All Blacks 2025

[sparky]

@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:

In world rugby right now this is the pecking order -

1. Boks

2. Chasing pack of -
   ABs
   Wallabies
   England
   France
   Ireland
   Argentina

Of the chasing pack all can win against each other on their day but even then they can get one over the Boks as both the ABs and Wallabies did this year & Argentina & Ireland did last.

I would say

1. The Boks
   Daylight
   A bit more daylight
2. The full-strength France team
3. Then a chasing pack of the ABs, the Wobs, England, Ireland and Argentina.

[BerniesCorner]

I disagree. Versus Bok 2 we were still in it with 20 minutes to play. Kolbe's intercept was a game changer.
We needed optimum side as stated above and active captain.

[nonpartizan]

@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:

@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:

In world rugby right now this is the pecking order -

1. Boks

2. Chasing pack of -
   ABs
   Wallabies
   England
   France
   Ireland
   Argentina

Of the chasing pack all can win against each other on their day but even then they can get one over the Boks as both the ABs and Wallabies did this year & Argentina & Ireland did last.

I would say

1. The Boks
   Daylight
   A bit more daylight
2. The full-strength France team
3. Then a chasing pack of the ABs, the Wobs, England, Ireland and Argentina.

And if you look at that list consider that both South Africa and France have the biggest populations so in terms of manpower more resources. Its one of the reasons why the Springboks and France have so much depth.

[Victor Meldrew]

@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:

I think the hiding that the Springboks dished out today puts Wellington in perspective a little bit

Since about 2017 (apart from RWC2023) we've turned into headless chickens, produced periods of brain-farts and absolutely shit performances - but I've never seen an AB team simply give up like they did in Wellington.

I don't know if Robertson's a crap, over-fluffed Test coach, if his assistants are crap or there's trouble in camp but I do know he's not likely to turn this around based on what we've seen so far.

Not saying he should be sacked (and def. not treated like shit as Foster was) but there needs to be some serious, hard questions asked to find out what is going right and what isn't - and what needs to be done to improve things.

[nonpartizan]

@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:

I disagree. Versus Bok 2 we were still in it with 20 minutes to play. Kolbe's intercept was a game changer.
We needed optimum side as stated above and active captain.

With a functioning set piece (particularly lineout) that game could and would have been more competitive. I personally think they would still have won but it would have been by a much more respectable score.

[sparky]

@nonpartizan New Zealand used to have extra rugby smarts to make up for lower player numbers than England, South Africa and France. Not any more.

I expect those three nations with their huge resources to pull away in the next few years.

[BerniesCorner]

@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:

@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:

I disagree. Versus Bok 2 we were still in it with 20 minutes to play. Kolbe's intercept was a game changer.
We needed optimum side as stated above and active captain.

With a functioning set piece (particularly lineout) that game could and would have been more competitive. I personally think they would still have won but it would have been by a much more respectable score.

I agree. Holland is such a lineout weapon (and a decent work rate) he has to start.

[BerniesCorner]

Having said that it's hard to think of a better rugby side than the current SA side.

[nonpartizan]

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:

@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:

I think the hiding that the Springboks dished out today puts Wellington in perspective a little bit

Since about 2017 (apart from RWC2023) we've turned into headless chickens, produced periods of brain-farts and absolutely shit performances - but I've never seen an AB team simply give up like they did in Wellington.

I don't know if Robertson's a crap, over-fluffed Test coach, if his assistants are crap or there's trouble in camp but I do know he's not likely to turn this around based on what we've seen so far.

Not saying he should be sacked (and def. not treated like shit as Foster was) but there needs to be some serious, hard questions asked to find out what is going right and what isn't - and what needs to be done to improve things.

Wellington was imo a France semi final.1999 type meltdown where players were in such shock that they could not muster a collective response.

But the one common denominator in those two matches was leadership or lack thereof. Taine Randell and Scott Barrett/Ardie did not do nearly enough to stem the bleeding or rally the troops. That match in Wellington ended up being 15 individuals playing against a well oiled Bok machine and I have to hold the team leaders responsible for that facet of the failure.

[nonpartizan]

@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:

@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:

@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:

I disagree. Versus Bok 2 we were still in it with 20 minutes to play. Kolbe's intercept was a game changer.
We needed optimum side as stated above and active captain.

With a functioning set piece (particularly lineout) that game could and would have been more competitive. I personally think they would still have won but it would have been by a much more respectable score.

I agree. Holland is such a lineout weapon (and a decent work rate) he has to start.

Yeah, he does so much better as a starter than off the bench. I'm curious to know why he was moved to the bench for the Boks, not that I am criticizing the decision just would like to know why. Admittedly he looked a little weary in Argie II so maybe they wanted to get him some rest.

[brodean]

@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:

@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:

@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:

I disagree. Versus Bok 2 we were still in it with 20 minutes to play. Kolbe's intercept was a game changer.
We needed optimum side as stated above and active captain.

With a functioning set piece (particularly lineout) that game could and would have been more competitive. I personally think they would still have won but it would have been by a much more respectable score.

I agree. Holland is such a lineout weapon (and a decent work rate) he has to start.

The lineout was so much better with Taylor and Holland there and with Scooter missing. Vaai and Tuipulotu are both better lineout callers than Scooter too.

Holland should be the first lock named and the main 80 minute player. Vaa'i can lose focus if he plays much longer than 60. Paddy, Scooter and Darry can fill in the gaps when they're not injured. I doubt any of those 3 have the bodies now for regular 80 minute test rugby

[nonpartizan]

@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:

@nonpartizan New Zealand used to have extra rugby smarts to make up for lower player numbers than England, South Africa and France. Not any more.

I expect those three nations with their huge resources to pull away in the next few years.

I think small countries can compete with bigger countries in sport - such as how Jamaica is consistently the biggest rival to the US in sprinting despite having a population of only 3 million.

HOWEVER, what you can't afford is waste and inefficiency. Your decision making at all levels of the game have to be very accurate. You need the smartest people in charge making the decisions so that you are always able to use your resources wisely. One bad appointment or poor decision can cripple you. I would say in that sense the AB hiring process for a coach has to be unbelievably thorough next time around. The candidates need to be thoroughly vetted and whatever their weaknesses are there has to be some steps taken to offset them.

[MN5]

@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:

@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:

@nonpartizan New Zealand used to have extra rugby smarts to make up for lower player numbers than England, South Africa and France. Not any more.

I expect those three nations with their huge resources to pull away in the next few years.

I think small countries can compete with bigger countries in sport - such as how Jamaica is consistently the biggest rival to the US in sprinting despite having a population of only 3 million.

HOWEVER, what you can't afford is waste and inefficiency. Your decision making at all levels of the game have to be very accurate. You need the smartest people in charge making the decisions so that you are always able to use your resources wisely. One bad appointment or poor decision can cripple you. I would say in that sense the AB hiring process for a coach has to be unbelievably thorough next time around. The vetting needs to be through the roof.

I think the Black Caps well and truly dismissed that "small country vs big country" nonsense with their 3-0 victory over India ( population over a billion ) IN INDIA......and of those billion people a fair few of them are into Cricket.

Trotting out the "SA and France have bigger populations" line is lazy and just not facing up to the fact they are quite simply better at the moment. It's not like their populations have grown by tens of millions in the last few years.

[nonpartizan]

@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:

@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:

@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:

@nonpartizan New Zealand used to have extra rugby smarts to make up for lower player numbers than England, South Africa and France. Not any more.

I expect those three nations with their huge resources to pull away in the next few years.

I think small countries can compete with bigger countries in sport - such as how Jamaica is consistently the biggest rival to the US in sprinting despite having a population of only 3 million.

HOWEVER, what you can't afford is waste and inefficiency. Your decision making at all levels of the game have to be very accurate. You need the smartest people in charge making the decisions so that you are always able to use your resources wisely. One bad appointment or poor decision can cripple you. I would say in that sense the AB hiring process for a coach has to be unbelievably thorough next time around. The vetting needs to be through the roof.

I think the Black Caps well and truly dismissed that "small country vs big country" nonsense with their 3-0 victory over India ( population over a billion ) IN INDIA......and of those billion people a fair few of them are into Cricket.

Trotting out the "SA and France have bigger populations" is just not facing up to the fact they are quite simply better at the moment. It's not like their populations have grown by tens of millions in the last few years.

True. If it all came down to biggest populations India (for example) would be way better at the Olympics across all disciplines. Culture and intellect play a big part of sporting success.

[MN5]

@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:

@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:

@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:

@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:

@nonpartizan New Zealand used to have extra rugby smarts to make up for lower player numbers than England, South Africa and France. Not any more.

I expect those three nations with their huge resources to pull away in the next few years.

I think small countries can compete with bigger countries in sport - such as how Jamaica is consistently the biggest rival to the US in sprinting despite having a population of only 3 million.

HOWEVER, what you can't afford is waste and inefficiency. Your decision making at all levels of the game have to be very accurate. You need the smartest people in charge making the decisions so that you are always able to use your resources wisely. One bad appointment or poor decision can cripple you. I would say in that sense the AB hiring process for a coach has to be unbelievably thorough next time around. The vetting needs to be through the roof.

I think the Black Caps well and truly dismissed that "small country vs big country" nonsense with their 3-0 victory over India ( population over a billion ) IN INDIA......and of those billion people a fair few of them are into Cricket.

Trotting out the "SA and France have bigger populations" is just not facing up to the fact they are quite simply better at the moment. It's not like their populations have grown by tens of millions in the last few years.

True. If it all came down to biggest populations India (for example) would be way better at the Olympics across all disciplines. Culture and intellect play a big part of sporting success.

......yeah I had a good chat with an Indian dude I know about this very thing and he bemoaned the fact that his nation was so unathletic overall. They're always last in the medal to population table at the Olympics ! and even in Cricket they're not as dominant as they would hope to be......

Regardless of population you can only have 15 guys on the field at once. New Zealand just isn't producing generational talent ( aside from maybe Jordan or Roigard ) like they have in the past.

The coaching isn't helping either.

[brodean]

@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:

@MN5 said in All Blacks 2025:

@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:

@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:

@nonpartizan New Zealand used to have extra rugby smarts to make up for lower player numbers than England, South Africa and France. Not any more.

I expect those three nations with their huge resources to pull away in the next few years.

I think small countries can compete with bigger countries in sport - such as how Jamaica is consistently the biggest rival to the US in sprinting despite having a population of only 3 million.

HOWEVER, what you can't afford is waste and inefficiency. Your decision making at all levels of the game have to be very accurate. You need the smartest people in charge making the decisions so that you are always able to use your resources wisely. One bad appointment or poor decision can cripple you. I would say in that sense the AB hiring process for a coach has to be unbelievably thorough next time around. The vetting needs to be through the roof.

I think the Black Caps well and truly dismissed that "small country vs big country" nonsense with their 3-0 victory over India ( population over a billion ) IN INDIA......and of those billion people a fair few of them are into Cricket.

Trotting out the "SA and France have bigger populations" is just not facing up to the fact they are quite simply better at the moment. It's not like their populations have grown by tens of millions in the last few years.

True. If it all came down to biggest populations India (for example) would be way better at the Olympics across all disciplines. Culture and intellect play a big part of sporting success.

I don't think intellect has a lot to do with it. David Beckham ain't no genius but boy could he bend that ball.

[tubbyj]

@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:

@sparky said in All Blacks 2025:

@nonpartizan New Zealand used to have extra rugby smarts to make up for lower player numbers than England, South Africa and France. Not any more.

I expect those three nations with their huge resources to pull away in the next few years.

I think small countries can compete with bigger countries in sport - such as how Jamaica is consistently the biggest rival to the US in sprinting despite having a population of only 3 million.

HOWEVER, what you can't afford is waste and inefficiency. Your decision making at all levels of the game have to be very accurate. You need the smartest people in charge making the decisions so that you are always able to use your resources wisely. One bad appointment or poor decision can cripple you. I would say in that sense the AB hiring process for a coach has to be unbelievably thorough next time around. The candidates need to be thoroughly vetted and whatever their weaknesses are there has to be some steps taken to offset them.

Agree waste is a big problem and I can't understand why Jason Ryan gets such a big pass for it. He is the one coach in the setup who has made it obvious he is still stuck in the past where the All Blacks could afford to exclude players with tremendous talent on attitudinal grounds and select players who are not up to it because they have the right attitude.

He is the dumb motherfucker who has excluded 3 of the loose forwards with the most potential talent of their generation in Akira Ioane, Hoskin Sotutu and Dalton Papali'i. Not saying every one of these players would have been a success but a good coach should back himself to get the best out of at least 2 of them. All Black rugby can simply not afford to waste this kind of talent anymore.

He is also the dumb motherfucker who has selected guys not good enough for test rugby like Brodie McCallister, George Bell, Luke Jacobson, Du'Plessis Kirifi while putting to much faith in players like players like Wallace Sititi to be world beaters on the basis of a few Ardie Savea like highlights. Savea is also shit as a 7 and a starter in general and should be on the bench which I put partly on Jason Ryan as well.

[nzzp]

@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:

think small countries can compete with bigger countries in sport - such as how Jamaica is consistently the biggest rival to the US in sprinting despite having a population of only 3 million.

Jamaica: probably drugs

[brodean]

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:

@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:

think small countries can compete with bigger countries in sport - such as how Jamaica is consistently the biggest rival to the US in sprinting despite having a population of only 3 million.

Jamaica: probably drugs

All those top athletes are on the juice. Jamaica has really good structures and coaching too for athletics. It's their number one sport.

[stodders]

@nzzp said in All Blacks 2025:

@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:

think small countries can compete with bigger countries in sport - such as how Jamaica is consistently the biggest rival to the US in sprinting despite having a population of only 3 million.

Jamaica: probably drugs

NZ should invest in better drugs then