What is decline?
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@sparky said in What is decline?:
Pick the best players even if they aren't the sort of blokes you'd see on a cover of a women's magazine or you'd want you daughter to be dating.
Akira Ioane, Bundee Aki, Hoskins Sotutu, James Lowe. All guys we turned our nose up at.
Stop trying to turn our Rugby Players into nice young men. Next time we play the Boks I want 23 absolute fluffybunnies out there wearing Black hell-bent on revenge.
Beaudy nearly put in a wheelchair and not one Allblack grabbed a collar.
Wiese mills Nugget out of it after the whistle. Knew what he was doing but had plausible deniability.
The only one to immediately take issue is Frizell.
Look from how far back De Allende and Mapimpi come to get involved.
Watch out current captain (hands on hips) walking to the schmozzle and not getting involved.
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@canefan said in What is decline?:
@Kirwan said in What is decline?:
@canefan said in What is decline?:
@Kirwan said in What is decline?:
@canefan said in What is decline?:
@Kirwan said in What is decline?:
Obsession with entertainment over winning. Blues under Vern showed a pragmatic, even dull style can be extremely effective.
Pick a big forward back, play territory, and brutalise teams up the middle before going wide.
Pick a smart, calm captain. Ideally not a fucking idiot that chip kicks from his 22.
The biggest change is the acceptance of losing. It used to to a big deal, but the last five years that has eroded away. Savea was smiling after that last game!
Looks like just a job now for some of the players, or in the case of the players like Leicester Faingaʻanuku/Richie Mounga, a stepping stone to earn cash overseas and swan back for a World Cup.
The year the Blues won, the Canes and Chiefs also played forward dominated rugby, which I thought was great.
Is it any coincidence that the Blues win with Plummer, and don't with BB? I am sure it is far too simplistic. But even now I seem to be in the minority of people even on here that will wonder what might have been if Plummer had been given a go in the ABs 10 jersey. A guy with his skill set is what we need right now. But that only works if the coaches pull their heads out of their asses and get back to fundamentally sound rugby
Without getting into player specific comparisons, we definitely look for a magician instead of a conductor style 1st five.
I blame Dan Carter
Yep, was going to add that as well. Could do it all.
When people look at DC, and by extension the 2015 team, they see the flowing rugby. Of course they forget how ruthless and hardnosed they were. And they forget DC was as fundamentally sound as anyone who has played the position. And he was a magician
He was plenty boring when he needed to be. And could truck it up in traffic.
And could put you on your arse and flog the ball off you.
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@sparky said in What is decline?:
Pick the best players even if they aren't the sort of blokes you'd see on a cover of a women's magazine or you'd want you daughter to be dating.
Akira Ioane, Bundee Aki, Hoskins Sotutu, James Lowe. All guys we turned our nose up at.
Stop trying to turn our Rugby Players into nice young men. Next time we play the Boks I want 23 absolute fluffybunnies out there wearing Black hell-bent on revenge.
There is so much truth to this.
I think it was Henry that introduced the idea of "good people make good All Blacks" which is to an extent true in that you need people that are honest, accountable, respectful in your team for it to function well and for the public to buy into.
But you also need pricks and I remember in Irelands win.v England this year James lowe acted like an asshole, getting into people's faces, being physical.and talking shit. You need that mentality if you want to win.
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2000 too many words to say any team picking their 7 and 8 to make wide passes on the end of a chain doesn't really understand rugby.
We're basically outflanking ourselves with this "innovation". When it works it's going to look beautiful. But an awful lot has to go right for it to work.
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Henry, Hansen and Smith worked well together because they challenged each other. I see similarities between how Wayne Smith’s ABs played and how Razor’s ABs play. It is one thing to back your skills, another to fundamentally forget that you need to lay a forward platform first. Henry got that, which is why he was the right person to lead that triumvirate.
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@stodders said in What is decline?:
Henry, Hansen and Smith worked well together because they challenged each other. I see similarities between how Wayne Smith’s ABs played and how Razor’s ABs play. It is one thing to back your skills, another to fundamentally forget that you need to lay a forward platform first. Henry got that, which is why he was the right person to lead that triumvirate.
It feels like Razor is following Smith's principles, but has lost sight of the big picture (unlike Henry). Or he is a chancer who won with stacked teams who is now being found out....
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@canefan said in What is decline?:
@stodders said in What is decline?:
Henry, Hansen and Smith worked well together because they challenged each other. I see similarities between how Wayne Smith’s ABs played and how Razor’s ABs play. It is one thing to back your skills, another to fundamentally forget that you need to lay a forward platform first. Henry got that, which is why he was the right person to lead that triumvirate.
It feels like Razor is following Smith's principles, but has lost sight of the big picture (unlike Henry). Or he is a chancer who won with stacked teams who is now being found out....
I think some people need to work with their teams through a regular season, building to the play offs.
Others work well at international level where the time you spend with players is less frequent which challenges your communication.
Razor was great with the Crusaders. That can’t be taken from him. His record backs it up. But he has shown that the step up to international level is a significant one.
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@kpkanz said in What is decline?:
@Mauss Great post.
Our main issue is our religious adherence to kicking the ball away.
We actually beat the defence numerous times last night (also many times where Dmacs superior passing produced the try/opportunity).
I actually believe our players still have the skillset (evidenced by the first try), but we have not been moving the ball this way for 5 years.
We have been afraid to, more content to play without the ball rather than risk an intercept or turnover.
I actually think the Kolbe intercept was a much bigger moment than people realize.
If the pass goes there, it's another try and the score is 14-0 NZ.
But instead, not only did SA score against the run of play.. but we completely shelved the passing plays in favor of box kicks once again, as if the intercept proved we cannot play that way, and just allowed SA to attack for the next 40-50 minutes with very little recourse.
It would have been pulled back for a Christie knock on so a moot point IMHO
But I understand your thought process
If anything, the mistake was playing the pattern not reading the defence
As evidenced by Jordan passing when he should have put his foot on the gas
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@canefan said in What is decline?:
@stodders said in What is decline?:
Henry, Hansen and Smith worked well together because they challenged each other. I see similarities between how Wayne Smith’s ABs played and how Razor’s ABs play. It is one thing to back your skills, another to fundamentally forget that you need to lay a forward platform first. Henry got that, which is why he was the right person to lead that triumvirate.
It feels like Razor is following Smith's principles, but has lost sight of the big picture (unlike Henry). Or he is a chancer who won with stacked teams who is now being found out....
A point that posters have made here a lot and one that I agree with 100% is that i think any future ABs coach needs experience overseas. They need to have struggled in a foreign environment, dealing with all the adversity that entails.
Being very successful in NPC or super rugby is a credible achievement but you need to see how coaches do outside of that comfort zone.
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@Jet said in What is decline?:
@sparky said in What is decline?:
Pick the best players even if they aren't the sort of blokes you'd see on a cover of a women's magazine or you'd want you daughter to be dating.
Akira Ioane, Bundee Aki, Hoskins Sotutu, James Lowe. All guys we turned our nose up at.
Stop trying to turn our Rugby Players into nice young men. Next time we play the Boks I want 23 absolute fluffybunnies out there wearing Black hell-bent on revenge.
Cobus Reinach was pushing our boys around the place and feeling collars. Both this week and last week.
The fucking scrum half.
Most teams work off 10, some work off 9
Eg SA (when Pollard’s not playing) and France
When you have a team who work off 9 against a team with a 4th choice 9 then you’re already behind the 8 ball
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@Kirwan said in What is decline?:
@canefan said in What is decline?:
@Kirwan said in What is decline?:
@canefan said in What is decline?:
@Kirwan said in What is decline?:
Obsession with entertainment over winning. Blues under Vern showed a pragmatic, even dull style can be extremely effective.
Pick a big forward back, play territory, and brutalise teams up the middle before going wide.
Pick a smart, calm captain. Ideally not a fucking idiot that chip kicks from his 22.
The biggest change is the acceptance of losing. It used to to a big deal, but the last five years that has eroded away. Savea was smiling after that last game!
Looks like just a job now for some of the players, or in the case of the players like Leicester Faingaʻanuku/Richie Mounga, a stepping stone to earn cash overseas and swan back for a World Cup.
The year the Blues won, the Canes and Chiefs also played forward dominated rugby, which I thought was great.
Is it any coincidence that the Blues win with Plummer, and don't with BB? I am sure it is far too simplistic. But even now I seem to be in the minority of people even on here that will wonder what might have been if Plummer had been given a go in the ABs 10 jersey. A guy with his skill set is what we need right now. But that only works if the coaches pull their heads out of their asses and get back to fundamentally sound rugby
Without getting into player specific comparisons, we definitely look for a magician instead of a conductor style 1st five.
I blame Dan Carter
Yep, was going to add that as well. Could do it all.
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@Jet said in What is decline?:
@sparky said in What is decline?:
Pick the best players even if they aren't the sort of blokes you'd see on a cover of a women's magazine or you'd want you daughter to be dating.
Akira Ioane, Bundee Aki, Hoskins Sotutu, James Lowe. All guys we turned our nose up at.
Stop trying to turn our Rugby Players into nice young men. Next time we play the Boks I want 23 absolute fluffybunnies out there wearing Black hell-bent on revenge.
Not the best example
Blindside would get a YC and an off field review
Thorn would be straight red with a good few weeks sit down
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@nonpartizan said in What is decline?:
@canefan said in What is decline?:
@stodders said in What is decline?:
Henry, Hansen and Smith worked well together because they challenged each other. I see similarities between how Wayne Smith’s ABs played and how Razor’s ABs play. It is one thing to back your skills, another to fundamentally forget that you need to lay a forward platform first. Henry got that, which is why he was the right person to lead that triumvirate.
It feels like Razor is following Smith's principles, but has lost sight of the big picture (unlike Henry). Or he is a chancer who won with stacked teams who is now being found out....
A point that posters have made here a lot and one that I agree with 100% is that i think any future ABs coach needs experience overseas. They need to have struggled in a foreign environment, dealing with all the adversity that entails.
Being very successful in NPC or super rugby is a credible achievement but you need to see how coaches do outside of that comfort zone.
Henry and Hansen were better for coaching Wales
Wales too obviously
They had great ideas and game plans but had to refine them based on the skill set and size of the cattle
They brought this simplified coaching back to NZ where the cattle were more skilled, bigger and fitter and the rest as they say is history
Kiss
Not Les Kiss
Keep It Simple Stupid
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@Mauss said in What is decline?:
All I remember is a perfectly chiselled jaw, a beautiful mane of black hair touched by shades of grey and the most tidy execution of draw and pass..
Bloody hell, you've just turned rugby into 50 shades of ballplay!
...
They would do well to remember a player like Richard Kahui
Sold! Kahui for ABs backline coach.
I disagree that Spengler's book was a moral foray but the rest of this post was excellent.
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@MiketheSnow said in What is decline?:
@Jet said in What is decline?:
@sparky said in What is decline?:
Pick the best players even if they aren't the sort of blokes you'd see on a cover of a women's magazine or you'd want you daughter to be dating.
Akira Ioane, Bundee Aki, Hoskins Sotutu, James Lowe. All guys we turned our nose up at.
Stop trying to turn our Rugby Players into nice young men. Next time we play the Boks I want 23 absolute fluffybunnies out there wearing Black hell-bent on revenge.
Cobus Reinach was pushing our boys around the place and feeling collars. Both this week and last week.
The fucking scrum half.
Most teams work off 10, some work off 9
Eg SA (when Pollard’s not playing) and France
When you have a team who work off 9 against a team with a 4th choice 9 then you’re already behind the 8 ball
I mean in the scuffle stakes.
He was causing argie bargie the whole time. And we just let him.
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@Jet said in What is decline?:
@MiketheSnow said in What is decline?:
@Jet said in What is decline?:
@sparky said in What is decline?:
Pick the best players even if they aren't the sort of blokes you'd see on a cover of a women's magazine or you'd want you daughter to be dating.
Akira Ioane, Bundee Aki, Hoskins Sotutu, James Lowe. All guys we turned our nose up at.
Stop trying to turn our Rugby Players into nice young men. Next time we play the Boks I want 23 absolute fluffybunnies out there wearing Black hell-bent on revenge.
Cobus Reinach was pushing our boys around the place and feeling collars. Both this week and last week.
The fucking scrum half.
Most teams work off 10, some work off 9
Eg SA (when Pollard’s not playing) and France
When you have a team who work off 9 against a team with a 4th choice 9 then you’re already behind the 8 ball
I mean in the scuffle stakes.
He was causing argie bargie the whole time. And we just let him.
Agreed
My point still stands
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Decline is relative.
The ABs have declined a little bit in the last decade, but they still have the no. 1 ranking (might be different tomorrow, WR do the calculation on a Monday).
What has changed in the last decade is that some of their opposition is a lot lot more F'n difficult to deal with.Gone are the days when they could run onto the field, play a high tempo passing game, back their individual skills, and beat everyone all the time, with an occasional trip up.
The trip ups coinciding with the opposition managing to slow them down.
They trip up all the time now.Not sure exactly what their game plan is at the mo.
They do have one; but we cant see it work because the other teams just wont let them use it!
Pretty sure that there is just too much plan anyway, and probably a bit naive (and maybe arrogant?).
Like the Boks stopped them doing what they wanted to do on the weekend, and then they went Oh . . . We got nuttin!
And sooked it up.Keep it simple; secure your own set piece, go for field position, (DONT DROP THE F'N BALL) then just F'n power it (NO F'n CARDS!).
Only go for the skill game when, for those few moments (like turnovers), the game loses structure.
Waiting for a moment; not trying to make a moment (like you did in the Under 15's).Havin said all that; some of the players on the nice contracts currently, are probably not suited to a 'keep it simple' plan, so . . .
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@sparky said in What is decline?:
Pick the best players even if they aren't the sort of blokes you'd see on a cover of a women's magazine or you'd want you daughter to be dating.
Akira Ioane, Bundee Aki, Hoskins Sotutu, James Lowe. All guys we turned our nose up at.
Stop trying to turn our Rugby Players into nice young men. Next time we play the Boks I want 23 absolute fluffybunnies out there wearing Black hell-bent on revenge.
You know the more I read this post, the more I agree with it and I agreed with it to begin with.
I'm just wrapping my head around the fact that Sevu Reece is an All Black and James Lowe plays for Ireland.
I know who I would rather go into battle with.
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@mohikamo said in What is decline?:
Decline is relative.
The ABs have declined a little bit in the last decade, but they still have the no. 1 ranking (might be different tomorrow, WR do the calculation on a Monday).
What has changed in the last decade is that some of their opposition is a lot lot more F'n difficult to deal with.Gone are the days when they could run onto the field, play a high tempo passing game, back their individual skills, and beat everyone all the time, with an occasional trip up.
The trip ups coinciding with the opposition managing to slow them down.
They trip up all the time now.Not sure exactly what their game plan is at the mo.
They do have one; but we cant see it work because the other teams just wont let them use it!
Pretty sure that there is just too much plan anyway, and probably a bit naive (and maybe arrogant?).
Like the Boks stopped them doing what they wanted to do on the weekend, and then they went Oh . . . We got nuttin!
And sooked it up.Keep it simple; secure your own set piece, go for field position, (DONT DROP THE F'N BALL) then just F'n power it (NO F'n CARDS!).
Only go for the skill game when, for those few moments (like turnovers), the game loses structure.
Waiting for a moment; not trying to make a moment (like you did in the Under 15's).Havin said all that; some of the players on the nice contracts currently, are probably not suited to a 'keep it simple' plan, so . . .
When you talk about a power game (with our poor high ball skills in mind), would something like this work?
9 Roigard
10
11 Clarke
12 Tupea or Tavatavanawai
13 Faingaʻanuku
14 Jordan
15 Jordie
