All Blacks v Argentina II
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@sparky said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@His-Bobness said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Jet Too many cheerleaders and former players in the NZ media and not enough actual journalists.
That Breakdown show is a national disgrace and everyone involved in it should be ashamed. Utterly ashamed.
Week after week, a panel of uncritical, naive cheerleaders are wheeled out to compete about who can read out talking points their pals in the All Blacks coaching set up have given them in the most gormless manner.
Week after week, they talk up the current All Balcks as if they are a mixture between the Harlem Globetrotters and the 1924-5 Invincibles.
The Aotearoa Rugby pod is little better. The same with the NZ Rugby press.
It's high time the coaches and the senior player got used to a bit of criticism again.
Remember when we used to spit on underperforming coaches at horse racing tracks!
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
That was an absolute shit-fest of a game and it's quite remarkable a loyal journeyman like Finlay Christie stood out as a key player, but the question is this a one-off or are we taking one step forward, two steps sideways an one step back?
The discipline was bloody awful. Where was the leadership? Scooter is a great lock but I'm unconvinced by his leadership. Pretty hard for Robertson to sack his captaincy and he not the only leader on the field, but there needs to be some discussions.
I really like Robertson sticking with new players for more than 1 or two Tests but the backline just isn't functioning. Either sort it out or get someone in who can - they've had plenty of time.
Don't think there's any need to panic right now, things were/are def. going in the right direction but with too many bumps on the way. That said, any more games like that and the chopping block will need to be taken out of storage an NZR HQ.
9/10 has struggled for continuity this season because of injuries. BB has struggled for form offensively and has been a handbrake on most backlines he has managed for some time now, both at provincial and international level. He isn’t the future, nor the present. Christie is a stop gap at best. Why not give Preston a go? He can’t be much worse, can he?
Midfield - Proctor has steadily improved IMO, which is what people have been asking for. Jordie has regressed, sadly. But Jordie has been the standout in the backline for the AB season, so maybe a drop in performance is to be expected. He is the best player in the backline right now in terms of being world class.
Back 3 - where to start? I feel like I’m back in the late 2000s when the ELVs were brought in and SA gave NZ several haymakers with their kick and chase game. Henry recognised the ABs inability to field the high ball and poor kick chase and went to Kahui, Jane and ultimately Dagg at FB.
Fast forward to the 2025 ABs and NZ need to find some players who are hungry for the kick chase and can contest in the air confidently. They have one in Jordan, who has to play (either at 14 or FB), but Reece is not that guy and Ioane (who used to be ok under the high ball but doesn’t appear confident now after years of playing 13) isn’t the answer at 11.
10, 11 and 14/15 are the questions in the backline.
10 position doesn’t need a Dan Carter. NZ hasn’t always had a magician at 10. Carter was a cheat code because of his all round offensive and defensive abilities allied with his tactical mastery. NZ need a tactician at 10 who can defend well and test the opposition defensive line. They don’t need to be a creator. That will come from Roigard (when fit). It needs to be an organiser and a facilitator to link the forwards and backs. Much like the French use of 10.
NZ’s strength is in numbers 1-8 and 9 with Roigard. The backs need to be filled with players with low error rates who can defend well, capitalise on mistakes and kick chase 100% of the time. They need to compliment the hard work up front, not undo it.
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Not my favourite area of the game, but Argentina's contestable kick execution was very good. Some midfield kicks falling between Jordan and B Barrett in the first half, with Christie often trying to catch. Second half kicked to Reece's wing, with Jordan coming over to cover for him.
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Vaa'i missed a number of tackles, and had an ineffectual game. He's a very good lock, and played well there in Super Rugby. They are trying to turn him into a Courtney Lawes style 6, I guess. Worth persisting with, or move him back to lock (where he should start)?
Defence was poor in this game. All loose forwards being played out of position doesn't help.
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@Tim said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Vaa'i missed a number of tackles, and had an ineffectual game. He's a very good lock, and played well there in Super Rugby. They are trying to turn him into a Courtney Lawes style player, I guess. Worth persisting with, or move him back to lock (where he should start)?
Move him back to lock, have an actual 6 play 6, and 8 play 8, and a 7 play 7. It’s not rocket science.
Ideally, should hell freeze over, I’d have;
- Williams
- Taylor
- Newell
- Va’ai
- Holland
- Parker
- Savea or Lakai
- Sititi
- The local u12 b team reserve half back
- McKenzie
- Carter
- Tupea
- Proctor
- Jordan
- J Barrett
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@Tim said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Vaa'i missed a number of tackles, and had an ineffectual game. He's a very good lock, and played well there in Super Rugby. They are trying to turn him into a Courtney Lawes style player, I guess. Worth persisting with, or move him back to lock (where he should start)?
He is early in his development as a 6. He has had good games, but got shut down in this one. Parker was v good and is maybe the long term answer at 6. ABs need two good options at 6 and look like they finally have them.
I expect to see Parker at 6 against Boks. If Savea and Sititi are starters, will Parker play at 6 or off the bench with Va’ai starting? If Parker starts, Holland is a starter in the second row, which leaves a big decision about S Barrett - starter with Va’ai (better player and in better form) on the bench or S Barrett on the bench which opens up the captaincy question?
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@Frank said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
A bit more anger and a bit less hurt feelings from Razor would be comforting to see.
He looked a bit shell-shocked and lost, to be honest.
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Losing each aerial contest cost the All Blacks the game, IMO. The back three were particularly poor in this respect as they could not catch a single kick for the whole game. This gave the Argies not only possession but also decisive momentum against opponents on the back foot. This was hard for the forwards to contest in the rucks as they always had to run backwards.
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If changes have to be made against the Springboks, then the whole back three should be completely reshuffled. Clarke (if fit) and Jordan on the wings, with Ruben Love at fullback as he is impressive at catching high balls, thanks to the perfect timing of his jump.
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One thing I will say in our defense, is that after the ref correctly carded our players for cynical play without warning us first, he then allowed Argentina to commit FOUR cynical penalties in a row on their own line without a card in the lead up to our last try. If he was consistent and carded an Argentinian at that point we probably win this match despite how poorly we played for large periods.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Something rotten in the selecting, coaching, and preparation.
Farming out selection to each assistant is a pussy head coach move. Man up Razor, this is your team.
This idea of selection by each assistant only works if the team has a clear approach to play that is agreed upon and acted upon from top to bottom. This team does not have that.
Change is needed - if it isn' players, sack some coaches. If Hansen is the main man in the backs, turn them all over to him and hold him responsible; equally the same goes for Holland. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, as they say, and it tastes like shit.
You've got guys playing significantly worse in the Black jersey than they were a month ago in Super (or European) rugby. That's on coaching and preparation and I doubt that these guys can figure out why because they dumped the previous admin on mass, so there is little institutional knowledge to provide guidance on where things are going wrong.
Assuming that a coach won't get sacked, then the coaches have to show that they have the balls to dump senior players right now. If they believe they have the right game plan and can prepare players appropriately, dump these guys for poor performances and reward those who come in and play accurately.
2 or 3 years ago, the argument was NZ had all the cattle it needed and a change in coach would solve all the problems. Well, guess what - it didn't.
The reason the forwards are doing OK is the coaching team took a long term view and built a unit with some depth. They actually developed players, though 6/7/8 combo has more work to do, but you can see the progress
Apart from sticking with Proctor, there's been nothing like that level of backline development in the same period. If anything we've gone backwards. Serious headless, shovel-it-down-the-line stuff with a god-awful kicking game.
Robertson needs someone with fresh eyes to come in and advise or take charge
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Don't understand the calls to change Vaai at 6.
10, wings, and 15 are the talking points -
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Frank said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
A bit more anger and a bit less hurt feelings from Razor would be comforting to see.
He looked a bit shell-shocked and lost, to be honest.
Exactly, a terrible picture to project
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@cgrant said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Losing each aerial contest cost the All Blacks the game, IMO. The back three were particularly poor in this respect as they could not catch a single kick for the whole game. This gave the Argies not only possession but also decisive momentum against opponents on the back foot. This was hard for the forwards to contest in the rucks as they always had to run backwards.
You can't implement a game plan when you can't get the ball
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Don't understand the calls to change Vaai at 6.
10, wings, and 15 are the talking pointsRegards Vaa'i it is also a question of whether he is now a better lock than the incumbent.
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Commit DMac to 10 for this year
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