All Blacks v Argentina II
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Vaa'i missed a number of tackles, and had an ineffectual game. He's a very good lock, and played well there in Super Rugby. They are trying to turn him into a Courtney Lawes style 6, I guess. Worth persisting with, or move him back to lock (where he should start)?
Defence was poor in this game. All loose forwards being played out of position doesn't help.
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@Tim said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Vaa'i missed a number of tackles, and had an ineffectual game. He's a very good lock, and played well there in Super Rugby. They are trying to turn him into a Courtney Lawes style player, I guess. Worth persisting with, or move him back to lock (where he should start)?
Move him back to lock, have an actual 6 play 6, and 8 play 8, and a 7 play 7. It’s not rocket science.
Ideally, should hell freeze over, I’d have;
- Williams
- Taylor
- Newell
- Va’ai
- Holland
- Parker
- Savea or Lakai
- Sititi
- The local u12 b team reserve half back
- McKenzie
- Carter
- Tupea
- Proctor
- Jordan
- J Barrett
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@Tim said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Vaa'i missed a number of tackles, and had an ineffectual game. He's a very good lock, and played well there in Super Rugby. They are trying to turn him into a Courtney Lawes style player, I guess. Worth persisting with, or move him back to lock (where he should start)?
He is early in his development as a 6. He has had good games, but got shut down in this one. Parker was v good and is maybe the long term answer at 6. ABs need two good options at 6 and look like they finally have them.
I expect to see Parker at 6 against Boks. If Savea and Sititi are starters, will Parker play at 6 or off the bench with Va’ai starting? If Parker starts, Holland is a starter in the second row, which leaves a big decision about S Barrett - starter with Va’ai (better player and in better form) on the bench or S Barrett on the bench which opens up the captaincy question?
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@Frank said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
A bit more anger and a bit less hurt feelings from Razor would be comforting to see.
He looked a bit shell-shocked and lost, to be honest.
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Losing each aerial contest cost the All Blacks the game, IMO. The back three were particularly poor in this respect as they could not catch a single kick for the whole game. This gave the Argies not only possession but also decisive momentum against opponents on the back foot. This was hard for the forwards to contest in the rucks as they always had to run backwards.
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If changes have to be made against the Springboks, then the whole back three should be completely reshuffled. Clarke (if fit) and Jordan on the wings, with Ruben Love at fullback as he is impressive at catching high balls, thanks to the perfect timing of his jump.
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One thing I will say in our defense, is that after the ref correctly carded our players for cynical play without warning us first, he then allowed Argentina to commit FOUR cynical penalties in a row on their own line without a card in the lead up to our last try. If he was consistent and carded an Argentinian at that point we probably win this match despite how poorly we played for large periods.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Something rotten in the selecting, coaching, and preparation.
Farming out selection to each assistant is a pussy head coach move. Man up Razor, this is your team.
This idea of selection by each assistant only works if the team has a clear approach to play that is agreed upon and acted upon from top to bottom. This team does not have that.
Change is needed - if it isn' players, sack some coaches. If Hansen is the main man in the backs, turn them all over to him and hold him responsible; equally the same goes for Holland. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, as they say, and it tastes like shit.
You've got guys playing significantly worse in the Black jersey than they were a month ago in Super (or European) rugby. That's on coaching and preparation and I doubt that these guys can figure out why because they dumped the previous admin on mass, so there is little institutional knowledge to provide guidance on where things are going wrong.
Assuming that a coach won't get sacked, then the coaches have to show that they have the balls to dump senior players right now. If they believe they have the right game plan and can prepare players appropriately, dump these guys for poor performances and reward those who come in and play accurately.
2 or 3 years ago, the argument was NZ had all the cattle it needed and a change in coach would solve all the problems. Well, guess what - it didn't.
The reason the forwards are doing OK is the coaching team took a long term view and built a unit with some depth. They actually developed players, though 6/7/8 combo has more work to do, but you can see the progress
Apart from sticking with Proctor, there's been nothing like that level of backline development in the same period. If anything we've gone backwards. Serious headless, shovel-it-down-the-line stuff with a god-awful kicking game.
Robertson needs someone with fresh eyes to come in and advise or take charge
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Don't understand the calls to change Vaai at 6.
10, wings, and 15 are the talking points -
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Frank said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
A bit more anger and a bit less hurt feelings from Razor would be comforting to see.
He looked a bit shell-shocked and lost, to be honest.
Exactly, a terrible picture to project
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@cgrant said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Losing each aerial contest cost the All Blacks the game, IMO. The back three were particularly poor in this respect as they could not catch a single kick for the whole game. This gave the Argies not only possession but also decisive momentum against opponents on the back foot. This was hard for the forwards to contest in the rucks as they always had to run backwards.
You can't implement a game plan when you can't get the ball
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Don't understand the calls to change Vaai at 6.
10, wings, and 15 are the talking pointsRegards Vaa'i it is also a question of whether he is now a better lock than the incumbent.
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Commit DMac to 10 for this year
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@booboo said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Jordie Barrett is v good under the highbal
Really?
I'm never confident with JB going up for the highball.
I just accept he's knocking it forward.
I watched a fair bit of him at Leinster this year, he was very safe. Better than the shit we have right now. If you look at some of the replays, they don’t even jump in line with the ball. Just don’t think they’re willing to put their bodies on the line in the air
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@booboo said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Jordie Barrett is v good under the highbal
Really?
I'm never confident with JB going up for the highball.
I just accept he's knocking it forward.
I hold the complete opposite opinion, I think he's one of the worlds best under the high ball and he's shown that time and again at 15. I have memories of him charging around the field like a mad man trying to take every single high ball as our wings (one was Bridge) couldn't catch a fucking cold.
A back three of Clarke-Jordie-Jordan would be much better suited to the modern test footy.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Something rotten in the selecting, coaching, and preparation.
Farming out selection to each assistant is a pussy head coach move. Man up Razor, this is your team.
This idea of selection by each assistant only works if the team has a clear approach to play that is agreed upon and acted upon from top to bottom. This team does not have that.
Change is needed - if it isn' players, sack some coaches. If Hansen is the main man in the backs, turn them all over to him and hold him responsible; equally the same goes for Holland. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, as they say, and it tastes like shit.
You've got guys playing significantly worse in the Black jersey than they were a month ago in Super (or European) rugby. That's on coaching and preparation and I doubt that these guys can figure out why because they dumped the previous admin on mass, so there is little institutional knowledge to provide guidance on where things are going wrong.
Assuming that a coach won't get sacked, then the coaches have to show that they have the balls to dump senior players right now. If they believe they have the right game plan and can prepare players appropriately, dump these guys for poor performances and reward those who come in and play accurately.
2 or 3 years ago, the argument was NZ had all the cattle it needed and a change in coach would solve all the problems. Well, guess what - it didn't.
The reason the forwards are doing OK is the coaching team took a long term view and built a unit with some depth. They actually developed players, though 6/7/8 combo has more work to do, but you can see the progress
Apart from sticking with Proctor, there's been nothing like that level of backline development in the same period. If anything we've gone backwards. Serious headless, shovel-it-down-the-line stuff with a god-awful kicking game.
Robertson needs someone with fresh eyes to come in and advise or take charge
We have speculate, but it looks like there is breakdown in the backs between the coaches (selection, preparation), in the coaching (alignment of strategy, preparation), or the players (understanding, preparation, execution). I'd love it if we had a real rugby media who would ask about this or at last even speculate on what is going on.
I agree with your point about the forwards, Ryan has found his feet and is doing pretty well apart from some ongoing issues with the loose forwards. At least, we can see what they are trying to do from their selections.
In the backs, that aspect is missing - the selections don't align with the pattern of play.
Right now, assuming there isn't a change in coaching (and I don't think there should be, but if I were in charge I'd get rid of Holland and give Hansen the keys, for better or worse), they'll need to be reactive in selection of the back three. We have to be able to secure constestables or it is just going to be 2009 all over again. That means given this squad, that Jordan goes to 14, Narawa to 11, and either Dmac or Love go to 15.
They could also trial Love as a 14 who might not match up not that terribly against the short athletes from the Boks and Wallabies.
Arguably, to maximise Beauden Barrett though, Jordie back to 15 allows a player who is prepared to be a straight-running bail option at 12. I say to maximise because I can't see them dropping him.
All in all, this performance highlights big issues in selection that have been apparent, and this Argentinian team took advantage of them. The Boks will be licking their lips.
