All Blacks v Springboks I
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@akan004 yeah seems they want to protect these guys from injury while ignoring getting them match fit, whereas you'd think if you arent match fit you are more likely to pick up an injury?
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@akan004 yeah seems they want to protect these guys from injury while ignoring getting them match fit, whereas you'd think if you arent match fit you are more likely to pick up an injury?
It also points to not many if any changes for the Boks test.
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
I not sure they are restrained, I just genuinely think they look at whole picture and go from there? It probably easier for us we watch game, see someone , decide we like them or not and then excuse them if we do, and rubbish them if we don't. A classic case is Christie, how many people when going crook about him mention he a ranga etc. See I thought he was one of our best backs on weekend. Same as BB, many will come up with he was best sometime ago, and suggest players like Love who has played 3 games at 10 etc. When we don't like players, we see them miss a tackle etc, and get stuck in, we don't look at any breakdown of defense system.
The thing is Dan - they don't look at the whole system in their comments. It's not just that they tend to talk up everyone, it's that they don't seem to critically analyse the ABs either. Without Roigard the ABs have a clear issue with tactical high and long kicking but they won't touch on it. Likewise the ABs restarts are easy fodder compared to the opposition - if it's not a short kickoff they have very little hangtime which helps the opposition to exit - whereas the ABs are having to take hanging restarts around their own 22 with chasers right in their face. They don't touch on it.
Where is the analysis of the backs? There is something fundamentally wrong with the backs currently - legitimately as bad as an AB backline has ever looked. As Dagg touched on - neither wing is adept under the high ball - that's not just on the players - that's on the coaches and selectors.
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@booboo said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Canes4life said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
At least the players I rate become All Blacks.
Iose awaiting the inevitable call up.
Iose isn’t someone that I’ve backed that hard, purely because we don’t need another small-ish 8 at test level. Good Super Rugby player. Higgins for that matter… watch out when he gets fit.
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it doesn't even have to be a fucking AFL coach, look at what your average NRL winger can do on either side of a ball.
Actually Marky Mark is shit under the high ball so maybe rugby backs ignore basic skills far too much
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@SBW1 said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
A
n AFLcoach would be a huge asset at the momentin regards to restarts and the aerial game.Fixed.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
it doesn't even have to be a fucking AFL coach, look at what your average NRL winger can do on either side of a ball.
Actually Marky Mark is shit under the high ball so maybe rugby backs ignore basic skills far too much
I thought the Wallabies were impressive under the high ball vs the Boks last week. Specifically Corey Toole. It wasn't the high ball that cost them the game - in fact it put them in position to win it.
Whatever they are doing seems to be working.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
MOTM polls vs boks last year (those over 10%):
Clarke, Vaai, Taylor, Jordie, Blackadder
Taylor, Vaai, Sititi, CaneWhich may suggest our best lock ought to be playing lock, we miss Clarke - who Razor left out at the start of the season when available - and we need some loosies who are going to hit attacking rucks. Not that we won those games, mind.
Sorry when did Razor leave out Clarke?
Test 1 this year vs France in Dunedin.
Though he was set to start test 2 before getting injured in training
Reece was out concussed for test #2... Clarke was probably only selected for that one due to injury.
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@KiwiMurph practising?
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
Speaking of Dagg and ex players not being critical of current ABs, evidently he’s not a Rieko fan… and wasn’t when they played together
Finally someone says something. Thank heavens.
The fact in a decade Rieko hasn't developed the skills to take the high ball or develop a kicking game says a lot.
It also says a lot about these coaches.
They talk about both sides of the ball but throw Rieko on the wing when presumably they know he struggles under the high ball. If they don't know - and if their plan was to play Rieko on the wing - then why weren't they using the pre AB squad naming camp in BOP and the French series trainings to really test out Rieko under the high ball.
There are some things Rieko has improved on in his career - defensively he has gotten much better and his passing has improved compared to where it was when he first came on the scene.
But it screams of Razor not having the sack to drop a guy that the NZR signed to a deal through to the 2027 RWC.
He doesn't need a highball game at centre and he didn't need a kicking game with Havili and JB being his main two partners.
He didn't move to centre until 2020 - where was the development of a high ball game in 2018 or 2019 following his breakout 2017 season? Where is any evidence he has worked on his high ball game in the last 2 months ? As I state above - this is also on the coaches when switching him back to wing this year - they've switched a guy back there who doesn't have high ball skills and their plan is to have Will Jordan covering it.
As for a kicking game this also would have been beneficial to him as a winger before he switched to midfield - Rieko would often be in the back field as cover with no kicking option to go to or not have a kick ahead option when the opportinity arose when he was put into space - not to mention another kicking option in the backline would always be an asset to his team and a string to his bow. Effectively it would have made him less one dimensional. Nonu didn't 'need' a kicking game either but he developed an excellent one over time. Heck even at a franchise level Lam in his first proper season at 12 this year displayed development of a kicking game.
Nonu played at 12 where a kicking game is required
Conrad Smith kicked very rarely.
Rieko Ioane has only had one full season on the wing for the Blues where the players develop their skills. The great majority of his Blues career was spent in the midfield and at center when the team went from chronic cellar dwellers to winning a SRT title, an SRP title and multiple semi finals.
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@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
Speaking of Dagg and ex players not being critical of current ABs, evidently he’s not a Rieko fan… and wasn’t when they played together
Finally someone says something. Thank heavens.
The fact in a decade Rieko hasn't developed the skills to take the high ball or develop a kicking game says a lot.
It also says a lot about these coaches.
They talk about both sides of the ball but throw Rieko on the wing when presumably they know he struggles under the high ball. If they don't know - and if their plan was to play Rieko on the wing - then why weren't they using the pre AB squad naming camp in BOP and the French series trainings to really test out Rieko under the high ball.
There are some things Rieko has improved on in his career - defensively he has gotten much better and his passing has improved compared to where it was when he first came on the scene.
But it screams of Razor not having the sack to drop a guy that the NZR signed to a deal through to the 2027 RWC.
He doesn't need a highball game at centre and he didn't need a kicking game with Havili and JB being his main two partners.
Does need to know how to pass well though doesn't he.
See it as a close call between him and Proctor however.
Jesse Kriel passed zero times in the 2023 RWC final. The game has moved on from silky Bruce Robertson types.
LOL - I guess that makes his lack of skill development okay then.
His passing game at centre has good enough for the Blues to win a championship and for the ABs to go within 1 point of winning an RWC final with 14 men. You could in no way suggest it was Ioane that stopped us from winning that RWC final. Cane and Frizell were carded. Mo'unga and JB missed kicks.
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@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
Speaking of Dagg and ex players not being critical of current ABs, evidently he’s not a Rieko fan… and wasn’t when they played together
Finally someone says something. Thank heavens.
The fact in a decade Rieko hasn't developed the skills to take the high ball or develop a kicking game says a lot.
It also says a lot about these coaches.
They talk about both sides of the ball but throw Rieko on the wing when presumably they know he struggles under the high ball. If they don't know - and if their plan was to play Rieko on the wing - then why weren't they using the pre AB squad naming camp in BOP and the French series trainings to really test out Rieko under the high ball.
There are some things Rieko has improved on in his career - defensively he has gotten much better and his passing has improved compared to where it was when he first came on the scene.
But it screams of Razor not having the sack to drop a guy that the NZR signed to a deal through to the 2027 RWC.
He doesn't need a highball game at centre and he didn't need a kicking game with Havili and JB being his main two partners.
Does need to know how to pass well though doesn't he.
See it as a close call between him and Proctor however.
Jesse Kriel passed zero times in the 2023 RWC final. The game has moved on from silky Bruce Robertson types.
LOL - I guess that makes his lack of skill development okay then.
His passing game at centre has good enough for the Blues to win a championship and for the ABs to go within 1 point of winning an RWC final with 14 men. You could in no way suggest it was Ioane that stopped us from winning that RWC final. Cane and Frizell were carded. Mo'unga and JB missed kicks.
You could argue that the Blues won that championship without the outside backs or Rieko doing much other than tackling. Their key differences were having Ioane and Hoskins in top form, and no BB.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
Speaking of Dagg and ex players not being critical of current ABs, evidently he’s not a Rieko fan… and wasn’t when they played together
Finally someone says something. Thank heavens.
The fact in a decade Rieko hasn't developed the skills to take the high ball or develop a kicking game says a lot.
It also says a lot about these coaches.
They talk about both sides of the ball but throw Rieko on the wing when presumably they know he struggles under the high ball. If they don't know - and if their plan was to play Rieko on the wing - then why weren't they using the pre AB squad naming camp in BOP and the French series trainings to really test out Rieko under the high ball.
There are some things Rieko has improved on in his career - defensively he has gotten much better and his passing has improved compared to where it was when he first came on the scene.
But it screams of Razor not having the sack to drop a guy that the NZR signed to a deal through to the 2027 RWC.
He doesn't need a highball game at centre and he didn't need a kicking game with Havili and JB being his main two partners.
Does need to know how to pass well though doesn't he.
See it as a close call between him and Proctor however.
Jesse Kriel passed zero times in the 2023 RWC final. The game has moved on from silky Bruce Robertson types.
LOL - I guess that makes his lack of skill development okay then.
His passing game at centre has good enough for the Blues to win a championship and for the ABs to go within 1 point of winning an RWC final with 14 men. You could in no way suggest it was Ioane that stopped us from winning that RWC final. Cane and Frizell were carded. Mo'unga and JB missed kicks.
You could argue that the Blues won that championship without the outside backs or Rieko doing much other than tackling. Their key differences were having Ioane and Hoskins in top form, and no BB.
Yes you could argue that but as they say defence wins championships and the Blues defence has been near the best the last two years with Rieko as the preferred 13.
Defence is something Proctor seems to be struggling with at test level and I would argue that at test level in tight games defence is more important than passing game at 13.
People have been talking about Proctor as some kind of defensive leader but with his passing game and defensive leadership the Pumas made 7 line breaks to our 1 in the last game.
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@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
Defence is something Proctor seems to be struggling with at test level and I would argue that at test level in tight games defence is more important than passing game at 13.
Agree Rieko could be better than Proctor at test level at this point. And you could be right it is more important than distribtuion.
But rather than trying to pretend distribution doesn't matter for a 13, wouldn't it be nice to have a center who could do both or had developed both.
Damn, this is the All Blacks.
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@Frank said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
Defence is something Proctor seems to be struggling with at test level and I would argue that at test level in tight games defence is more important than passing game at 13.
Agree Rieko could be better than Proctor at test level at this point. And you could be right it is more important than distribtuion.
But rather than trying to pretend distribution doesn't matter for a 13, wouldn't it be nice to have a center who could do both or had developed both.
Damn, this is the All Blacks.
Im not pretending it doesn't matter. We take the best option we have on balance until something better comes along. We just don't have any proven, complete test center at the moment.
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@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@brodean said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
@Wurzel said in All Blacks v Springboks I:
Speaking of Dagg and ex players not being critical of current ABs, evidently he’s not a Rieko fan… and wasn’t when they played together
Finally someone says something. Thank heavens.
The fact in a decade Rieko hasn't developed the skills to take the high ball or develop a kicking game says a lot.
It also says a lot about these coaches.
They talk about both sides of the ball but throw Rieko on the wing when presumably they know he struggles under the high ball. If they don't know - and if their plan was to play Rieko on the wing - then why weren't they using the pre AB squad naming camp in BOP and the French series trainings to really test out Rieko under the high ball.
There are some things Rieko has improved on in his career - defensively he has gotten much better and his passing has improved compared to where it was when he first came on the scene.
But it screams of Razor not having the sack to drop a guy that the NZR signed to a deal through to the 2027 RWC.
He doesn't need a highball game at centre and he didn't need a kicking game with Havili and JB being his main two partners.
He didn't move to centre until 2020 - where was the development of a high ball game in 2018 or 2019 following his breakout 2017 season? Where is any evidence he has worked on his high ball game in the last 2 months ? As I state above - this is also on the coaches when switching him back to wing this year - they've switched a guy back there who doesn't have high ball skills and their plan is to have Will Jordan covering it.
As for a kicking game this also would have been beneficial to him as a winger before he switched to midfield - Rieko would often be in the back field as cover with no kicking option to go to or not have a kick ahead option when the opportinity arose when he was put into space - not to mention another kicking option in the backline would always be an asset to his team and a string to his bow. Effectively it would have made him less one dimensional. Nonu didn't 'need' a kicking game either but he developed an excellent one over time. Heck even at a franchise level Lam in his first proper season at 12 this year displayed development of a kicking game.
Nonu played at 12 where a kicking game is required
Conrad Smith kicked very rarely.
Rieko Ioane has only had one full season on the wing for the Blues where the players develop their skills. The great majority of his Blues career was spent in the midfield and at center when the team went from chronic cellar dwellers to winning a SRT title, an SRP title and multiple semi finals.
Rieko Ioane was pretty much exclusively a left winger only for the ABs for three straight seasons 2017 - 2019, nearly 25 tests on the left wing with a handful of appearances from the bench - he had plenty of time to develop his skills under the high ball. Compare that with someone like Richard Kahui who only had one test start on the wing (in 2008) before the RWC - and in that RWC he showed real commitment under the high ball and with his kick chase.
Again - this isn't exclusively a Rieko thing - how has Sevu Reece not improved under the high ball in all his time playing wing - and the coaches - how they do they stick two poor players under the high ball on the wing? There's fault all around.
