What is decline?
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@canefan said in What is decline?:
@gt12 said in What is decline?:
The rot started in 2017. It's the one question I'd ask Steve Hansen if I met him again - had he quit then, would we have had a better succession plan?
We were fat from success by then. If he left in 2017 as he originally intended, who would NZRU have turned to to succeed him? His assistants were Smith and Foster. I don't think they would have wanted to rock what appeared to be a winning boat, maybe we would have got Foster earlier than otherwise, or maybe Smith would have had another crack at being HC? I don't see them going outside the tent at that stage.
Maybe Razor (who I thought would usher in a new era, but has been exposed as a false prophet) will take us to rock bottom, and someone will come in next time to start from scratch as Henry did?
Gatland is free
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@Jet said in What is decline?:
@MiketheSnow said in What is decline?:
@Jet said in What is decline?:
We have lost 19 games since the 2019 RWC semi final exit.
McCaw lost 15 games in 148 tests.
Yikes
Bear in mind there was a pandemic in the middle of that too....
Razor has lost 6 already....
Thought it was 8
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@MiketheSnow said in What is decline?:
@Jet said in What is decline?:
@MiketheSnow said in What is decline?:
@Jet said in What is decline?:
We have lost 19 games since the 2019 RWC semi final exit.
McCaw lost 15 games in 148 tests.
Yikes
Bear in mind there was a pandemic in the middle of that too....
Razor has lost 6 already....
Thought it was 8
SA x 3 (2 away, 1 home). 1 from 4 against SA
Arg x 2 (1 away, 1 home). 2 from 4 against Argentina
Fra x 1 (1 away). 3 from 4 against France*- for the obvious under strength France team that toured
Hasn’t lost to anyone else yet. Oz x 2 to come, then Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales in Nov. I can see 2 from 4 out of that lot.
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@mohikamo said in What is decline?:
@nonpartizan said in What is decline?:
Kiwi diaspora. Surely there is a way to partner with a northern union or a handful of clubs where kiwi coaches and players go on loan to gain experience whilst still being affiliated to the NZR. kind of like an exchange student programme..... Ofc similar to what Jordie just did but even earlier in his career. That way these players and coaches can get exposed to a different rugby environment and be more equipped to play against different styles instead of just the super rugby bubble 24/7. Push players out of their Christchurch/Wellington etc comfort zones and have them learn about rugby and life in a different milieu.
A very big deal. In the amateur days virtually all those players and coaches were still in NZ.
But you cant blame them diasporing; 20% of NZ citizens dont live in NZ because they're trying to make a decent quid somewhere else.You are right about NZR.
What ever you think about them they are a NZ entity that is actually world leading.
The NZRU owns the contracts of all the pro players in NZ (about 700) and they should operate like a club.
Export the talent but retain the rights.
Send young players on loan overseas.
Not sure of the exact structure, they call it a sabbatical, but really I think its just a loan agreement.
More of that kind of thing.
Or even buy into a club in a top European competition.Exactly.
What I would think along the lines of is partnering with the SRU/Edinburgh.
The Scots have a tough time producing enough players to fill up the rosters of both their pro teams so you say, let's have an agreement where we send you cattle every year on loan as part of a player development program. NZR would retain rights to the player and if the player plays well they return to NZ to play for their parent SR club, if they are ok but nothing spectacular they could still stay in Scotland and carve out a living playing rugby who need the players. Before they become residency qualified you keep taking a look at them to see if they are worthy of a SR contract or making the NZ XV for example.
The type of players I would have in mind would be someone like Dylan Pledger or Eli Oudenryn. Have them head north after the NPC season is over on loan. Let them train and play in Edinburgh for a few months, maybe get on the bench v a visiting South African side or two, play some minutes in Dublin, play in Wales. If the arrangement works for both parties have them stay the duration of the season, if the SR club wants their player back sooner, ok.
As things currently stand if a player leaves the NZ system and heads overseas they are lost to NZR and so you lose a James Lowe or a Bundee Aki. Try to create a system where the players can head overseas but NZR still has some degree of control over the player instead of NZ being a feeder system for other countries.
It all might be impractical to do but I think you have to try and do something because I would argue that NZR is not currently benefitting to the fullest extent from the talent NZ produces.
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When the AB's were at their strongest (most profitable) they should have bought teams in a couple of competitions around the world....you want a sabatical? go play for "London Kiwis" where we also have up and coming coaches getting experience in different competitions, built in fan base of expats and kids on their OE's and touring teams run lighter knowing there are emergency cover in country already
*huge tongue in cheek but fun idea
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@Kiwiwomble said in What is decline?:
When the AB's were at their strongest (most profitable) they should have bought teams in a couple of competitions around the world....you want a sabatical? go play for "London Kiwis" where we also have up and coming coaches getting experience in different competitions, built in fan base of expats and kids on their OE's and touring teams run lighter knowing there are emergency cover in country already
*huge tongue in cheek but fun idea
Not completely off the wall. Just expensive. Why not one in the northern hemisphere. Another in MLR. Have the northern hemisphere team for established guys. Have the MLR side for U23s and players with Super potential..
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@Kiwiwomble said in What is decline?:
When the AB's were at their strongest (most profitable) they should have bought teams in a couple of competitions around the world....you want a sabatical? go play for "London Kiwis" where we also have up and coming coaches getting experience in different competitions, built in fan base of expats and kids on their OE's and touring teams run lighter knowing there are emergency cover in country already
*huge tongue in cheek but fun idea
Isn't one of the London clubs Saffa owned? Saracens?
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@Kiwiwomble I think there was 'talk' of this about a decade or more back and think they then looked at a 'reciprocal' type situation with a club over there, but nothing was ever formalised?
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@taniwharugby yeah, that does ring a bell
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@canefan said in What is decline?:
@Kiwiwomble said in What is decline?:
When the AB's were at their strongest (most profitable) they should have bought teams in a couple of competitions around the world....you want a sabatical? go play for "London Kiwis" where we also have up and coming coaches getting experience in different competitions, built in fan base of expats and kids on their OE's and touring teams run lighter knowing there are emergency cover in country already
*huge tongue in cheek but fun idea
Isn't one of the London clubs Saffa owned? Saracens?
Yes, Francois Pienaar is the figurehead/rugby guy of the investment group that owns them.
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@nonpartizan said in What is decline?:
@canefan said in What is decline?:
@Kiwiwomble said in What is decline?:
When the AB's were at their strongest (most profitable) they should have bought teams in a couple of competitions around the world....you want a sabatical? go play for "London Kiwis" where we also have up and coming coaches getting experience in different competitions, built in fan base of expats and kids on their OE's and touring teams run lighter knowing there are emergency cover in country already
*huge tongue in cheek but fun idea
Isn't one of the London clubs Saffa owned? Saracens?
Yes, Francois Pienaar is the figurehead/rugby guy of the investment group that owns them.
Do they use it as a vehicle to bring in lots of Saffas?
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@canefan Interestingly enough no, afaik.
I think there was a time when there was a pronounced influence of Saffers on the playing and coaching side, for example Brendan Venter as the coach but now few Saffers on the rugby side of things.
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i do like the idea, treat it as its own thing that has to operate independent as possible but if there were 4-5 ab's on sabbaticals or youth we didn't want to loose because there was currently someone ahead of them in the squad, plus a coach getting experience
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@nonpartizan said in What is decline?:
@mohikamo said in What is decline?:
@nonpartizan said in What is decline?:
Kiwi diaspora. Surely there is a way to partner with a northern union or a handful of clubs where kiwi coaches and players go on loan to gain experience whilst still being affiliated to the NZR. kind of like an exchange student programme..... Ofc similar to what Jordie just did but even earlier in his career. That way these players and coaches can get exposed to a different rugby environment and be more equipped to play against different styles instead of just the super rugby bubble 24/7. Push players out of their Christchurch/Wellington etc comfort zones and have them learn about rugby and life in a different milieu.
A very big deal. In the amateur days virtually all those players and coaches were still in NZ.
But you cant blame them diasporing; 20% of NZ citizens dont live in NZ because they're trying to make a decent quid somewhere else.You are right about NZR.
What ever you think about them they are a NZ entity that is actually world leading.
The NZRU owns the contracts of all the pro players in NZ (about 700) and they should operate like a club.
Export the talent but retain the rights.
Send young players on loan overseas.
Not sure of the exact structure, they call it a sabbatical, but really I think its just a loan agreement.
More of that kind of thing.
Or even buy into a club in a top European competition.Exactly.
What I would think along the lines of is partnering with the SRU/Edinburgh.
The Scots have a tough time producing enough players to fill up the rosters of both their pro teams so you say, let's have an agreement where we send you cattle every year on loan as part of a player development program. NZR would retain rights to the player and if the player plays well they return to NZ to play for their parent SR club, if they are ok but nothing spectacular they could still stay in Scotland and carve out a living playing rugby who need the players. Before they become residency qualified you keep taking a look at them to see if they are worthy of a SR contract or making the NZ XV for example.
The type of players I would have in mind would be someone like Dylan Pledger or Eli Oudenryn. Have them head north after the NPC season is over on loan. Let them train and play in Edinburgh for a few months, maybe get on the bench v a visiting South African side or two, play some minutes in Dublin, play in Wales. If the arrangement works for both parties have them stay the duration of the season, if the SR club wants their player back sooner, ok.
As things currently stand if a player leaves the NZ system and heads overseas they are lost to NZR and so you lose a James Lowe or a Bundee Aki. Try to create a system where the players can head overseas but NZR still has some degree of control over the player instead of NZ being a feeder system for other countries.
It all might be impractical to do but I think you have to try and do something because I would argue that NZR is not currently benefitting to the fullest extent from the talent NZ produces.
You don’t want much do you
Can’t have your cake and eat it
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@MiketheSnow said in What is decline?:
@nonpartizan said in What is decline?:
@mohikamo said in What is decline?:
@nonpartizan said in What is decline?:
Kiwi diaspora. Surely there is a way to partner with a northern union or a handful of clubs where kiwi coaches and players go on loan to gain experience whilst still being affiliated to the NZR. kind of like an exchange student programme..... Ofc similar to what Jordie just did but even earlier in his career. That way these players and coaches can get exposed to a different rugby environment and be more equipped to play against different styles instead of just the super rugby bubble 24/7. Push players out of their Christchurch/Wellington etc comfort zones and have them learn about rugby and life in a different milieu.
A very big deal. In the amateur days virtually all those players and coaches were still in NZ.
But you cant blame them diasporing; 20% of NZ citizens dont live in NZ because they're trying to make a decent quid somewhere else.You are right about NZR.
What ever you think about them they are a NZ entity that is actually world leading.
The NZRU owns the contracts of all the pro players in NZ (about 700) and they should operate like a club.
Export the talent but retain the rights.
Send young players on loan overseas.
Not sure of the exact structure, they call it a sabbatical, but really I think its just a loan agreement.
More of that kind of thing.
Or even buy into a club in a top European competition.Exactly.
What I would think along the lines of is partnering with the SRU/Edinburgh.
The Scots have a tough time producing enough players to fill up the rosters of both their pro teams so you say, let's have an agreement where we send you cattle every year on loan as part of a player development program. NZR would retain rights to the player and if the player plays well they return to NZ to play for their parent SR club, if they are ok but nothing spectacular they could still stay in Scotland and carve out a living playing rugby who need the players. Before they become residency qualified you keep taking a look at them to see if they are worthy of a SR contract or making the NZ XV for example.
The type of players I would have in mind would be someone like Dylan Pledger or Eli Oudenryn. Have them head north after the NPC season is over on loan. Let them train and play in Edinburgh for a few months, maybe get on the bench v a visiting South African side or two, play some minutes in Dublin, play in Wales. If the arrangement works for both parties have them stay the duration of the season, if the SR club wants their player back sooner, ok.
As things currently stand if a player leaves the NZ system and heads overseas they are lost to NZR and so you lose a James Lowe or a Bundee Aki. Try to create a system where the players can head overseas but NZR still has some degree of control over the player instead of NZ being a feeder system for other countries.
It all might be impractical to do but I think you have to try and do something because I would argue that NZR is not currently benefitting to the fullest extent from the talent NZ produces.
You don’t want much do you
Can’t have your cake and eat it
I see what you are saying but first and foremost NZ should benefit from the players it produces.
Imagine an alternative history where Frank Bunce is locked into playing for Samoa after the 1991 world cup and the All Blacks lose one of its best and most consistent performers from 1992-1997 who played a critical role in a winning lions tour and the 96 and 97 Tri nations.
The reason he was overlooked by NZ selectors prior to 91 was because in a lot of the trial and rep games in the late 80s and early 90s he was either injured and not at 100% or he just didn't perform on the day due to nerves. That plus the 13 jersey at that time was a closed shop for both Auckland and the abs.
But if you create a loan system overseas for NZ players as an additional player pathway where players such as a Frank Bunce who might otherwise be lost to NZ can learn their trade and if they impress they come back to NZ as better players.
As things currently stand there is a brain drain of talent and other countries are beneficiaries of players (and coaches) fully developed in NZ rugby with no reciprocity.
The talent pool in NZ needs to be much more astutely managed by NZR - as an example in the upcoming Bledisloe cup the best kiwi coach will be coaching the Wallabies. How does that make sense from the pov of New Zealand rugby?
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@nonpartizan said in What is decline?:
@MiketheSnow said in What is decline?:
@nonpartizan said in What is decline?:
@mohikamo said in What is decline?:
@nonpartizan said in What is decline?:
Kiwi diaspora. Surely there is a way to partner with a northern union or a handful of clubs where kiwi coaches and players go on loan to gain experience whilst still being affiliated to the NZR. kind of like an exchange student programme..... Ofc similar to what Jordie just did but even earlier in his career. That way these players and coaches can get exposed to a different rugby environment and be more equipped to play against different styles instead of just the super rugby bubble 24/7. Push players out of their Christchurch/Wellington etc comfort zones and have them learn about rugby and life in a different milieu.
A very big deal. In the amateur days virtually all those players and coaches were still in NZ.
But you cant blame them diasporing; 20% of NZ citizens dont live in NZ because they're trying to make a decent quid somewhere else.You are right about NZR.
What ever you think about them they are a NZ entity that is actually world leading.
The NZRU owns the contracts of all the pro players in NZ (about 700) and they should operate like a club.
Export the talent but retain the rights.
Send young players on loan overseas.
Not sure of the exact structure, they call it a sabbatical, but really I think its just a loan agreement.
More of that kind of thing.
Or even buy into a club in a top European competition.Exactly.
What I would think along the lines of is partnering with the SRU/Edinburgh.
The Scots have a tough time producing enough players to fill up the rosters of both their pro teams so you say, let's have an agreement where we send you cattle every year on loan as part of a player development program. NZR would retain rights to the player and if the player plays well they return to NZ to play for their parent SR club, if they are ok but nothing spectacular they could still stay in Scotland and carve out a living playing rugby who need the players. Before they become residency qualified you keep taking a look at them to see if they are worthy of a SR contract or making the NZ XV for example.
The type of players I would have in mind would be someone like Dylan Pledger or Eli Oudenryn. Have them head north after the NPC season is over on loan. Let them train and play in Edinburgh for a few months, maybe get on the bench v a visiting South African side or two, play some minutes in Dublin, play in Wales. If the arrangement works for both parties have them stay the duration of the season, if the SR club wants their player back sooner, ok.
As things currently stand if a player leaves the NZ system and heads overseas they are lost to NZR and so you lose a James Lowe or a Bundee Aki. Try to create a system where the players can head overseas but NZR still has some degree of control over the player instead of NZ being a feeder system for other countries.
It all might be impractical to do but I think you have to try and do something because I would argue that NZR is not currently benefitting to the fullest extent from the talent NZ produces.
You don’t want much do you
Can’t have your cake and eat it
I see what you are saying but first and foremost NZ should benefit from the players it produces.
Imagine an alternative history where Frank Bunce is locked into playing for Samoa after the 1991 world cup and the All Blacks lose one of its best and most consistent performers from 1992-1997 who played a critical role in a winning lions tour and the 96 and 97 Tri nations.
The reason he was overlooked by NZ selectors prior to 91 was because in a lot of the trial and rep games in the late 80s and early 90s he was either injured and not at 100% or he just didn't perform on the day due to nerves. That plus the 13 jersey at that time was a closed shop for both Auckland and the abs.
But if you create a loan system overseas for NZ players as an additional player pathway where players such as a Frank Bunce who might otherwise be lost to NZ can learn their trade and if they impress they come back to NZ as better players.
As things currently stand there is a brain drain of talent and other countries are beneficiaries of players (and coaches) fully developed in NZ rugby with no reciprocity.
The talent pool in NZ needs to be much more astutely managed by NZR - as an example in the upcoming Bledisloe cup the best kiwi coach will be coaching the Wallabies. How does that make sense from the pov of New Zealand rugby?
Nothing you have written has made me think differently
Perhaps talent recognition, skills development and player pathways in NZ should be better
It’s a problem every country experiences
Some more than others
