kicking?
I’ll let you know when I’m at the stadium
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France 2:
I will find it very frustrating if there's anything but last week's group with injury changes.
3rd test, have at it.
Yep. The only change I'd make is start Ratima with Roigard being used for his running when the French are tiring. Maybe even leave that experiment to the 3rd
I don’t mind this tactic, provided Roigard is on the field for the whole second half. It feels like a potentially better way to use the two halfbacks. Let Roigard go up against somewhat fatigued opposition for 40 minutes or even give him a short burst before half time.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France 2:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v France 2:
I'm expecting us to smash them in this test. The scoreline last test could have easily been closer to 50 - 15 if we tightened up our defense and managed to finish a couple of those disallowed tries. Factor in the Wellington weather and I'm expecting something around 40 - 10, could get ugly for France if we really click though.
you think Wellington weather will help us rather than them given we are the ones with the experimental and inaccurate-already kicking?
No I took 10 points off our score and 5 off theirs to cater for the howling wind etc. Though thinking more on it, Wellington has been an awful ground for the ABs of late...
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@Landers92 said in All Blacks v France 2:
There’s also a slim chance that Tuipulotu comes in for Barrett and starts, Vai’i stays at 6 and Ah Koi is used off the bench in jersey 19, he has been in camp as injury cover the whole time. Would be between Finau or Kirifi who drops out then. Slim chance, but still another option they could use is Jacobson isn’t fit.
I can't understand why Josh Behree isn't the injury cover with Darry and Lord unavailable, he was a clear standout in Super Rugby and is only 23 younger than Lord and Ah Kuoi.
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@brodean said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v France 2:
@MN5 said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France 2:
I will find it very frustrating if there's anything but last week's group with injury changes.
3rd test, have at it.
Actually, I'd be happy to see Vaai go back to lock if Ah Kuoi goes to blindside, but it wouldn't make much sense when you can just throw PT in at lock.
No. Chopping and changing won't do him any good. Let's keep him at six. He's finally become a force at test level and there aren't exactly other options beating down the door at blindside.
i feel like im being gaslit...there seems to be a continuous discussion about things like 12 and 13 are wildly different positions and very few people can learn both....but also lets move people around from one game to another to make sure theyre versatile
They are a bit different. Some players have the physical attributes, skills and temperament to play both and some don't. I don't think there are many players who are equally good at both. Generally a player will be better at 12 or better at 13.
Agree, and I’ll add that it sometimes comes down to the combination if it’s going to work. For example ALB appears to be a better 12 now however I reckon his best midfield footy was when he played 13 and SBW and Crotty was at 12.
Slight tangent (team isn’t named till Thursday so need a few fillers), the ABs have used a few different players over the past couple of decades that have started at both 12 and also 13. Here’s a few interesting facts since 2000:
- in the 323 matches the ABs have played, they have started 26 different players at 2nd 5 and have started 26 different players at centre
- there have been 12 players in that period that have started a match at 12 and at 13 (Nonu, SBW, Umaga, Crotty, ALB, McAlister, Goodhue, Fekitoa, Toeava, Ellison, Mark Robinson, Ieremia)
- Ryan Crotty has the most even split of starts with 20 at 2nd 5 and 16 at centre
- four of the 12 players have only 1 match start at 12 (Toeava, Ellison, Robinson, Ieremia)
- one of the 12 players started only 1 match at 13 (SBW)
- other than Crotty, only two other players (Nonu, ALB) have started double-digit tests in both positions
- from those 12 players there have been 19 different combinations where both players in the combination have started at both 12 and 13
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France 2:
@brodean said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v France 2:
@MN5 said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France 2:
I will find it very frustrating if there's anything but last week's group with injury changes.
3rd test, have at it.
Actually, I'd be happy to see Vaai go back to lock if Ah Kuoi goes to blindside, but it wouldn't make much sense when you can just throw PT in at lock.
No. Chopping and changing won't do him any good. Let's keep him at six. He's finally become a force at test level and there aren't exactly other options beating down the door at blindside.
i feel like im being gaslit...there seems to be a continuous discussion about things like 12 and 13 are wildly different positions and very few people can learn both....but also lets move people around from one game to another to make sure theyre versatile
They are a bit different. Some players have the physical attributes, skills and temperament to play both and some don't. I don't think there are many players who are equally good at both. Generally a player will be better at 12 or better at 13.
Agree, and I’ll add that it sometimes comes down to the combination if it’s going to work. For example ALB appears to be a better 12 now however I reckon his best midfield footy was when he played 13 and SBW and Crotty was at 12.
Slight tangent (team isn’t named till Thursday so need a few fillers), the ABs have used a few different players over the past couple of decades that have started at both 12 and also 13. Here’s a few interesting facts since 2000:
- in the 323 matches the ABs have played, they have started 26 different players at 2nd 5 and have started 26 different players at centre
- there have been 12 players in that period that have started a match at 12 and at 13 (Nonu, SBW, Umaga, Crotty, ALB, McAlister, Goodhue, Fekitoa, Toeava, Ellison, Mark Robinson, Ieremia)
- Ryan Crotty has the most even split of starts with 20 at 2nd 5 and 16 at centre
- four of the 12 players have only 1 match start at 12 (Toeava, Ellison, Robinson, Ieremia)
- one of the 12 players started only 1 match at 13 (SBW)
- other than Crotty, only two other players (Nonu, ALB) have started double-digit tests in both positions
- from those 12 players there have been 19 different combinations where both players in the combination have started at both 12 and 13
Interesting stats.
Would disagree with the bolded comment on ALB, think he's still a much better 13 than 12 now, he just hasn't had any extended opportunities to play outside a well-suited 12 for the All Blacks in a long time - almost always Havili (two games outside Barrett, one against Argentina last year and one against Uruguay in 2023).
Played all his rugby for the Chiefs over the past two years at 13, outside both Rameka Poihipi and Quinn Tupaea (two players both better suited to 12 than 13, to be fair).
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@gt12 said in All Blacks v France 2:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France 2:
Yeah, if they want Vaii to have time at 6, bring in Patty T.
If it was accommodating Barrett - which is a bit of an issue - then bring in Finau to start, Pat T off the bench.
Similarly, not sure we learn much with Dmac at 15, so if he’s to be the bench man, leave him there and bring in Clarke or Narawa.
That’s a bit of a myth right there. Razor pretty much flagged from early on that he had options to play a lock at 6. Vaa’i was the obvious choice in my view.
Now that Barrett is injured, which happened during the game and not carried in, we need to bring in the next best lock into the 23 plus someone as cover (which may be one of the lumps that was used in training).
I know this stuff is all in the eye of the beholder, but I actually didn’t mind Finau off the bench last weekend. Did a few good things I thought. I’d keep him in that role unless Vaa’i is all of sudden ruled out.
That's just it though isn't it, did he flag that because he knows that Vaii was playing better?
If Vaii gets moved this week, we've at least potentially got an issue where he wants to play three locks to protect a captain who may not justify their position.
I don’t see it like that. There’s two things: we need more size in our loose trio and we haven’t found the answer at 6.
So we have a player that has size and is a better option at 6 (in their eyes) than Finau and whoever else is there or tried last year. Of the 4 locks selected Vaa’i was the last to start a test at 6.
Barrett was below his best last season but hardly terrible and was very good against Ireland. And his form in the last couple of regular season games he played and finals was where I’d expect going into a test season.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France 2:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France 2:
Yeah, if they want Vaii to have time at 6, bring in Patty T.
If it was accommodating Barrett - which is a bit of an issue - then bring in Finau to start, Pat T off the bench.
Similarly, not sure we learn much with Dmac at 15, so if he’s to be the bench man, leave him there and bring in Clarke or Narawa.
That’s a bit of a myth right there. Razor pretty much flagged from early on that he had options to play a lock at 6. Vaa’i was the obvious choice in my view.
Now that Barrett is injured, which happened during the game and not carried in, we need to bring in the next best lock into the 23 plus someone as cover (which may be one of the lumps that was used in training).
I know this stuff is all in the eye of the beholder, but I actually didn’t mind Finau off the bench last weekend. Did a few good things I thought. I’d keep him in that role unless Vaa’i is all of sudden ruled out.
That's just it though isn't it, did he flag that because he knows that Vaii was playing better?
If Vaii gets moved this week, we've at least potentially got an issue where he wants to play three locks to protect a captain who may not justify their position.
I don’t see it like that. There’s two things: we need more size in our loose trio and we haven’t found the answer at 6.
So we have a player that has size and is a better option at 6 (in their eyes) than Finau and whoever else is there or tried last year. Of the 4 locks selected Vaa’i was the last to start a test at 6.
Barrett was below his best last season but hardly terrible and was very good against Ireland. And his form in the last couple of regular season games he played and finals was where I’d expect going into a test season.
Fair, and I'm on record as arguing that Vaii at 6 is worth trying for both of those reasons.
I've argued for a while that the Chiefs were in trouble with undersized locks when we played Vaii and Ah Kuio earlier in their careers (BBBR was on sabbatical I think) and then Lord was constantly injured.
So, if they are genuinely trying Vaii at 6, they should keep him there.
But if they move him, it's more shuffling for no strategic reason and I'll have questions.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v France 2:
@ploughboy said in All Blacks v France 2:
PT to lock
Clarke to 11
RI to 14
TT to 22
RL to 23What you would like to see or some inside oil?
my prediction
