All Blacks v Argentina II
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Quite possibly an ice-cold take.
Wayne Smith is probably the greatest attacking mind in rugby, is clearly a fantastic person, and is beloved for all he has done for NZ rugby. I love him.
He also hates the box kick. As do I. I'd ban it if I could.
He's been on record telling his teams to avoid contestables of that nature.
He's the coach of the AB coaches.
It seems to me that NZ rugby has been trying to find a way to play 'in our style' without recognizing the reality of where Rugby is right now, ala 2009.
Are the coaches (and those coaching them) strategizing about how to play rugby in a way that just isn't possible under current law interpretations?
Is Smith the right person to help bring the coaches back to reality when they seem to be losing their way?
In 2009, the coaches were prepared to select in a way to at least negate the kick-chase game of other teams. Can he he bring that reality check to these guys and help them see that their desire to play in a certain way isn't looking achievable?
I'm fascinated to see whether NZR, the coaches, and those who coach the coaches respond to this loss.
The manner of it is of huge concern; we seem like a club team that had a bad week and the ABs just can not be that type of team.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Frank said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@stodders said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Jordan might not be a godsend at fullback. Who woulda thought?
Siege gun boot with pace to burn - is it not Zarn Sullivan’s time?
I’d like to see Love at 10.
Zarn is slow as fuck
He has not kicked on. Looked like he was going to be an absolute star, but injuries have cripple dhis development and he's not where he needs ot be to play at the top level.
It's a pity as the attributes were there. And his boot .../drool
A combo of Bailyn and Zarn is that player that @stodders mentioned.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
It seems to me that NZ rugby has been trying to find a way to play 'in our style' without recognizing the reality of where Rugby is right now, ala 2009.
Are the coaches (and those coaching them) strategizing about how to play rugby in a way that just isn't possible under current law interpretations?
I agree. The All Blacks have lost their way trying to play to their imagined brand ideal, not according to reality. The irony is in trying to conjure up the mythical Kiwi quick-passing fast-on-the feet backyard rugby idea of the imagination, they are straying more and more away from their instincts. The game the coaches are trying to get them to play is in their heads, not in their bodies.
No-one is saying you can’t play that style of helter skelter game when it’s warranted. But they also need to be pragmatic and realise there are other ways of playing. And in all that, they can’t the abandon basic skills of the sport.
What’s missing is a level of pragmatism and coolness under pressure that used to define the great All Blacks teams. It’s why they panic so quickly and resort to brain explosions that lead to yellow cards, leading to more pressure and more panic. They are stuck in an almighty existential rugby rut. And I can’t see that Robertson - who clearly has become a prisoner of the romantic AB myth himself - is capable of pulling them out of it.
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Wayne was a architect of the BFs RWC win, and their run it from everywhere style. I seem to recall his AB team was very attack focused as well. The 2011 and 2015 ABs teams he was an integral part of, and the championship winning Chiefs teams had more balance. Maybe this was provided by Henry, Hansen, and Rennie respectively. Razor is a student of the professor, who does not appear to have learned the lessons of old, that you need to win the battle up front before you give it to the backs, and you need to be solid in the basics of the game such as the kicking game. I am not sure he has anyone to make counterpoints in his current team of trusted yes men
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@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Can anyone remember how Razor's Crusaders teams played? My recollection was they did the basics well. But I could be wrong
Strong set piece, good kicking game and put a lot of phases together to exert pressure on the oppositions defence.
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@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Can anyone remember how Razor's Crusaders teams played? My recollection was they did the basics well. But I could be wrong
Strong set piece, good kicking game and put a lot of phases together to exert pressure on the oppositions defence.
That's what I thought. That's what I based my hope for Razor on. So what is this shit we're being served up then???
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@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Can anyone remember how Razor's Crusaders teams played? My recollection was they did the basics well. But I could be wrong
Strong set piece, good kicking game and put a lot of phases together to exert pressure on the oppositions defence.
That's what I thought. That's what I based my hope for Razor on. So what is this shit we're being served up then???
The one different piece of the coaching puzzle is Wayne Smith this really is a fingerprint of Smiths helter skelter run at all costs game, as it was mentioned above the Black Ferns used this pattern as soon as Smith came on board.
I can only think he is the person setting this way of playing.
As it makes no sense Razor,Hansen especially had a completely different way of playing for 7 years at the Crusaders. -
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Can anyone remember how Razor's Crusaders teams played? My recollection was they did the basics well. But I could be wrong
Strong set piece, good kicking game and put a lot of phases together to exert pressure on the oppositions defence.
That's what I thought. That's what I based my hope for Razor on. So what is this shit we're being served up then???
The one different piece of the coaching puzzle is Wayne Smith this really is a fingerprint of Smiths helter skelter run at all costs game, as it was mentioned above the Black Ferns used this pattern as soon as Smith came on board.
I can only think he is the person setting this way of playing.
As it makes no sense Razor,Hansen especially had a completely different way of playing for 7 years at the Crusaders.Razor and Hansen are culpable. You can't make Smith a scape goat. He's only an occasional mentor.
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@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Can anyone remember how Razor's Crusaders teams played? My recollection was they did the basics well. But I could be wrong
Strong set piece, good kicking game and put a lot of phases together to exert pressure on the oppositions defence.
That's what I thought. That's what I based my hope for Razor on. So what is this shit we're being served up then???
The one different piece of the coaching puzzle is Wayne Smith this really is a fingerprint of Smiths helter skelter run at all costs game, as it was mentioned above the Black Ferns used this pattern as soon as Smith came on board.
I can only think he is the person setting this way of playing.
As it makes no sense Razor,Hansen especially had a completely different way of playing for 7 years at the Crusaders.Razor and Hansen are culpable. You can't make Smith a scape goat. He's only an occasional mentor.
Who said I am making him a scapegoat but why change a game plan that worked for 7 years and won 7 titles to a game plan similar to what the Black ferns and other teams have used under Smith, seems to point to something changing.
He is a mentor they talk to every week more than once I know that for a fact.
just adding to that yes Razors head is on the line he needs to make his own decisions if things are not working.
But I answered a question on why tactics have changed since the Crusaders. -
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Can anyone remember how Razor's Crusaders teams played? My recollection was they did the basics well. But I could be wrong
Strong set piece, good kicking game and put a lot of phases together to exert pressure on the oppositions defence.
That's what I thought. That's what I based my hope for Razor on. So what is this shit we're being served up then???
The one different piece of the coaching puzzle is Wayne Smith this really is a fingerprint of Smiths helter skelter run at all costs game, as it was mentioned above the Black Ferns used this pattern as soon as Smith came on board.
I can only think he is the person setting this way of playing.
As it makes no sense Razor,Hansen especially had a completely different way of playing for 7 years at the Crusaders.Razor and Hansen are culpable. You can't make Smith a scape goat. He's only an occasional mentor.
Who said I am making him a scapegoat but why change a game plan that worked for 7 years and won 7 titles to a game plan similar to what the Black ferns and other teams have used under Smith, seems to point to something changing.
He is a mentor they talk to every week more than once I know that for a fact.You continue to try and make Smith a scape goat with this comment.
Robertson and co are middle aged men with decades of coaching experience.
They can choose to take and leave whatever advice Smith gives them but the buck stops with them and ultimately Robertson is 100% responsible for the outcomes as head coach.
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@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Can anyone remember how Razor's Crusaders teams played? My recollection was they did the basics well. But I could be wrong
Strong set piece, good kicking game and put a lot of phases together to exert pressure on the oppositions defence.
That's what I thought. That's what I based my hope for Razor on. So what is this shit we're being served up then???
The one different piece of the coaching puzzle is Wayne Smith this really is a fingerprint of Smiths helter skelter run at all costs game, as it was mentioned above the Black Ferns used this pattern as soon as Smith came on board.
I can only think he is the person setting this way of playing.
As it makes no sense Razor,Hansen especially had a completely different way of playing for 7 years at the Crusaders.Razor and Hansen are culpable. You can't make Smith a scape goat. He's only an occasional mentor.
Who said I am making him a scapegoat but why change a game plan that worked for 7 years and won 7 titles to a game plan similar to what the Black ferns and other teams have used under Smith, seems to point to something changing.
He is a mentor they talk to every week more than once I know that for a fact.You continue to try and make Smith a scape goat with this comment.
Robertson and co are middle aged men with decades of coaching experience.
They can choose to take and leave whatever advice Smith gives them but the buck stops with them and ultimately Robertson is 100% responsible for the outcomes as head coach.
No I am stating a fact its there for you to see why things may have changed since the Crusaders.
And I did state Razor needs to be responsible for his decisions
You are just picking out a true statement and bleating about it. -
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@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I can only think he is the person setting this way of playing.
This is what you said that's probably not exactly what you intended. It reads like you are sheeting home responsibility to Smith.
No doubt Wayne may be pushing for a fast brand of rugby, but he should not be setting the direction of the team.
That must come from Razor and his assistants. -
We're making assumptions but if Smith is having that much influence over Razor, then it really points to Razor's lack of international experience. If he had built up some more experience before taking on the AB coaching role, he would probably trust his own judgement more rather than relying so much on Smith who does have that experience.
I remember saying that I would prefer Schmidt over Razor when they were appointing him, and got quite a bit of push back from people saying Schmidt's international record wasn't always that flash. But that's kind of exactly why he was well suited for the job - he had that international experience and grown from it. Razor is out of his depth at the moment and starting to drown.
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@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Nothing worse than the people in charge apparently having no idea what the problem is. Perhaps we should be quietly sounding out Schmidt, Joseph and Brown for the post-apocolyptic period after 2027?
That's a great-sounding team, but don't know if all three would be keen.
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@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Can anyone remember how Razor's Crusaders teams played? My recollection was they did the basics well. But I could be wrong
Strong set piece, good kicking game and put a lot of phases together to exert pressure on the oppositions defence.
That's what I thought. That's what I based my hope for Razor on. So what is this shit we're being served up then???
The one different piece of the coaching puzzle is Wayne Smith this really is a fingerprint of Smiths helter skelter run at all costs game, as it was mentioned above the Black Ferns used this pattern as soon as Smith came on board.
I can only think he is the person setting this way of playing.
As it makes no sense Razor,Hansen especially had a completely different way of playing for 7 years at the Crusaders.I could be wrong but I thought I read that Smith acknowledged they couldn't match the grunt of the English forwards so he focussed the Black Ferns on their key strength-running rugby. It was a strategic decision...
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@nzzp said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Stat watch from a mate - from WIkipedia, may or may not be fully accurate.
The last two years of Foster in the rugby championship: 9 games, 4 yellows (rest of league 32).
Current coaching: 8 games 12 yellows, (rest of league 14 cards)Wow.
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@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Can anyone remember how Razor's Crusaders teams played? My recollection was they did the basics well. But I could be wrong
Strong set piece, good kicking game and put a lot of phases together to exert pressure on the oppositions defence.
That's what I thought. That's what I based my hope for Razor on. So what is this shit we're being served up then???
As old mate @ACT-Crusader would say, there are clearly not enough Crusaders in this side
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@voodoo said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
As old mate @ACT-Crusader would say, there are clearly not enough Crusaders in this side
But clearly too many in the coaching ranks!
