All Blacks v France II
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@brodean said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v France 2:
@MN5 said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France 2:
I will find it very frustrating if there's anything but last week's group with injury changes.
3rd test, have at it.
Actually, I'd be happy to see Vaai go back to lock if Ah Kuoi goes to blindside, but it wouldn't make much sense when you can just throw PT in at lock.
No. Chopping and changing won't do him any good. Let's keep him at six. He's finally become a force at test level and there aren't exactly other options beating down the door at blindside.
i feel like im being gaslit...there seems to be a continuous discussion about things like 12 and 13 are wildly different positions and very few people can learn both....but also lets move people around from one game to another to make sure theyre versatile
They are a bit different. Some players have the physical attributes, skills and temperament to play both and some don't. I don't think there are many players who are equally good at both. Generally a player will be better at 12 or better at 13.
Agree, and I’ll add that it sometimes comes down to the combination if it’s going to work. For example ALB appears to be a better 12 now however I reckon his best midfield footy was when he played 13 and SBW and Crotty was at 12.
Slight tangent (team isn’t named till Thursday so need a few fillers), the ABs have used a few different players over the past couple of decades that have started at both 12 and also 13. Here’s a few interesting facts since 2000:
- in the 323 matches the ABs have played, they have started 26 different players at 2nd 5 and have started 26 different players at centre
- there have been 12 players in that period that have started a match at 12 and at 13 (Nonu, SBW, Umaga, Crotty, ALB, McAlister, Goodhue, Fekitoa, Toeava, Ellison, Mark Robinson, Ieremia)
- Ryan Crotty has the most even split of starts with 20 at 2nd 5 and 16 at centre
- four of the 12 players have only 1 match start at 12 (Toeava, Ellison, Robinson, Ieremia)
- one of the 12 players started only 1 match at 13 (SBW)
- other than Crotty, only two other players (Nonu, ALB) have started double-digit tests in both positions
- from those 12 players there have been 19 different combinations where both players in the combination have started at both 12 and 13
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France 2:
@brodean said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v France 2:
@MN5 said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Bones said in All Blacks v France 2:
I will find it very frustrating if there's anything but last week's group with injury changes.
3rd test, have at it.
Actually, I'd be happy to see Vaai go back to lock if Ah Kuoi goes to blindside, but it wouldn't make much sense when you can just throw PT in at lock.
No. Chopping and changing won't do him any good. Let's keep him at six. He's finally become a force at test level and there aren't exactly other options beating down the door at blindside.
i feel like im being gaslit...there seems to be a continuous discussion about things like 12 and 13 are wildly different positions and very few people can learn both....but also lets move people around from one game to another to make sure theyre versatile
They are a bit different. Some players have the physical attributes, skills and temperament to play both and some don't. I don't think there are many players who are equally good at both. Generally a player will be better at 12 or better at 13.
Agree, and I’ll add that it sometimes comes down to the combination if it’s going to work. For example ALB appears to be a better 12 now however I reckon his best midfield footy was when he played 13 and SBW and Crotty was at 12.
Slight tangent (team isn’t named till Thursday so need a few fillers), the ABs have used a few different players over the past couple of decades that have started at both 12 and also 13. Here’s a few interesting facts since 2000:
- in the 323 matches the ABs have played, they have started 26 different players at 2nd 5 and have started 26 different players at centre
- there have been 12 players in that period that have started a match at 12 and at 13 (Nonu, SBW, Umaga, Crotty, ALB, McAlister, Goodhue, Fekitoa, Toeava, Ellison, Mark Robinson, Ieremia)
- Ryan Crotty has the most even split of starts with 20 at 2nd 5 and 16 at centre
- four of the 12 players have only 1 match start at 12 (Toeava, Ellison, Robinson, Ieremia)
- one of the 12 players started only 1 match at 13 (SBW)
- other than Crotty, only two other players (Nonu, ALB) have started double-digit tests in both positions
- from those 12 players there have been 19 different combinations where both players in the combination have started at both 12 and 13
Interesting stats.
Would disagree with the bolded comment on ALB, think he's still a much better 13 than 12 now, he just hasn't had any extended opportunities to play outside a well-suited 12 for the All Blacks in a long time - almost always Havili (two games outside Barrett, one against Argentina last year and one against Uruguay in 2023).
Played all his rugby for the Chiefs over the past two years at 13, outside both Rameka Poihipi and Quinn Tupaea (two players both better suited to 12 than 13, to be fair).
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@Landers92 said in All Blacks v France 2:
There’s also a slim chance that Tuipulotu comes in for Barrett and starts, Vai’i stays at 6 and Ah Koi is used off the bench in jersey 19, he has been in camp as injury cover the whole time. Would be between Finau or Kirifi who drops out then. Slim chance, but still another option they could use is Jacobson isn’t fit.
I can't understand why Josh Behree isn't the injury cover with Darry and Lord unavailable, he was a clear standout in Super Rugby and is only 23 younger than Lord and Ah Kuoi.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France 2:
Yeah, if they want Vaii to have time at 6, bring in Patty T.
If it was accommodating Barrett - which is a bit of an issue - then bring in Finau to start, Pat T off the bench.
Similarly, not sure we learn much with Dmac at 15, so if he’s to be the bench man, leave him there and bring in Clarke or Narawa.
That’s a bit of a myth right there. Razor pretty much flagged from early on that he had options to play a lock at 6. Vaa’i was the obvious choice in my view.
Now that Barrett is injured, which happened during the game and not carried in, we need to bring in the next best lock into the 23 plus someone as cover (which may be one of the lumps that was used in training).
I know this stuff is all in the eye of the beholder, but I actually didn’t mind Finau off the bench last weekend. Did a few good things I thought. I’d keep him in that role unless Vaa’i is all of sudden ruled out.
That's just it though isn't it, did he flag that because he knows that Vaii was playing better?
If Vaii gets moved this week, we've at least potentially got an issue where he wants to play three locks to protect a captain who may not justify their position.
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France 2:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France 2:
Yeah, if they want Vaii to have time at 6, bring in Patty T.
If it was accommodating Barrett - which is a bit of an issue - then bring in Finau to start, Pat T off the bench.
Similarly, not sure we learn much with Dmac at 15, so if he’s to be the bench man, leave him there and bring in Clarke or Narawa.
That’s a bit of a myth right there. Razor pretty much flagged from early on that he had options to play a lock at 6. Vaa’i was the obvious choice in my view.
Now that Barrett is injured, which happened during the game and not carried in, we need to bring in the next best lock into the 23 plus someone as cover (which may be one of the lumps that was used in training).
I know this stuff is all in the eye of the beholder, but I actually didn’t mind Finau off the bench last weekend. Did a few good things I thought. I’d keep him in that role unless Vaa’i is all of sudden ruled out.
That's just it though isn't it, did he flag that because he knows that Vaii was playing better?
If Vaii gets moved this week, we've at least potentially got an issue where he wants to play three locks to protect a captain who may not justify their position.
I don’t see it like that. There’s two things: we need more size in our loose trio and we haven’t found the answer at 6.
So we have a player that has size and is a better option at 6 (in their eyes) than Finau and whoever else is there or tried last year. Of the 4 locks selected Vaa’i was the last to start a test at 6.
Barrett was below his best last season but hardly terrible and was very good against Ireland. And his form in the last couple of regular season games he played and finals was where I’d expect going into a test season.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks v France 2:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France 2:
Yeah, if they want Vaii to have time at 6, bring in Patty T.
If it was accommodating Barrett - which is a bit of an issue - then bring in Finau to start, Pat T off the bench.
Similarly, not sure we learn much with Dmac at 15, so if he’s to be the bench man, leave him there and bring in Clarke or Narawa.
That’s a bit of a myth right there. Razor pretty much flagged from early on that he had options to play a lock at 6. Vaa’i was the obvious choice in my view.
Now that Barrett is injured, which happened during the game and not carried in, we need to bring in the next best lock into the 23 plus someone as cover (which may be one of the lumps that was used in training).
I know this stuff is all in the eye of the beholder, but I actually didn’t mind Finau off the bench last weekend. Did a few good things I thought. I’d keep him in that role unless Vaa’i is all of sudden ruled out.
That's just it though isn't it, did he flag that because he knows that Vaii was playing better?
If Vaii gets moved this week, we've at least potentially got an issue where he wants to play three locks to protect a captain who may not justify their position.
I don’t see it like that. There’s two things: we need more size in our loose trio and we haven’t found the answer at 6.
So we have a player that has size and is a better option at 6 (in their eyes) than Finau and whoever else is there or tried last year. Of the 4 locks selected Vaa’i was the last to start a test at 6.
Barrett was below his best last season but hardly terrible and was very good against Ireland. And his form in the last couple of regular season games he played and finals was where I’d expect going into a test season.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France 2:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v France 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v France 2:
Yeah, if they want Vaii to have time at 6, bring in Patty T.
If it was accommodating Barrett - which is a bit of an issue - then bring in Finau to start, Pat T off the bench.
Similarly, not sure we learn much with Dmac at 15, so if he’s to be the bench man, leave him there and bring in Clarke or Narawa.
That’s a bit of a myth right there. Razor pretty much flagged from early on that he had options to play a lock at 6. Vaa’i was the obvious choice in my view.
Now that Barrett is injured, which happened during the game and not carried in, we need to bring in the next best lock into the 23 plus someone as cover (which may be one of the lumps that was used in training).
I know this stuff is all in the eye of the beholder, but I actually didn’t mind Finau off the bench last weekend. Did a few good things I thought. I’d keep him in that role unless Vaa’i is all of sudden ruled out.
That's just it though isn't it, did he flag that because he knows that Vaii was playing better?
If Vaii gets moved this week, we've at least potentially got an issue where he wants to play three locks to protect a captain who may not justify their position.
I don’t see it like that. There’s two things: we need more size in our loose trio and we haven’t found the answer at 6.
So we have a player that has size and is a better option at 6 (in their eyes) than Finau and whoever else is there or tried last year. Of the 4 locks selected Vaa’i was the last to start a test at 6.
Barrett was below his best last season but hardly terrible and was very good against Ireland. And his form in the last couple of regular season games he played and finals was where I’d expect going into a test season.
Fair, and I'm on record as arguing that Vaii at 6 is worth trying for both of those reasons.
I've argued for a while that the Chiefs were in trouble with undersized locks when we played Vaii and Ah Kuio earlier in their careers (BBBR was on sabbatical I think) and then Lord was constantly injured.
So, if they are genuinely trying Vaii at 6, they should keep him there.
But if they move him, it's more shuffling for no strategic reason and I'll have questions.
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@ploughboy said in All Blacks v France 2:
PT to lock
Clarke to 11
RI to 14
TT to 22
RL to 23What you would like to see or some inside oil?
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v France 2:
@ploughboy said in All Blacks v France 2:
PT to lock
Clarke to 11
RI to 14
TT to 22
RL to 23What you would like to see or some inside oil?
my prediction
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@gt12 yeah, they've got a lock in Holland now that is built for test footy, and boy do we need his size. That added to Vaa'i completely outplaying Barrett last year has put them in a bit of a spot re: the three. Dropping Vaa'i when he's really come of age at test level would be crazy, and they can't drop their captain, but one of the shorter locks has to make way. The problems at 6 have given them a bit of an out so to speak, but it's dependent on Vaa'i making it work there, which is not that fair on him. If Vaa'i can make the transition from playing like a lock to more of a 6 then I can obviously see the big upside to that, but it's a risk.
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v France 2:
@gt12 yeah, they've got a lock in Holland now that is built for test footy, and boy do we need his size. That added to Vaa'i completely outplaying Barrett last year has put them in a bit of a spot re: the three. Dropping Vaa'i when he's really come of age at test level would be crazy, and they can't drop their captain, but one of the shorter locks has to make way. The problems at 6 have given them a bit of an out so to speak, but it's dependent on Vaa'i making it work there, which is not that fair on him. If Vaa'i can make the transition from playing like a lock to more of a 6 then I can obviously see the big upside to that, but it's a risk.
If ardie looks impressive as captain in the rest of this series it could add a bit of spice to all this
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@Landers92 said in All Blacks v France 2:
There’s also a slim chance that Tuipulotu comes in for Barrett and starts, Vai’i stays at 6 and Ah Koi is used off the bench in jersey 19, he has been in camp as injury cover the whole time. Would be between Finau or Kirifi who drops out then. Slim chance, but still another option they could use is Jacobson isn’t fit.
I can't understand why Josh Behree isn't the injury cover with Darry and Lord unavailable, he was a clear standout in Super Rugby and is only 23 younger than Lord and Ah Kuoi.
@fghg said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks v France 2:
There’s also a slim chance that Tuipulotu comes in for Barrett and starts, Vai’i stays at 6 and Ah Koi is used off the bench in jersey 19, he has been in camp as injury cover the whole time. Would be between Finau or Kirifi who drops out then. Slim chance, but still another option they could use is Jacobson isn’t fit.
I can't understand why Josh Behree isn't the injury cover with Darry and Lord unavailable, he was a clear standout in Super Rugby and is only 23 younger than Lord and Ah Kuoi.
He plays for the Blues.
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@fghg said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks v France 2:
There’s also a slim chance that Tuipulotu comes in for Barrett and starts, Vai’i stays at 6 and Ah Koi is used off the bench in jersey 19, he has been in camp as injury cover the whole time. Would be between Finau or Kirifi who drops out then. Slim chance, but still another option they could use is Jacobson isn’t fit.
I can't understand why Josh Behree isn't the injury cover with Darry and Lord unavailable, he was a clear standout in Super Rugby and is only 23 younger than Lord and Ah Kuoi.
He plays for the Blues.
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks v France 2:
@fghg said in All Blacks v France 2:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks v France 2:
There’s also a slim chance that Tuipulotu comes in for Barrett and starts, Vai’i stays at 6 and Ah Koi is used off the bench in jersey 19, he has been in camp as injury cover the whole time. Would be between Finau or Kirifi who drops out then. Slim chance, but still another option they could use is Jacobson isn’t fit.
I can't understand why Josh Behree isn't the injury cover with Darry and Lord unavailable, he was a clear standout in Super Rugby and is only 23 younger than Lord and Ah Kuoi.
He plays for the Blues.
They already got Ah Khuoi on the sqaud as lock cover.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v France 2:
@gt12 yeah, they've got a lock in Holland now that is built for test footy, and boy do we need his size. That added to Vaa'i completely outplaying Barrett last year has put them in a bit of a spot re: the three. Dropping Vaa'i when he's really come of age at test level would be crazy, and they can't drop their captain, but one of the shorter locks has to make way. The problems at 6 have given them a bit of an out so to speak, but it's dependent on Vaa'i making it work there, which is not that fair on him. If Vaa'i can make the transition from playing like a lock to more of a 6 then I can obviously see the big upside to that, but it's a risk.
If ardie looks impressive as captain in the rest of this series it could add a bit of spice to all this
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v France 2:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v France 2:
@gt12 yeah, they've got a lock in Holland now that is built for test footy, and boy do we need his size. That added to Vaa'i completely outplaying Barrett last year has put them in a bit of a spot re: the three. Dropping Vaa'i when he's really come of age at test level would be crazy, and they can't drop their captain, but one of the shorter locks has to make way. The problems at 6 have given them a bit of an out so to speak, but it's dependent on Vaa'i making it work there, which is not that fair on him. If Vaa'i can make the transition from playing like a lock to more of a 6 then I can obviously see the big upside to that, but it's a risk.
If ardie looks impressive as captain in the rest of this series it could add a bit of spice to all this
Well Vaai was more effective at 6 last game than a lot of the 6s we have had over the past 2-3 years.
He's becoming a first rate player -
A bit of discussion earlier in the thread about the ref, but it really should be about who the TMO is. He makes the actual big calls after all.
As an aside Ridley was the ref when our U20s were beaten by Wales in 2019. Some of the newer ABs will remember him fondly I’m sure. The TMO is Cronan, and the FPRO is our mate Damon. It was bad when Jonkers was “watching”* but it seems that things won’t improve.
*read “interfering”
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@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v France 2:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v France 2:
@gt12 yeah, they've got a lock in Holland now that is built for test footy, and boy do we need his size. That added to Vaa'i completely outplaying Barrett last year has put them in a bit of a spot re: the three. Dropping Vaa'i when he's really come of age at test level would be crazy, and they can't drop their captain, but one of the shorter locks has to make way. The problems at 6 have given them a bit of an out so to speak, but it's dependent on Vaa'i making it work there, which is not that fair on him. If Vaa'i can make the transition from playing like a lock to more of a 6 then I can obviously see the big upside to that, but it's a risk.
If ardie looks impressive as captain in the rest of this series it could add a bit of spice to all this
Well Vaai was more effective at 6 last game than a lot of the 6s we have had over the past 2-3 years.
He's becoming a first rate player@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v France 2:
@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks v France 2:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v France 2:
@gt12 yeah, they've got a lock in Holland now that is built for test footy, and boy do we need his size. That added to Vaa'i completely outplaying Barrett last year has put them in a bit of a spot re: the three. Dropping Vaa'i when he's really come of age at test level would be crazy, and they can't drop their captain, but one of the shorter locks has to make way. The problems at 6 have given them a bit of an out so to speak, but it's dependent on Vaa'i making it work there, which is not that fair on him. If Vaa'i can make the transition from playing like a lock to more of a 6 then I can obviously see the big upside to that, but it's a risk.
If ardie looks impressive as captain in the rest of this series it could add a bit of spice to all this
Well Vaai was more effective at 6 last game than a lot of the 6s we have had over the past 2-3 years.
He's becoming a first rate playerCome on now, he wasn't all that good and the opposition were mediocre. He's become our best lock, but the jury is still out at 6.
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Sorry I couldn’t get the back line for last week. Made up for it this week and getting Test 2’s nice and early.
- C. Roigard
- B. Barrett
- C. Clarke
- J. Barrett
- B. Proctor
- R. Ioane
- W. Jordan
Bench
21. C. Ratima
22. T. Tavatavanawai
23. D. McKenzie -
Sorry I couldn’t get the back line for last week. Made up for it this week and getting Test 2’s nice and early.
- C. Roigard
- B. Barrett
- C. Clarke
- J. Barrett
- B. Proctor
- R. Ioane
- W. Jordan
Bench
21. C. Ratima
22. T. Tavatavanawai
23. D. McKenzie@Landers92 said in All Blacks v France 2:
Sorry I couldn’t get the back line for last week. Made up for it this week and getting Test 2’s nice and early.
- C. Roigard
- B. Barrett
- C. Clarke
- J. Barrett
- B. Proctor
- R. Ioane
- W. Jordan
Bench
21. C. Ratima
22. T. Tavatavanawai
23. D. McKenzienot huge changes and obvious injury based so im ok with it, pity Big Jim couldnt play last week in dunedin
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Proctor and Ioane suck fat donkey dicks in test 1, but get to play again while the form midfielder of Super Rugby gets rissolled despite not putting a foot wrong when he got a chance.
These selectors are as cooked as they sound
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Proctor and Ioane suck fat donkey dicks in test 1, but get to play again while the form midfielder of Super Rugby gets rissolled despite not putting a foot wrong when he got a chance.
These selectors are as cooked as they sound
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France 2:
Proctor and Ioane suck fat donkey dicks in test 1, but get to play again while the form midfielder of Super Rugby gets rissolled despite not putting a foot wrong when he got a chance.
These selectors are as cooked as they sound
I love a Chiefs fan rant as much as the next person who isn't a Chiefs fan but you have 3 quality 12s there and quite frankly they can't drop or bench Jordie after last week's effort, he was darn good.
So rotating QT and big Jim isn't that huge an insult, QT may play 13 but they probably see him as a 12. And they need to give Proctor another chance. -
@george33 said in All Blacks v France 2:
Norris starting .
I suspect they're gonna try to run French forwards off their feet.
I just hope they don't kick/throw away too much ball to those French backs. -
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France 2:
Proctor and Ioane suck fat donkey dicks in test 1, but get to play again while the form midfielder of Super Rugby gets rissolled despite not putting a foot wrong when he got a chance.
These selectors are as cooked as they sound
I love a Chiefs fan rant as much as the next person who isn't a Chiefs fan but you have 3 quality 12s there and quite frankly they can't drop or bench Jordie after last week's effort, he was darn good.
So rotating QT and big Jim isn't that huge an insult, QT may play 13 but they probably see him as a 12. And they need to give Proctor another chance.@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v France 2:
And they need to give Proctor another chance.
why? further proof this is not a high performance unit.
the old ideals are dead. RIP.
