All Blacks v Argentina II
-
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Nah thats a bullshit take.
The bloke coming from furthest back calls "my ball" as he is arriving onto it at pace and with full vision.
It was ever thus.
Our highball work is shite and both Barretts in that photo are persona non grata with me, but the photo proves nothing.
-
@Mauss said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@pakman Ball reaches the backline within 3 phases. Didn’t really know how to abbreviate that.
Not sure I understand. Ball off top of lineout, passed 9 to 10. Is that BLin3? Or does it have to get back to backlaine AGAIN within 3 phases?
-
@pakman said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
The back five seems to me the key. I like the idea of Holland and Barrett to start, with Lakai or Jacobson at 7, Vaa’i 6 and RD at 8. Then at 60 Patty T in for Scooter. Vaa’i to 5, Parker or Finau to 6 and Sititi on at 8. RD either moves to 7 or gets an early shower.
I’d agree that the back 5 is key but, to be honest, I can’t really figure it out. Holland has done really well since the start of the Test season but I feel like he might be coming back to earth a bit in recent games. But then again, he’s become crucial for the lineout as well as restarts so can you afford to put him on the bench?
I don’t think Ardie Savea is direct enough to be an 8. He makes a lot of metres and beats a lot of defenders but he uses a lot of footwork and hesitation moves to make these metres, which often breaks the rhythm. Sititi is much more of a head down, smash into collisions-type player which is what I think you need in that spot. I think the Savea-Lio-Willie combo worked well, and I think the Savea-Sititi combo is that on steroids.
It's annoying how blindside remains a thing. I don’t like agreeing with Nick Bishop because he comes across as incredibly smug but it’s hard to argue against the evidence here:
Old mate Pablo Matera showed the back-row remains at the heart of Razor's All Blacks riddle
Scott Robertson's long-time friend and ex-Crusader exposed cracks in the Kiwi pack as Argentina claimed an historic victory.
Those are just way too many soft shoulders from Vaa’i on show here. And when you’ve basically been bullied in the physical exchanges in ARG II, then you need to draw your conclusions for the Springbok Tests.
So after all that, and with a complete lack of confidence, I’d go: 4. Barrett 5. Vaa’i 6. Parker/Finau 7. Savea 8. Sititi 19. Holland 20. Parker/Finau 21. Lakai. But to be honest, I don’t really know anymore.
The pack is in dire need of some real bastards - that Argentina side is filled with them, even amongst the backs, like that yappy midget Mateo Carreras - but it's hard to see where they'll come from. Dane Coles needs to set up a school somewhere.
-
@pakman said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Not sure I understand. Ball off top of lineout, passed 9 to 10. Is that BLin3? Or does it have to get back to backlaine AGAIN within 3 phases?
No, it's a bit of a strange metric to distinguish between possessions off lineout or scrum (1) which were meant to be kept amongst the forwards, or (2) which were meant for a backline play.
But it's difficult to make this distinction because you'd often have the forwards keep the ball for a few phases (for example, through a peel or blindside play off the lineout) before releasing the ball to the backline. The ball was always meant to go wide but was kept amongst the forwards for a few phases in order to condense the defence before initiating the backs' strike.
So this "within 3 phases" was basically my way of saying: was the set piece strike meant to come into the backline or not? Does that make sense?
-
Jason Ryan is a good tight five coach but he's been average with the loose forwards. Last year it was said that Robertson was choosing the loose forwards but Ryan has final responsibility.
I honestly have no clue who the preferred loose trio is at this stage and one of our few world class players has been shunted between 7 and 8 all year - often in the same game.
Our loose forwards have largely been riding the coat tails of the tight five.
Our loose trio was most effective this year at the breakdown in the last 20 minutes in the last French test.
Vaai as good as he's been will I believe always be vulnerable defending off the side of the scrum from runners like Matera. I recall one year the exact same scenario with the Pumas and Papali'i got there and made the tackle, then got up and tackled again immediately. Vaai just doesn't have that speed off the scrum or off the deck.
-
-
@pakman said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Mauss So if BLin3 is 'no', the forwards coddled the ball a while before letting the backs have a go?
If BLin3 is no, that means the forwards have basically kept possession, for example, mauling it inside the 22. Or they've done a peel and then resorted to pick-and-go's. Or they mauled and then the 9 has gone for a box-kick. So the backline was never really set up as a way of moving the ball up-field.
If BLin3 is yes, that means that the ball was released to the backline within 3 phases. So for example: 5+1 lineout, Savea detaches and the ball is released to the backline. Like those first phase strikes the ABs liked to use last season, or the Jordie Barrett pass out the back to looping players, and so on.
I was trying to figure out a way of measuring how the ABs really want to move the ball-upfield between the halfway line and the opposition 22: do they want to use the backline (like Scotland) or the forwards (like France)? And it turns out, it was basically a messy combination of the two.
-
@Mauss I've been thinking something similar for the back five.
Barrett, Vaa'i, Parker, Savea, Sititi (with Sititi on the flank for defensive scrums).
Holland/Lord/Tuipulotu, Lakai/Finau as your reserves (assuming a traditional 5:3 split) depending on the opposition.
-
@Mauss The problem with RD at 7, is that he seems generally to seagull.
Yes, he sometimes chooses to go for the jackal, in particular close to our line. But seldom does the cleaning, and doesn't make efforts to slow the ball.
I want to hear, 'Hands off, 7'! Would have been a huge help on Saturday! -
-
Between them, I would say Vaa'i, Parker, Savea and Ratima are strong enough collectively at the breakdown (Tupaea or Tavatavanawai in the backline if they're playing too). But also wouldn't mind Papali'i in there at 7, just can't picture a world where Savea is dropped from the starting line-up, let alone the 23.
-
@Mauss said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
After France I he posted an analysis of how the ABs were setting up attack with four forwards creating ... something fuck I don't know, some voodoo drawing the defence half an inch closer and tricking the Frogs into missing tackles when they decide to pass wide or some shit.
Made a degree of sense at the time.
I think you're referring to the flat pods teams are using nowadays? It's something you see a lot and mostly has to do with the fact that the pace of the game requires pods to form on the fly rather than being pre-set like they used to be. Nick Bishop has a good, short article on it for the Rugby Site.
How to work a modern pod system with LQB | The Rugby Site's Blog
Modern pod systems have been transformed by the new breakdown guidelines. Nick Bishop looks what effects they are having on o... (continued)
‘The quickening’ allowed less time for the offence to regroup and drop into set pod formations like the 2-4-2 or the 1-3-3-1, and these are now rare birds at elite level. While one forward will likely continue to drop to either edge in multi-phase play, the roles of the other six forwards in between them are far more fluid than they used to be.
As for the second Test against Argentina, it looked like the ABs didn't want to play with too much width between the 22s and wanted to target the area around the ruck (see the Ratima snipes before going off). But they made so many errors in possession - at set piece and in the air - that it's hard to know what the plan was exactly. They had way too little ball to do anything meaningful with it.
Like I tried to convey in my own wonky analysis, they were very good inside the ARG 22 and pretty terrible everywhere else. Not sure how that constitutes sandbagging, though.
Thanks Mauss.
I in no way was suggesting sandbagging (the infamous "keeping our powder dry" of 2019 in Fern canon).
Was more wondering if anyone had detected any attempt at pattern or tactics. Thanks for your observations. Do appreciate the in depth analysis.
-
@pakman said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Mauss The problem with RD at 7, is that he seems generally to seagull.
Yes, he sometimes chooses to go for the jackal, in particular close to our line. But seldom does the cleaning, and doesn't make efforts to slow the ball.
I want to hear, 'Hands off, 7'! Would have been a huge help on Saturday!To be fair to Savea, he was, by some distance, the biggest Kiwi presence at the defensive ruck in SRP 2025 (nearly 14 defensive rucks attended per 80 min). That’s more than Kirifi (10 defensive rucks per 80 min), Papali’i (9.5 defensive rucks per 80 min), and Withy (10 defensive rucks per 80 min).
I also thought he was very unlucky not to be awarded on at least two occasions by Berry for the jackal. The Aussie ref seemed to indicate that there was a tackler in the ruck area but I thought that was a harsh call.
But it’s true that, in contrast to players like Kirifi and Papali’i, he’s pretty much a no-show at the attacking ruck. But players like Barrett, Vaa’i, Taylor, and Newell do a ton of work in that area. Also, Sititi (15 attacking rucks per 80 min), Parker (20 attacking rucks per 80 min) and Finau (17 attacking rucks per 80 min) bring enough to that table to make it work, I think.
-
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@junior said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Can anyone remember how Razor's Crusaders teams played? My recollection was they did the basics well. But I could be wrong
Strong set piece, good kicking game and put a lot of phases together to exert pressure on the oppositions defence.
That's what I thought. That's what I based my hope for Razor on. So what is this shit we're being served up then???
The one different piece of the coaching puzzle is Wayne Smith this really is a fingerprint of Smiths helter skelter run at all costs game, as it was mentioned above the Black Ferns used this pattern as soon as Smith came on board.
I can only think he is the person setting this way of playing.
As it makes no sense Razor,Hansen especially had a completely different way of playing for 7 years at the Crusaders.Razor and Hansen are culpable. You can't make Smith a scape goat. He's only an occasional mentor.
Who said I am making him a scapegoat but why change a game plan that worked for 7 years and won 7 titles to a game plan similar to what the Black ferns and other teams have used under Smith, seems to point to something changing.
He is a mentor they talk to every week more than once I know that for a fact.You continue to try and make Smith a scape goat with this comment.
Robertson and co are middle aged men with decades of coaching experience.
They can choose to take and leave whatever advice Smith gives them but the buck stops with them and ultimately Robertson is 100% responsible for the outcomes as head coach.
No I am stating a fact its there for you to see why things may have changed since the Crusaders.
And I did state Razor needs to be responsible for his decisions
You are just picking out a true statement and bleating about it.Why are you putting the change entirely down to Smith’s influence? Maybe Razor and co have decided they can’t or don’t want to play the same way as the Crusaders because of the talent available in the ABs. Maybe there is another reason why they think a different approach is warranted at AB and test level. Putting it all down to Smith’s influence - especially when you have Ryan and Holland also added to the mix - seems like a real stretch.
If you read my other posts you will see I have stated this is on Razor to make the ultimate decisions it is on his head.
That is hardly completely blaming Smith.But you have been saying that the change in style must be down to Smith (even if it is ultimately up to Razor to own it) - that’s just speculation on your part. We have no idea who is responsible for the change in style within the coaching group - other than Razor.
-
@pakman said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Paps would have been handy at 7 in Buenos Aries.
Sotutu might have been interesting at 8....
In his quest to build positional depth, Razor has a squad of loose forwards that are essentially the same player, and none of them appear to be able to consistently deliver physicality
-
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Between them, I would say Vaa'i, Parker, Savea and Ratima are strong enough collectively at the breakdown (Tupaea or Tavatavanawai in the backline if they're playing too). But also wouldn't mind Papali'i in there at 7, just can't picture a world where Savea is dropped from the starting line-up, let alone the 23.
I dont think the Allblacks will ever fully heal until Ardie and Beaudy are gone.
They historically demanded inclusion but picking them causes a myriad of selection headaches elsewhere.
-
@Jet said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Between them, I would say Vaa'i, Parker, Savea and Ratima are strong enough collectively at the breakdown (Tupaea or Tavatavanawai in the backline if they're playing too). But also wouldn't mind Papali'i in there at 7, just can't picture a world where Savea is dropped from the starting line-up, let alone the 23.
I dont think the Allblacks will ever fully heal until Ardie and Beaudy are gone.
They historically demanded inclusion but picking them causes a myriad of selection headaches elsewhere.
I agree. They need a complete refresh in terms of selection and, with Robertson placing value of experience above all else, that's not going to happen until after the World Cup.
-
Vaaii deservedly gets some shit for his terrible attempt on Matera, but it's obvious that he'll need to work on his defense around the scrums and in structured play - he's always been a bit of a hybrid player but he's hardly played at 6 - he's developed as very good lock and knows that role, so he'll look like a lock playing 6 at times.
If we accept he's the best for the role, we'll have to eat these mistakes as he develops his knowledge, and hopefully we'll see him play at 6 for the Chiefs (either starting or finishing games if Finau is subbed).
-
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
More from Dagg
'Half-hearted': Israel Dagg criticises All Black winger's performance
The back three had it's struggles against Argentina in Buenos Aires, especially under the high ball, after the home side put continuous pressure on Rieko Ioane, Sevu Reece and Will Jordan throughout the game.
“You look at our chases at the moment, and Rieko, this isn’t a plot on him as a person, but he just can’t get up and chase and put pressure on the ball, like you look at him and he’s getting up and he’s kind of just half hearted into the into the jump,” Dagg said on Sport Nation’s Breakfast with Scotty & Izzy. “He’s not winning it, he’s not brave, he’s not courageous, and he’s not getting up and trying to put a knee in the bloke, like, that’s what you’ve got to do.” “It’s a 50-50 play, and right now it’s a 70-30 play, because opposition would have seen that and it’s gonna continue to come throughout the rest of the year and if we do not fix that, it’s gonna be a difficult season.” Dagg gives credit to Argentina whose kicks were accurate, and not too far that their chasers couldn’t get up and contest. “Argentina, they kicked really well, they weren’t kicking it too long, and I think that’s the problem at the moment. from our own kicks, we are kicking it too long and there’s not enough height on it. “So you’re not giving our chasers a genuine option to get up and disrupt, I’ve got to be completely honest, there’s only one bloke there at the back at the moment they can catch high ball, and you’re relying heavily on a Will Jordan to get up and and do what’s asked of him.”That just sounds like he has an axe to grind with Rieko. Jordan was poor as well and has never been great under the high ball, and Reece is even worse than Rieko but also throws in moronic brain explosions that cost us games, like going for a dumb ass one handed intercept just when we had the upper hand. Not even worth a mention? It was all just Rieko being lazy? Fuck off Dagg.
