What is decline?
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@mohikamo said in What is decline?:
Decline is relative.
The ABs have declined a little bit in the last decade, but they still have the no. 1 ranking (might be different tomorrow, WR do the calculation on a Monday).
What has changed in the last decade is that some of their opposition is a lot lot more F'n difficult to deal with.Gone are the days when they could run onto the field, play a high tempo passing game, back their individual skills, and beat everyone all the time, with an occasional trip up.
The trip ups coinciding with the opposition managing to slow them down.
They trip up all the time now.Not sure exactly what their game plan is at the mo.
They do have one; but we cant see it work because the other teams just wont let them use it!
Pretty sure that there is just too much plan anyway, and probably a bit naive (and maybe arrogant?).
Like the Boks stopped them doing what they wanted to do on the weekend, and then they went Oh . . . We got nuttin!
And sooked it up.Keep it simple; secure your own set piece, go for field position, (DONT DROP THE F'N BALL) then just F'n power it (NO F'n CARDS!).
Only go for the skill game when, for those few moments (like turnovers), the game loses structure.
Waiting for a moment; not trying to make a moment (like you did in the Under 15's).Havin said all that; some of the players on the nice contracts currently, are probably not suited to a 'keep it simple' plan, so . . .
Depends on how you are measuring this team. In terms of talent, it's an average AB team but possibly not that much worse than what we have rolled out historically. If you are comparing it to our generational team from 2010-2015 however, we have declined massively. How many of the current squad would make a combined 23? Taylor, Roigard, Ardie and one of the props would make the bench. I don't think one guy from this current team would be in the starting lineup.
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@Mauss said in What is decline?:
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
2000 too many words to say any team picking their 7 and 8 to make wide passes on the end of a chain doesn't really understand rugby.
We're basically outflanking ourselves with this "innovation". When it works it's going to look beautiful. But an awful lot has to go right for it to work.
I agree with the second part but not with the first. I think if you have a Kieran Read or a Hoskins Sotutu there, then it makes sense. They have hands as good as any back out there. Savea and Sititi, not so much.
And I'm disappointed you weren't able to appreciate my Richard Kahui fanfic. The state of Chiefs fans these days.
a week ago Sititi threw a sexy inside pop pass for our best try. Do 100% agree Hoskins has great hands, but again, short passing.
Our former, but no longer, point of difference was not forwards who sould throw wide passes (except Zinny of course) it was the micro skills of our tight forwards. Locks who could pop a pass in to a gap. Props able to make that quick transfer pass across their body. Now every team has those players, and there is a very real argument that we do not. My problems with Sititi and Savea are not their handling skills.
And your Kahui fan fic didn't get much attention because it was PG compared to the one i have written and published on literotica.com involving him, SBW and Messam.
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Stephenson was not as good in his final year. But that year he was hot he should have played. You see BB's defense on the weekend? Missed the tackle for the big break out. Bumped off like a toddler for a try. Appalling. Will be completely overlooked.
I 100% agree with the point made that we don't seem to back ourselves to improve skill players in other areas, preferring to bring up hard workers and hope to teach them skill.
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@kpkanz said in What is decline?:
Our main issue is our religious adherence to kicking the ball away.
although, if we had a good aerial game and a better defensive line, this would actually not be an issue.
Our glaring weaknesses of kicking and our aerial game is impacting everything else.
Our chasers arent fully committing to the chase, meaning there is little pressure on the defender taking it, so they can drop back for force back, pass in field to someone else as they prep to chase the kick and put us under pressure to either kick short into touch, throw a silly pass, drop it, or simply return another aimless kick.
Whereas thier kicking has a goal, they are moving our players about, probing, and when the moment right, they opt to run it, or if nothing comes of it, kick it out, but usually with a net-gain.
Long gone are the days you dont want to kick it to our back 3.
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@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
And your Kahui fan fic didn't get much attention because it was PG compared to the one i have written and published on literotica.com involving him, SBW and Messam.
And yourself, don't forget.
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@NTA said in What is decline?:
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
And your Kahui fan fic didn't get much attention because it was PG compared to the one i have written and published on literotica.com involving him, SBW and Messam.
And yourself, don't forget.
just watching from the shadows
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@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
Do 100% agree Hoskins has great hands, but again, short passing.
He has great long passes. It something he does that no other loose forward in NZ does
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ok fuck, Hoskins Sotutu is our lord and saviour. happy blues fans?
I don't give a shit about his hands, i like him because he actually hits on to the ball, which brings his passing game in to play. I am sick to death of NZ forwards who receive the ball standing still, and then try and stutter step through contact, or think leg drive is the be all and end all.
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@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
I am sick to death of NZ forwards who receive the ball standing still, and then try and stutter step through contact, or think leg drive is the be all and end all.
Our backs will often take the ball while standing still too, such a contrast to the Bokke in that 2nd half where they were playing with such pace, we had no answer apart from giving it back to them to watch and marvel.
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@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
ok fuck, Hoskins Sotutu is our lord and saviour. happy blues fans?
Calm down. You described his passing game incorrectly.. he has a wide passing game that other loosies don't
Not a particularly controversial point
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@taniwharugby said in What is decline?:
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
I am sick to death of NZ forwards who receive the ball standing still, and then try and stutter step through contact, or think leg drive is the be all and end all.
Our backs will often take the ball while standing still too, such a contrast to the Bokke in that 2nd half where they were playing with such pace, we had no answer apart from giving it back to them to watch and marvel.
yeah i see that too. Is it do do with a slow pass 9, a shovelling 10, and the resulting timing issues? i dunno, i have never coached a backline
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@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
ok fuck, Hoskins Sotutu is our lord and saviour. happy blues fans?
I don't give a shit about his hands, i like him because he actually hits on to the ball, which brings his passing game in to play. I am sick to death of NZ forwards who receive the ball standing still, and then try and stutter step through contact, or think leg drive is the be all and end all.
Well you said something provably wrong, expect to get called on it.
Sotutu has a great passing game because of his time in the backline. He's also a big body, does the dirty work, hits rucks and scores trys.
Also has the kicking game Savea thinks he has.
If he played for any other franchise he'd be in the squad.
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two things
I have been calling for him to be our starting #8 for 2 years
As i have said, his passing game is not why, i couldn't give a shit if he has Andrew Johns' wide pass, i want loose forwards who make physical differences. The rest is icing.
Also if he ever kicked the ball in a test i would want him exiled from the country let alone dropped. -
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
two things
I have been calling for him to be our starting #8 for 2 years
As i have said, his passing game is not why, i couldn't give a shit if he has Andrew Johns' wide pass, i want loose forwards who make physical differences. The rest is icing.
Also if he ever kicked the ball in a test i would want him exiled from the country let alone dropped.Yeah fuck forwards that kick;
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@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
Also if he ever kicked the ball in a test i would want him exiled from the country let alone dropped.
best I can do is a chip kick less than 10 m from the tryline as captain.
Take it or leave it.
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@nzzp said in What is decline?:
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
Also if he ever kicked the ball in a test i would want him exiled from the country let alone dropped.
best I can do is a chip kick less than 10 m from the tryline as captain.
Take it or leave it.
not accepted unless it's in a youtube highlight reel with a sick beat over the top (result edited out).
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@Kirwan said in What is decline?:
@mariner4life said in What is decline?:
two things
I have been calling for him to be our starting #8 for 2 years
As i have said, his passing game is not why, i couldn't give a shit if he has Andrew Johns' wide pass, i want loose forwards who make physical differences. The rest is icing.
Also if he ever kicked the ball in a test i would want him exiled from the country let alone dropped.Yeah fuck forwards that kick;
hoskins is not Zinny. And never will be.
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it truly amazing, someone states something thats 95% compliment....immediately gets called out for the 5% that wasn't
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More to the point of the thread, did we lose our identity on Saturday night?
I get reading too much in one result is 24-hour news cycle shit, but it wasn't just Saturday, more that felt like the culmination of a few years.
And this isn't just about us no longer being the all-time team we were a decade ago either.What exactly are the All Blacks known for now? Once, we were the team that owned the championship minutes either side of half time, and at the death. Our superior fitness and skill level allowed us to break teams with withering bursts of points. Yes our basics were very good, but that merely set the stage for our skill players to hammer home points in bursts and break teams.
There was a team on Saturday who did that, and it wasn't us. So if we aren't the fittest. And we aren't the most skilled. And we aren't the most dangerous. And we have a creaky set piece. And we don't kick well. What exactly are we? Does this AB team even have an identity any more?
This isn't just on Razor either, i didn't really know what we were and what we were trying to do under Fozzie either.
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