All Blacks vs Springboks II
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Worth noting that the way the backline is setup the 13 doesn't make many passes
If the ball gets to the wing it's Jordie passing out the back to someone else who then passes to the wing. The centre plays flat so is the decoy if it's going wide.
If it does get to the centre, the vast majority of the time its to take it to the line
In this setup the centre often passes less than the wings
@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Worth noting that the way the backline is setup the 13 doesn't make many passes
If the ball gets to the wing it's Jordie passing out the back to someone else who then passes to the wing. The centre plays flat so is the decoy if it's going wide.
If it does get to the centre, the vast majority of the time its to take it to the line
In this setup the centre often passes less than the wings
Yep, I've been watching closely and Proctor has mostly been a dummy runner on attack and a man used as a first clean option when the likes of Jordie takes it into contact.
Can you get those stats? It would be also interesting to see how many times Proctor passed for the Canes compared to the ABs. Just totally different gameplans which isn't helping him progress and get comfortable in one of the hardest positions within the team.
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@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Here's the stats for what I was talking about above
What I get from those stats is tight forwards should not be passing that much in a game.
They should be hitting rucks, hitting mauls, with some carries.
The out the back stuff is horse shit. Its the same pattern the Crusaders played last year to their detriment. All of the strike runners end up running diagonally across the field and no one is running hard and straight onto the ball.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@African-Monkey would he be there if Jacobsen was fit? I don’t think so.
Whether or not he's in the 23 when Jacobson returns he takes up a spot that could go to someone else in the wider squad.
Meanwhile more tests tick over without Lakai getting a look and Lio Willie has been discarded from the squad.
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@African-Monkey would he be there if Jacobsen was fit? I don’t think so.
Whether or not he's in the 23 when Jacobson returns he takes up a spot that could go to someone else in the wider squad.
Meanwhile more tests tick over without Lakai getting a look and Lio Willie has been discarded from the squad.
Jacobson was probably the Chiefs best player this year but if he's not fit he shouldn't be in the squad.
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@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Worth noting that the way the backline is setup the 13 doesn't make many passes
If the ball gets to the wing it's Jordie passing out the back to someone else who then passes to the wing. The centre plays flat so is the decoy if it's going wide.
If it does get to the centre, the vast majority of the time its to take it to the line
In this setup the centre often passes less than the wings
Yep, I've been watching closely and Proctor has mostly been a dummy runner on attack and a man used as a first clean option when the likes of Jordie takes it into contact.
Can you get those stats? It would be also interesting to see how many times Proctor passed for the Canes compared to the ABs. Just totally different gameplans which isn't helping him progress and get comfortable in one of the hardest positions within the team.
@Canes4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Can you get those stats
Nothing that specific sorry
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
I wasn't that bothered by the intercept, that shit happens. The huge problem was we appeared to change our gameplan as a result and started kicking it a lot more, which led to the 2nd half disaster. Complete lack of leadership when a simple intercept makes you shelve a gameplan that was actually finding space.
People whinge about Rieko but I don't ever remember him throwing an intercept. Proctor is in there for his distribution game.
Proctor has zero try assists this season.
On another note Kirifi has won a single turnover.
@brodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
I wasn't that bothered by the intercept, that shit happens. The huge problem was we appeared to change our gameplan as a result and started kicking it a lot more, which led to the 2nd half disaster. Complete lack of leadership when a simple intercept makes you shelve a gameplan that was actually finding space.
People whinge about Rieko but I don't ever remember him throwing an intercept. Proctor is in there for his distribution game.
Proctor has zero try assists this season.
I said when people were clamouring for a "distributing centre" to replace Rieko that the vast majority of the problem was the way the attack was structured. I was often told I didn't know what I was talking about and Rieko was a winge in the wrong position who couldn't pass.
Their tune has fucking changed now.
On another note Kirifi has won a single turnover.
Yep - congrats your SR form got you the jersey you've coveted, but you're not Test material.
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@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Here's the stats for what I was talking about above
What I get from those stats is tight forwards should not be passing that much in a game.
They should be hitting rucks, hitting mauls, with some carries.
The out the back stuff is horse shit. Its the same pattern the Crusaders played last year to their detriment. All of the strike runners end up running diagonally across the field and no one is running hard and straight onto the ball.
@brodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
The out the back stuff is horse shit. Its the same pattern the Crusaders played last year to their detriment. All of the strike runners end up running diagonally across the field and no one is running hard and straight onto the ball.
seemed to work nicely in the first half. I thought it looked good
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@brodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
The out the back stuff is horse shit. Its the same pattern the Crusaders played last year to their detriment. All of the strike runners end up running diagonally across the field and no one is running hard and straight onto the ball.
seemed to work nicely in the first half. I thought it looked good
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@brodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
The out the back stuff is horse shit. Its the same pattern the Crusaders played last year to their detriment. All of the strike runners end up running diagonally across the field and no one is running hard and straight onto the ball.
seemed to work nicely in the first half. I thought it looked good
It does create space.
The Boks ran some NFL style plays and whilst it looks like obstruction it wasn’t called. We need more dummy runners rather than just one or two.
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@African-Monkey would he be there if Jacobsen was fit? I don’t think so.
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
@African-Monkey would he be there if Jacobsen was fit? I don’t think so.
For me, there's better versatile options out there. Kirifi is only a 7 and is a one trick pony in that 7 position.
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Worth noting that the way the backline is setup the 13 doesn't make many passes
If the ball gets to the wing it's Jordie passing out the back to someone else who then passes to the wing. The centre plays flat so is the decoy if it's going wide.
If it does get to the centre, the vast majority of the time its to take it to the line
In this setup the centre often passes less than the wings
@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Worth noting that the way the backline is setup the 13 doesn't make many passes
If the ball gets to the wing it's Jordie passing out the back to someone else who then passes to the wing. The centre plays flat so is the decoy if it's going wide.
If it does get to the centre, the vast majority of the time its to take it to the line
In this setup the centre often passes less than the wings
Which is mental
I played inside centre because I could put a man in space and I had no wheels
My outside centre was the man in space, and he had wheels
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@NTA said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
Fist half thoughts:
Early on the ABs looked good if a little shaky under line speed pressure.
The first AB try was very nice. The intercept from Kolbe was a lack of eyes-up play by Proctor. Could have scored at the other end but the pace got to him.
Vaai is a dickhead. Not really a profound observation
maybe he should concentrate on pushing at scrums instead of clapping and laughing?Wiesse is the avatar of rip and tear.
Boks scrum going great guns with 30 gone.
B Barrett looking ponderous and slow. He doesn't like heavy traffic. Failed to exit right before half-time which was a basic bitch error.
New Bok winger is bloody useful.
AB defensive line noticeably crooked. Pushing hard in the first 2 channels but lagging a bit wider.
AB Lineout at 35:50 - wtf happened??
Everyone playing as frantically as a virgin couple on their wedding night. With about as satisfying a result.
Lot of injuries and HIA.
Impression: Boks are ascendant but not finishing their opportunities. ABs are attacking from depth - too deep IMHO - but lacking a bit of subtlety; not much in the way of deception.
Bed time. Second half tomorrow.
Great overall insights as ever Nick.
The bolded bit is not so much because I feel you're wrong - too much - but more because on replay you have to admire how Cheslin pressured him to pass, with the intention of then trying for the intercept.@Billy-Webb said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
The bolded bit is not so much because I feel you're wrong - too much - but more because on replay you have to admire how Cheslin pressured him to pass, with the intention of then trying for the intercept.
I don't know that I'd see it quite like that.
As the ball comes out of the ruck, Kolbe retreats to cover any kicks through, leaving Reinach to head into the line and take Jordan at second receiver. At this point you've got Proctor, Parker, and Carter against Kolbe who sprints back into the line and decides to go for it. He's never in a position to make a tackle IMHO and Proctor never fixes him in defence.
Fassi is the only defender left if that ball finds Parker and then Carter OR Proctor holds it and stands Kolbe up.
Proctor makes a decision which in retrospect you could easily say is good: offloading in contact is worse than passing and staying alive. He passes a step earlier or later, and Kolbe is still in no-man's land and Carter in the corner
Kolbe makes a good read, as it turns out. He gets into space to make a tackle but he has to pick one of three or none of three, and gets it right
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Second half thoughts:
McKenzie good in the air a couple of times, but gets beaten later not getting into the space a couple of times as well. Wind factor?
Noticeable - like the Kolbe intercept - that the Boks are leaving a lot of space for the last defender to cover BUT they're rushing into the eyeline of the attacker e.g. Savea's forward pass at the start of the 2nd half due to the 12 rushing hard.
It looks like a lack of patience; like watching my club side get two offloads away and making some metres, so they keep trying it but fail to understand they're running out of guys to cover rucks.
Bok 2nd try was error after error from the ABs - first all the back rowers are pinned in a retreating and penalisable scrum, then rangaboi puts a high tackle on Reinach for two penalties in a row. Meanwhile the AB backline have shot out of the line and are busy ruck watching when Kolisi takes the pop. Jordan and Sititi utterly fail to cover this breakout, leaving Jordie Barrett to do the work and leave the right side exposed. After Kolisi is tackled, the numbers aren't bad, just looking inward instead of at the danger on the edge: Kolbe.
Not sure why the AB restarts are so deep. Every time Wiese gets a runup and the Boks get a fairly easy possession.
In the 45th minute BB fields a kick and gives it to McKenzie on the 22 but outside - instead of using Jordie and Carter outside him he kicks it straight away. A minute later they get the ball deep inside their 22 and BB to McKenzie who has to try and find touch from the middle of the field. Not sure if there is any clear plan here.
Vaa'i puts in a stupid shoulder charge and is still doing the dickhead laugh and tough guy act after someone reacts. Hardly the "stoic, grim-faced and noble" AB of mythology. I guess there are some Chiefs fans who love it tho :man_shrugging:
Sititi really looks half a yard off the pace. Tamaiti Williams looks 5 yards off the pace.
At 50 minutes the handling errors and penalties are pretty even but the turnovers conceded favours the ABs 7-10. As Darryl Kerrigan said: "It's what you do with it".
The space is still there on the edges for the ABs, but jeez the skill execution is letting them down - Jordan's wobbly spiral that misses Proctor (who looked too slow TBH) and lands at Carter's feet being a prime example. Jordan should have gone at or around Libbok like the Wallabies did.
ABs a bit unlucky to get penalised at the scrum just on 54:00 - Bok THP elbow pointing straight down.
OMG 55:00 Bok forward pass missed (AR straight in line) then Savea turns it over only for BB to faff around. There is no clear direction in his mind - unless there is some magical bullshit involved, and a rampant forward pack, Barrett has no idea. And a chip kick right after it. Lol sack him.
Wiese eats black jerseys for dinner. Sititi, by comparison, tries a rugby league strip at nearly every tackle.
ABs blow a chance at competitiveness with obstruction at a maul in the 59th minute. After that we're through the looking glass, Alice... I think from this point I was actually watching the game, so I'll go bullet points from here.
- Boks young guns start expressing themselves.
- Backup AB hooker is partly to blame, but fucking around at lineout moreso.
- Three ABs (Tupaea, Carter, Rangaboi) fail to bring down Willemse. Yeesh. They paused instead of smacking a guy on the back foot.
- CHIP KICK! OVERTHROW! OVERKICK!
- At 65:00 missed tackles: ABs 31-29 Boks
- Stupid offload by Jordan after taking the high ball gives the Boks a scrum with 13 to go just outside the AB 22.
- Hooker's break of BB's shit kick made to look better by a fairly shit AB chase line. Sets up field position for Kwagga's try
- Snyman's try is all down to Holland shooting out. I said that on the day I believe.
- 75:35 Hey Will Jordan: two hands for beginners! Tho at the scrum immediately afterwards the Boks should have been pinged as their THP absolutely shit the bed.
- CROSSFIELD KICK! CHIP KICK ARDIE!
- Tamaiti Williams out of alignment for the Boks last try, and instead of advancing, he retreats.
And a bloodied but victorious Esterhuizen is the icing on the cake.
That's the nuts and bolts. New post coming for summary thoughts.
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BB ffs
Get a semi decent fly half and half the problems are solved.
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BB ffs
Get a semi decent fly half and half the problems are solved.
@autoeuropean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
BB ffs
Get a semi decent fly half and half the problems are solved.
If the coach can't see that? Sack the coach
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To me, the scoreline reflects the mindset of both teams.
Springboks know what their plan is, and have burned it into the frontal lobe of every player in the squad. As long as they have their set piece in order, big bodies in midfield, and pace on the edges, they'll keep doing that while it is winning games.
It doesn't always win, because it can be countered if If IF you can compete in the air, or pressure their lineout. But it is high percentage and effective when you've got fit bodies. By my reckoning they're down to their 3rd string front row and still performing, and managed several early injuries. There is a strength in simplicity.
All Blacks look like they're running on an assumed superiority of skill and fitness; a team that looks like their guiding light is a mix of motivational surfer quotes and trick shot pool.
That might be a bit of legacy haunting them TBH - well I remember BB pulling off utterly bullshit kicks that bounced into his arms after nearly brushing the sideline paint to score a try against the Wallabies.
When the magic is gone, you need to roll up your sleeves. Of course when the magic comes back, it becomes much easier.
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BB ffs
Get a semi decent fly half and half the problems are solved.
@autoeuropean said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
BB ffs
Get a semi decent fly half and half the problems are solved.
Yep, and get a semi decent scrum and lineout. Unless the set piece improves, we can have Carter at 10 and we still won't win against SA.
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Fixes:
BB has to go. I don't think he offers anything more than McKenzie at 10, and some of his decision making under pressure shows his flaws - particularly some of the passes that compounded pressure on his team mates.
Proctor looks like a whole-hearted player and he mostly does good things, but I wonder where his ceiling is. Perhaps the return of Tupaea to the 12 jersey to add a bit of starch, and moving Jordie out one might help, with them swapping roles depending on the situation.
Your scrumhalf crisis can't be ignored in all this. Christie is serviceable and even good at times, but a fit and firing Roigaard as well as Ratima would help I think.
Up front you really need to sort out what the balance of the pack, and find a better third-string hooker.
I don't mind Holland. Maybe if you team him up with S Barrett it is a bit more even in terms of hard workers, tho the latter did himself no favours on the weekend. I guess you need to find someone better before you go casting players aside.
Vaa'i looks like a blindside flanker to me. A not-very-bright one who would rather pick fights and do Aaron Smith impressions than knuckle down and play rugby. I don't mind persisting with Parker, who fits that bill. If you complement him with Papalii at 7 and Ardie at 8 and captain, it might bring a bit more balance to the back row.
Oh and the defence coach needs to be fired into the sun. Razor to be shown what an "exit play" looks like, on repeat.
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Overall I think the Boks looked good because they were, and partly because some poor decisions allowed them to look good.
On that: I don't think this talk of Rassie evolving their play is borne out in any visible change - the core of the game is still set piece, clatterball, and basic skill execution.
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I think the backlash at Eden Park vs the Wallabies in a couple of weeks is going to be reassuring to most here.
@NTA said in All Blacks vs Springboks II:
I think the backlash at Eden Park vs the Wallabies in a couple of weeks is going to be reassuring to most here.
It will give the media and the coaches an opportunity to paper over the cracks if we beat you, convincingly or not
