All Blacks 2025
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
It's not even possible to build depth to four players in each position. There just isn't enough game time to get every player enough experience - and recent experience if they get the call up - to be accustomed to test rugby. A couple of caps against Japan or ten minutes at a time here and there doesn't cut it.
I don't think it's necessarily all about game time and it's certainly not about having four equal and interchangeable options. And it's not an easy thing to do if you're starting from near scratch - e.g. at halfback (though already we have Roigard, Hotham, Christie and Ratima - any of whom the coaches appear comfortable starting against the Boks).
But, at hooker, for example - we have Taylor, Tahei'aho, Aumua, McAllister and Bell - all as capped All Blacks. And the first three have played enough tests now to slot in if required. He needs to give one of the other two enough game time to be comfortable as the fourth option. But, someone like Bell has spent a season already in the AB environment. He may not have match minutes on the clock, but he should be comfortable in the environment, know the drills and how everything works. Not be like parachuting in having never been there before.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
It's not even possible to build depth to four players in each position. There just isn't enough game time to get every player enough experience - and recent experience if they get the call up - to be accustomed to test rugby. A couple of caps against Japan or ten minutes at a time here and there doesn't cut it.
I don't think it's necessarily all about game time and it's certainly not about having four equal and interchangeable options. And it's not an easy thing to do if you're starting from near scratch - e.g. at halfback (though already we have Roigard, Hotham, Christie and Ratima - any of whom the coaches appear comfortable starting against the Boks).
But, at hooker, for example - we have Taylor, Tahei'aho, Aumua, McAllister and Bell - all as capped All Blacks. And the first three have played enough tests now to slot in if required. He needs to give one of the other two enough game time to be comfortable as the fourth option. But, someone like Bell has spent a season already in the AB environment. He may not have match minutes on the clock, but he should be comfortable in the environment, know the drills and how everything works. Not be like parachuting in having never been there before.
He doesn't need to force game time to develop depth.
McAllister is naturally getting more game time due to unavailability.
Players like McAllister shouldn't just be handed tests in the RC for the point of depth development when we have only won 5 out 9 RC games under Razor's tenure.
We need to play our best players that are available.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
It's not even possible to build depth to four players in each position. There just isn't enough game time to get every player enough experience - and recent experience if they get the call up - to be accustomed to test rugby. A couple of caps against Japan or ten minutes at a time here and there doesn't cut it.
I don't think it's necessarily all about game time and it's certainly not about having four equal and interchangeable options. And it's not an easy thing to do if you're starting from near scratch - e.g. at halfback (though already we have Roigard, Hotham, Christie and Ratima - any of whom the coaches appear comfortable starting against the Boks).
But, at hooker, for example - we have Taylor, Tahei'aho, Aumua, McAllister and Bell - all as capped All Blacks. And the first three have played enough tests now to slot in if required. He needs to give one of the other two enough game time to be comfortable as the fourth option. But, someone like Bell has spent a season already in the AB environment. He may not have match minutes on the clock, but he should be comfortable in the environment, know the drills and how everything works. Not be like parachuting in having never been there before.
He doesn't need to force game time to develop depth.
McAllister is naturally getting more game time due to unavailability.
Players like McAllister shouldn't just be handed tests in the RC for the point of depth development when we have only won 5 out 9 RC games under Razor's tenure.
We need to play our best players that are available.
@brodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Players like McAllister shouldn't just be handed tests in the RC for the point of depth development
he isnt being handed a test just for development, he is there due to injuries.
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@brodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Players like McAllister shouldn't just be handed tests in the RC for the point of depth development
he isnt being handed a test just for development, he is there due to injuries.
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@brodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Players like McAllister shouldn't just be handed tests in the RC for the point of depth development
he isnt being handed a test just for development, he is there due to injuries.
Yeah, that is my point, he is getting game time due to injury and that should be enough for his development at the moment if he's clearly below the other 3.
Injury will provide development opportunities.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
It's not even possible to build depth to four players in each position. There just isn't enough game time to get every player enough experience - and recent experience if they get the call up - to be accustomed to test rugby. A couple of caps against Japan or ten minutes at a time here and there doesn't cut it.
I don't think it's necessarily all about game time and it's certainly not about having four equal and interchangeable options. And it's not an easy thing to do if you're starting from near scratch - e.g. at halfback (though already we have Roigard, Hotham, Christie and Ratima - any of whom the coaches appear comfortable starting against the Boks).
But, at hooker, for example - we have Taylor, Tahei'aho, Aumua, McAllister and Bell - all as capped All Blacks. And the first three have played enough tests now to slot in if required. He needs to give one of the other two enough game time to be comfortable as the fourth option. But, someone like Bell has spent a season already in the AB environment. He may not have match minutes on the clock, but he should be comfortable in the environment, know the drills and how everything works. Not be like parachuting in having never been there before.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
It's not even possible to build depth to four players in each position. There just isn't enough game time to get every player enough experience - and recent experience if they get the call up - to be accustomed to test rugby. A couple of caps against Japan or ten minutes at a time here and there doesn't cut it.
I don't think it's necessarily all about game time and it's certainly not about having four equal and interchangeable options. And it's not an easy thing to do if you're starting from near scratch - e.g. at halfback (though already we have Roigard, Hotham, Christie and Ratima - any of whom the coaches appear comfortable starting against the Boks).
But, at hooker, for example - we have Taylor, Tahei'aho, Aumua, McAllister and Bell - all as capped All Blacks. And the first three have played enough tests now to slot in if required. He needs to give one of the other two enough game time to be comfortable as the fourth option. But, someone like Bell has spent a season already in the AB environment. He may not have match minutes on the clock, but he should be comfortable in the environment, know the drills and how everything works. Not be like parachuting in having never been there before.
Well they have to select someone.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Wonder what's happened to the Vaa'i at 6 experiment?
Parker.
Plus Vaai will be the captain by 2027...
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Wonder what's happened to the Vaa'i at 6 experiment?
Parker.
Plus Vaai will be the captain by 2027...
He can’t be, he claps after we win the ball.
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Wonder what's happened to the Vaa'i at 6 experiment?
Parker.
Plus Vaai will be the captain by 2027...
He can’t be, he claps after we win the ball.
@ACT-Crusader well wasnt it after we were lucky enough to defuse thier lethal mid-field lineout, so maybe it was more a laugh-clap, he shoulda slapped his knee too...
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@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Except at 10 of course, he's sure as shit not building depth there, or encouraging players to stick around.
I agree with you in principle but I suppose he thinks he’s got 3 already…throw in Love and he’s got his 4.
@Snowy said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Except at 10 of course, he's sure as shit not building depth there, or encouraging players to stick around.
I agree with you in principle but I suppose he thinks he’s got 3 already…throw in Love and he’s got his 4.
I think 2 will be pretty close to the age that the great Dan Carter retired at by the next WC, and our current incumbent is older than that right now?
On top of that, you could mount an argument that at least 2 and maybe all 3 of them are fairly reliant on their pace and acceleration for their (supposed) effectiveness - as opposed to Carter's game management - which is a touch more resilient to the indignities of old age. -
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Wonder what's happened to the Vaa'i at 6 experiment?
Parker.
Plus Vaai will be the captain by 2027...
He can’t be, he claps after we win the ball.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@Bones said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Wonder what's happened to the Vaa'i at 6 experiment?
Parker.
Plus Vaai will be the captain by 2027...
He can’t be, he claps after we win the ball.
I love a bit of passion. For a while there we became too reserved and conservative (and relinquished ranking number one)
We're back! -
He needs to experiment at 10 this year. That is non negotiable
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He needs to experiment at 10 this year. That is non negotiable
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
He needs to experiment at 10 this year. That is non negotiable
we know he wont though, he has RM coming back and DMac and BB currently his go too
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@Snowy said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Except at 10 of course, he's sure as shit not building depth there, or encouraging players to stick around.
I agree with you in principle but I suppose he thinks he’s got 3 already…throw in Love and he’s got his 4.
I think 2 will be pretty close to the age that the great Dan Carter retired at by the next WC, and our current incumbent is older than that right now?
On top of that, you could mount an argument that at least 2 and maybe all 3 of them are fairly reliant on their pace and acceleration for their (supposed) effectiveness - as opposed to Carter's game management - which is a touch more resilient to the indignities of old age.@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@Snowy said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Except at 10 of course, he's sure as shit not building depth there, or encouraging players to stick around.
I agree with you in principle but I suppose he thinks he’s got 3 already…throw in Love and he’s got his 4.
I think 2 will be pretty close to the age that the great Dan Carter retired at by the next WC, and our current incumbent is older than that right now?
On top of that, you could mount an argument that at least 2 and maybe all 3 of them are fairly reliant on their pace and acceleration for their (supposed) effectiveness - as opposed to Carter's game management - which is a touch more resilient to the indignities of old age. -
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@brodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Players like McAllister shouldn't just be handed tests in the RC for the point of depth development
he isnt being handed a test just for development, he is there due to injuries.
Yeah, that is my point, he is getting game time due to injury and that should be enough for his development at the moment if he's clearly below the other 3.
Injury will provide development opportunities.
@brodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@brodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Players like McAllister shouldn't just be handed tests in the RC for the point of depth development
he isnt being handed a test just for development, he is there due to injuries.
Yeah, that is my point, he is getting game time due to injury and that should be enough for his development at the moment if he's clearly below the other 3.
Injury will provide development opportunities.
Yeah - to an extent I agree with you. But, there's a stoney silence today from those who've been criticising lack of development.
When we're playing these big tests we should be playing our best available team and I don't want to see any "giving him a go".
But, development is also part of the job. If by happy chance, we have TRC and Bled wrapped up after the next two tests, I've got no problem with them rolling out some of the dirty-dirties - and if we happen to lose so-be-it.
If we would get to the World Cup Final and suddenly be required to start Brodie McAlister -having played only three tests - I wouldn't find it excusable for Razor to say, "Brodie never got to play because we didn't ever have enough injuries". We've got to have a better plan than that!
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Meh, I'm firmly in the camp of impress at training. Players shouldn't be given caps for the hell of it.
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Meh, I'm firmly in the camp of impress at training. Players shouldn't be given caps for the hell of it.
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Meh, I'm firmly in the camp of impress at training. Players shouldn't be given caps for the hell of it.
I doubt many guys who got to this point are arseing about at training.
As a test - do you think Razor made a good decision playing his best available team vs Italy, last year?
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@brodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@brodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Players like McAllister shouldn't just be handed tests in the RC for the point of depth development
he isnt being handed a test just for development, he is there due to injuries.
Yeah, that is my point, he is getting game time due to injury and that should be enough for his development at the moment if he's clearly below the other 3.
Injury will provide development opportunities.
Yeah - to an extent I agree with you. But, there's a stoney silence today from those who've been criticising lack of development.
When we're playing these big tests we should be playing our best available team and I don't want to see any "giving him a go".
But, development is also part of the job. If by happy chance, we have TRC and Bled wrapped up after the next two tests, I've got no problem with them rolling out some of the dirty-dirties - and if we happen to lose so-be-it.
If we would get to the World Cup Final and suddenly be required to start Brodie McAlister -having played only three tests - I wouldn't find it excusable for Razor to say, "Brodie never got to play because we didn't ever have enough injuries". We've got to have a better plan than that!
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@brodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@brodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Players like McAllister shouldn't just be handed tests in the RC for the point of depth development
he isnt being handed a test just for development, he is there due to injuries.
Yeah, that is my point, he is getting game time due to injury and that should be enough for his development at the moment if he's clearly below the other 3.
Injury will provide development opportunities.
Yeah - to an extent I agree with you. But, there's a stoney silence today from those who've been criticising lack of development.
When we're playing these big tests we should be playing our best available team and I don't want to see any "giving him a go".
But, development is also part of the job. If by happy chance, we have TRC and Bled wrapped up after the next two tests, I've got no problem with them rolling out some of the dirty-dirties - and if we happen to lose so-be-it.
If we would get to the World Cup Final and suddenly be required to start Brodie McAlister -having played only three tests - I wouldn't find it excusable for Razor to say, "Brodie never got to play because we didn't ever have enough injuries". We've got to have a better plan than that!
Development should be one or two guys coming into the first team, or swapping from bench to start. Not rolling out an entire B team once the important games are finished. We learn nothing about their response to pressure, all the combinations are a mess, and the 5 or so guys who may well be genuinely better than the incumbents consequently look worse than the incumbents.
We see this regularly. The B team gets rolled out and looks shit, and it's all 'oh well nobody put their hand up'. Then if someone gets injured in the A team and one of those B guys gets a decent run, all of a sudden they look great and often become the new starter - or at least a player we have genuine confidence in for staring big games. Frankly it's just poor coaching/selection. -
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Meh, I'm firmly in the camp of impress at training. Players shouldn't be given caps for the hell of it.
I doubt many guys who got to this point are arseing about at training.
As a test - do you think Razor made a good decision playing his best available team vs Italy, last year?
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Meh, I'm firmly in the camp of impress at training. Players shouldn't be given caps for the hell of it.
I doubt many guys who got to this point are arseing about at training.
That's a fucking odd response. "Giving 100%" at training doesn't entitle you to a participation cap.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Meh, I'm firmly in the camp of impress at training. Players shouldn't be given caps for the hell of it.
I doubt many guys who got to this point are arseing about at training.
That's a fucking odd response. "Giving 100%" at training doesn't entitle you to a participation cap.
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Meh, I'm firmly in the camp of impress at training. Players shouldn't be given caps for the hell of it.
I doubt many guys who got to this point are arseing about at training.
That's a fucking odd response. "Giving 100%" at training doesn't entitle you to a participation cap.
That's a fucking hostile response.
If you've got to be one of the 36 best players in the country, I expect they're trying to impress at training - which your "Meh" seems pretty dismissive of.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Meh, I'm firmly in the camp of impress at training. Players shouldn't be given caps for the hell of it.
I doubt many guys who got to this point are arseing about at training.
That's a fucking odd response. "Giving 100%" at training doesn't entitle you to a participation cap.
That's a fucking hostile response.
If you've got to be one of the 36 best players in the country, I expect they're trying to impress at training - which your "Meh" seems pretty dismissive of.
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Meh, I'm firmly in the camp of impress at training. Players shouldn't be given caps for the hell of it.
I doubt many guys who got to this point are arseing about at training.
That's a fucking odd response. "Giving 100%" at training doesn't entitle you to a participation cap.
That's a fucking hostile response.
LOL if you think that's hostile.
If you've got to be one of the 36 best players in the country, I expect they're trying to impress at training - which your "Meh" seems pretty dismissive of.
They have to impress against their peers, staking a claim that they deserve the spot in the 23.
