All Blacks 2025
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
Fair point, Based my comment on Robertson's U20 side coming 5th in the 2016 Championship. IIRC that's the worst-ever performance by a NZ team.
I agree Robertson's non-Test coaching record needed to be taken seriously, but it's abundantly clear he was NZR's man no matter what - his face fitted and important stuff like Test experience clearly didn't matter.
That's not Robertson's problem though and as I said, NZR need to support hom.
Well, it was in terms of overall finishing (it has since been passed by the 2019 and 2023 NZ U20 teams, who both finished 7th). But the U20 World Championship is a very quick tournament, with a lot of contingent factors deciding your success in the group phase. In my own opinion, the 2016 U20 side was better than their 2012, 2014 and 2018 counterparts, all of whom made the semi-finals due to a combination of luck and opposition.
And yes, with hindsight there was, once again, too little attention given to international experience. I’m guessing it will return as a deciding factor in the next coaching selection post-2027, which is good news for guys like Jamie Joseph and Vern Cotter (and perhaps even Schmidt and Rennie, should they be interested).
@Mauss said in All Blacks 2025:
And yes, with hindsight there was, once again, too little attention given to international experience. I’m guessing it will return as a deciding factor in the next coaching selection post-2027, which is good news for guys like Jamie Joseph and Vern Cotter (and perhaps even Schmidt and Rennie, should they be interested).
Well, for a little bit of Devil's advocacy....
For all of the "Woe is us" and "All would be well if only we'd got Joe", the scoreline reads Razor 4 - Schmidt 0. Which is better than Sir Graham managed vs Robbie in his first four tests. And while it can be argued that it's "only Australia", it's an Australia that took a test off the Lions and beat SA in SA.
Record vs Rassie isn't great 1-3, but Rassie's coaching a generational SA team and has had umpteen years to get them where they are - and didn't have the same post-2023 exodus that we did.
3-0 vs Borthwick.
3-1 vs Galthie (you can only beat what's in front of you - but, could've been 4-0).
2-2 vs Contepomi, which is the most annoying.
And we've won the rest vs Fiji, Japan, Ireland and Italy.
Looking at a couple of other coaching options - well you couldn't get more international experience than Gatland, but he came back to Super rugby and totally shat the bed. How could this happen?
This time last year, there were strong calls for Cotter to join the squad - but then he took the reigning Champion Blues to a 7-9 record this year. You've got to ask why his significant international experience didn't help him arrest this debacle?
The ultra-internationally experienced Jamie Joseph led his Highlanders to the bottom of the table.
How did these things happen with all this international experience?
And, the maligned Hansen actually has quite a bit of international experience. As has Ryan - he nearly won a RWC.
And now Razor has too. He's coached 23 tests - and only lost 6 compared to all of the guys above.
The genius Rassie is 36/49 = 73.5%
Razor is 17/23 = 73.9%It's not a fucking disaster!
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Mark Watson calling for Razor to be sacked and also all of his remaining assistants on radio today.
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Mark Watson calling for Razor to be sacked and also all of his remaining assistants on radio today.
@MacDazzler I was calling for Mark Watson to be sacked 20 years ago on Radio Sport!
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
Sounds like Hansen is the cancer that needs excising
Or maybe he's the one who has the clearest vision of what the AB culture should be?
“A very intense fella, very passionate, has a lot of care but is hard on people and wants to get the very best out of people – he’s demanding
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
Sounds like Hansen is the cancer that needs excising
Or maybe he's the one who has the clearest vision of what the AB culture should be?
“A very intense fella, very passionate, has a lot of care but is hard on people and wants to get the very best out of people – he’s demanding
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
Sounds like Hansen is the cancer that needs excising
Or maybe he's the one who has the clearest vision of what the AB culture should be?
“A very intense fella, very passionate, has a lot of care but is hard on people and wants to get the very best out of people – he’s demanding
Maybe. But something is amiss
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@MacDazzler I was calling for Mark Watson to be sacked 20 years ago on Radio Sport!
@Chris-B I've never heard of him until recently and that bloke is never happy, even when we win.
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@Chris-B I've never heard of him until recently and that bloke is never happy, even when we win.
@MacDazzler said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B I've never heard of him until recently and that bloke is never happy, even when we win.
I hadn't heard of him for years - where's he working now?
In the hey-day of Radio Sport - him, Deaker, Golightly and Lose competed to be the biggest shock-jock.
It was quite entertaining, but if any of them knew much about rugby, they were suppressing it for radio clicks!
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
Sounds like Hansen is the cancer that needs excising
Or maybe he's the one who has the clearest vision of what the AB culture should be?
“A very intense fella, very passionate, has a lot of care but is hard on people and wants to get the very best out of people – he’s demanding
Maybe. But something is amiss
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
Sounds like Hansen is the cancer that needs excising
Or maybe he's the one who has the clearest vision of what the AB culture should be?
“A very intense fella, very passionate, has a lot of care but is hard on people and wants to get the very best out of people – he’s demanding
Maybe. But something is amiss
Something's been clearly amiss in managing the coaching set-up since 2010-20
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
Sounds like Hansen is the cancer that needs excising
Or maybe he's the one who has the clearest vision of what the AB culture should be?
“A very intense fella, very passionate, has a lot of care but is hard on people and wants to get the very best out of people – he’s demanding
Maybe. But something is amiss
Something's been clearly amiss in managing the coaching set-up since 2010-20
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
Sounds like Hansen is the cancer that needs excising
Or maybe he's the one who has the clearest vision of what the AB culture should be?
“A very intense fella, very passionate, has a lot of care but is hard on people and wants to get the very best out of people – he’s demanding
Maybe. But something is amiss
Something's been clearly amiss in managing the coaching set-up since 2010-20
Starting from the top down
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Mark Watson calling for Razor to be sacked and also all of his remaining assistants on radio today.
@MacDazzler
Is he still on radio? -
@MacDazzler I was calling for Mark Watson to be sacked 20 years ago on Radio Sport!
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@MacDazzler I was calling for Mark Watson to be sacked 20 years ago on Radio Sport!
Yeah me too he is a fuckwit he always has been.
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@MacDazzler said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris-B I've never heard of him until recently and that bloke is never happy, even when we win.
I hadn't heard of him for years - where's he working now?
In the hey-day of Radio Sport - him, Deaker, Golightly and Lose competed to be the biggest shock-jock.
It was quite entertaining, but if any of them knew much about rugby, they were suppressing it for radio clicks!
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@Chris-B I remember circa 1990 hearing the American expat Jim Didvick (sp?) occasionally. My first exposure to a "shock jock".
@Tim John Dybvig!
Haha - I've even got his book somewhere!
Started out as a basketball commentator - probably founded on a North American accent.
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@MacDazzler
Is he still on radio?@barky1 @Chris-B On Sport Nation Sunday afternoons with one of Justin Marshall, Shane Howarth or Ant Strachan. Everytime I go on Facebook on a Sunday arvo there's a post about him whinging about something eg every time the All Blacks lose is the biggest disgrace ever.
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At least someone's prepared to call the coaches out I guess......
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@Mauss said in All Blacks 2025:
And yes, with hindsight there was, once again, too little attention given to international experience. I’m guessing it will return as a deciding factor in the next coaching selection post-2027, which is good news for guys like Jamie Joseph and Vern Cotter (and perhaps even Schmidt and Rennie, should they be interested).
Well, for a little bit of Devil's advocacy....
For all of the "Woe is us" and "All would be well if only we'd got Joe", the scoreline reads Razor 4 - Schmidt 0. Which is better than Sir Graham managed vs Robbie in his first four tests. And while it can be argued that it's "only Australia", it's an Australia that took a test off the Lions and beat SA in SA.
Record vs Rassie isn't great 1-3, but Rassie's coaching a generational SA team and has had umpteen years to get them where they are - and didn't have the same post-2023 exodus that we did.
3-0 vs Borthwick.
3-1 vs Galthie (you can only beat what's in front of you - but, could've been 4-0).
2-2 vs Contepomi, which is the most annoying.
And we've won the rest vs Fiji, Japan, Ireland and Italy.
Looking at a couple of other coaching options - well you couldn't get more international experience than Gatland, but he came back to Super rugby and totally shat the bed. How could this happen?
This time last year, there were strong calls for Cotter to join the squad - but then he took the reigning Champion Blues to a 7-9 record this year. You've got to ask why his significant international experience didn't help him arrest this debacle?
The ultra-internationally experienced Jamie Joseph led his Highlanders to the bottom of the table.
How did these things happen with all this international experience?
And, the maligned Hansen actually has quite a bit of international experience. As has Ryan - he nearly won a RWC.
And now Razor has too. He's coached 23 tests - and only lost 6 compared to all of the guys above.
The genius Rassie is 36/49 = 73.5%
Razor is 17/23 = 73.9%It's not a fucking disaster!
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
Well, for a little bit of Devil's advocacy....
For all of the "Woe is us" and "All would be well if only we'd got Joe", the scoreline reads Razor 4 - Schmidt 0. Which is better than Sir Graham managed vs Robbie in his first four tests. And while it can be argued that it's "only Australia", it's an Australia that took a test off the Lions and beat SA in SA.
Record vs Rassie isn't great 1-3, but Rassie's coaching a generational SA team and has had umpteen years to get them where they are - and didn't have the same post-2023 exodus that we did.
3-0 vs Borthwick.
3-1 vs Galthie (you can only beat what's in front of you - but, could've been 4-0).
2-2 vs Contepomi, which is the most annoying.
And we've won the rest vs Fiji, Japan, Ireland and Italy.
Looking at a couple of other coaching options - well you couldn't get more international experience than Gatland, but he came back to Super rugby and totally shat the bed. How could this happen?
This time last year, there were strong calls for Cotter to join the squad - but then he took the reigning Champion Blues to a 7-9 record this year. You've got to ask why his significant international experience didn't help him arrest this debacle?
The ultra-internationally experienced Jamie Joseph led his Highlanders to the bottom of the table.
How did these things happen with all this international experience?
And, the maligned Hansen actually has quite a bit of international experience. As has Ryan - he nearly won a RWC.
And now Razor has too. He's coached 23 tests - and only lost 6 compared to all of the guys above.
The genius Rassie is 36/49 = 73.5%
Razor is 17/23 = 73.9%It's not a fucking disaster!
The numbers, all things considering, are okay, I’d agree with that. But Test rugby isn’t just about numbers and averages. I’m firmly of the belief that a team is built on performances. For Erasmus, it was the 2018 Wellington Test. For Galthié, it was first beating Ireland in Dublin in 2021 before winning the Grand Slam in 2022. For someone like Andy Farrell, it was winning the Test series in NZ in 2022. None of these coaches have incredible win rates but they have a team that’s difficult to beat, due to these wins and the self-belief that comes with it.
Robertson has had three real opportunities to achieve these kind of results and hasn’t been able to get any of them. First, there were the two Tests in South Africa in 2024, a chance to avenge the lost World Cup final and build from there (2 losses). Then, there was the 2024 Autumn Internationals, a chance to repeat what their predecessors had done 100 years earlier (Robertson even had their team photo taken like the 1924-25 Invincibles) and go unbeaten (loss to France in Paris). Then, this year he had a golden chance to reclaim the Rugby Championship, with two Tests against the Boks in New Zealand (2nd place finish).
Again, it’s understandable that he hasn’t succeeded at the first hurdle. Those other coaches have also failed multiple times before solidifying their team. But for the ABs to become a genuinely good side under Robertson they have to achieve one of those goals. I’m sure that Robertson himself is aware of how important these moments are: his own tenure at the Crusaders was built on overcoming tough odds early, like winning nearly almost all of his games during the 2017 SR season with a young and injury-depleted team, often in spectacular fashion (“Mitch Hunt with the drop goal”). Such performances then gave them the confidence to go to Ellis Park and beat the Lions in their own backyard.
The good news is that there are two clear, team-defining opportunities in the coming 12 months. First, there’s the upcoming Grand Slam tour (another chance to follow in the footsteps of the Invincibles). And then, there’s the tour to South Africa in 2026. Win the series there and there will be little doubt in anyone’s mind that this AB team is a good side. But until he’s achieved one of these team-defining wins, I don’t think it’s too harsh or dramatic to be critical of Robertson. His job is to build a team that’s tough, smart and hard to beat. And you get there by winning against the odds. Numbers be damned.
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@Mauss said in All Blacks 2025:
And yes, with hindsight there was, once again, too little attention given to international experience. I’m guessing it will return as a deciding factor in the next coaching selection post-2027, which is good news for guys like Jamie Joseph and Vern Cotter (and perhaps even Schmidt and Rennie, should they be interested).
Well, for a little bit of Devil's advocacy....
For all of the "Woe is us" and "All would be well if only we'd got Joe", the scoreline reads Razor 4 - Schmidt 0. Which is better than Sir Graham managed vs Robbie in his first four tests. And while it can be argued that it's "only Australia", it's an Australia that took a test off the Lions and beat SA in SA.
Record vs Rassie isn't great 1-3, but Rassie's coaching a generational SA team and has had umpteen years to get them where they are - and didn't have the same post-2023 exodus that we did.
3-0 vs Borthwick.
3-1 vs Galthie (you can only beat what's in front of you - but, could've been 4-0).
2-2 vs Contepomi, which is the most annoying.
And we've won the rest vs Fiji, Japan, Ireland and Italy.
Looking at a couple of other coaching options - well you couldn't get more international experience than Gatland, but he came back to Super rugby and totally shat the bed. How could this happen?
This time last year, there were strong calls for Cotter to join the squad - but then he took the reigning Champion Blues to a 7-9 record this year. You've got to ask why his significant international experience didn't help him arrest this debacle?
The ultra-internationally experienced Jamie Joseph led his Highlanders to the bottom of the table.
How did these things happen with all this international experience?
And, the maligned Hansen actually has quite a bit of international experience. As has Ryan - he nearly won a RWC.
And now Razor has too. He's coached 23 tests - and only lost 6 compared to all of the guys above.
The genius Rassie is 36/49 = 73.5%
Razor is 17/23 = 73.9%It's not a fucking disaster!
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Mauss said in All Blacks 2025:
And yes, with hindsight there was, once again, too little attention given to international experience. I’m guessing it will return as a deciding factor in the next coaching selection post-2027, which is good news for guys like Jamie Joseph and Vern Cotter (and perhaps even Schmidt and Rennie, should they be interested).
Well, for a little bit of Devil's advocacy....
For all of the "Woe is us" and "All would be well if only we'd got Joe", the scoreline reads Razor 4 - Schmidt 0. Which is better than Sir Graham managed vs Robbie in his first four tests. And while it can be argued that it's "only Australia", it's an Australia that took a test off the Lions and beat SA in SA.
Record vs Rassie isn't great 1-3, but Rassie's coaching a generational SA team and has had umpteen years to get them where they are - and didn't have the same post-2023 exodus that we did.
3-0 vs Borthwick.
3-1 vs Galthie (you can only beat what's in front of you - but, could've been 4-0).
2-2 vs Contepomi, which is the most annoying.
And we've won the rest vs Fiji, Japan, Ireland and Italy.
Looking at a couple of other coaching options - well you couldn't get more international experience than Gatland, but he came back to Super rugby and totally shat the bed. How could this happen?
This time last year, there were strong calls for Cotter to join the squad - but then he took the reigning Champion Blues to a 7-9 record this year. You've got to ask why his significant international experience didn't help him arrest this debacle?
The ultra-internationally experienced Jamie Joseph led his Highlanders to the bottom of the table.
How did these things happen with all this international experience?
And, the maligned Hansen actually has quite a bit of international experience. As has Ryan - he nearly won a RWC.
And now Razor has too. He's coached 23 tests - and only lost 6 compared to all of the guys above.
The genius Rassie is 36/49 = 73.5%
Razor is 17/23 = 73.9%It's not a fucking disaster!
I don't think any of that is devils advocacy. You're paid up team Razor and co. :face_with_tears_of_joy:
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
@Mauss said in All Blacks 2025:
And yes, with hindsight there was, once again, too little attention given to international experience. I’m guessing it will return as a deciding factor in the next coaching selection post-2027, which is good news for guys like Jamie Joseph and Vern Cotter (and perhaps even Schmidt and Rennie, should they be interested).
Well, for a little bit of Devil's advocacy....
For all of the "Woe is us" and "All would be well if only we'd got Joe", the scoreline reads Razor 4 - Schmidt 0. Which is better than Sir Graham managed vs Robbie in his first four tests. And while it can be argued that it's "only Australia", it's an Australia that took a test off the Lions and beat SA in SA.
Record vs Rassie isn't great 1-3, but Rassie's coaching a generational SA team and has had umpteen years to get them where they are - and didn't have the same post-2023 exodus that we did.
3-0 vs Borthwick.
3-1 vs Galthie (you can only beat what's in front of you - but, could've been 4-0).
2-2 vs Contepomi, which is the most annoying.
And we've won the rest vs Fiji, Japan, Ireland and Italy.
Looking at a couple of other coaching options - well you couldn't get more international experience than Gatland, but he came back to Super rugby and totally shat the bed. How could this happen?
This time last year, there were strong calls for Cotter to join the squad - but then he took the reigning Champion Blues to a 7-9 record this year. You've got to ask why his significant international experience didn't help him arrest this debacle?
The ultra-internationally experienced Jamie Joseph led his Highlanders to the bottom of the table.
How did these things happen with all this international experience?
And, the maligned Hansen actually has quite a bit of international experience. As has Ryan - he nearly won a RWC.
And now Razor has too. He's coached 23 tests - and only lost 6 compared to all of the guys above.
The genius Rassie is 36/49 = 73.5%
Razor is 17/23 = 73.9%It's not a fucking disaster!
I don't think any of that is devils advocacy. You're paid up team Razor and co. :face_with_tears_of_joy:
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@Chris-B on international experience, the point being that coaching a club team in a competition is a completely different kettle of fish to coaching a national side, particularly the ABs. International coaches struggling with sub-par club sides doesn't invalidate that.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2025:
Well, for a little bit of Devil's advocacy....
For all of the "Woe is us" and "All would be well if only we'd got Joe", the scoreline reads Razor 4 - Schmidt 0. Which is better than Sir Graham managed vs Robbie in his first four tests. And while it can be argued that it's "only Australia", it's an Australia that took a test off the Lions and beat SA in SA.
Record vs Rassie isn't great 1-3, but Rassie's coaching a generational SA team and has had umpteen years to get them where they are - and didn't have the same post-2023 exodus that we did.
3-0 vs Borthwick.
3-1 vs Galthie (you can only beat what's in front of you - but, could've been 4-0).
2-2 vs Contepomi, which is the most annoying.
And we've won the rest vs Fiji, Japan, Ireland and Italy.
Looking at a couple of other coaching options - well you couldn't get more international experience than Gatland, but he came back to Super rugby and totally shat the bed. How could this happen?
This time last year, there were strong calls for Cotter to join the squad - but then he took the reigning Champion Blues to a 7-9 record this year. You've got to ask why his significant international experience didn't help him arrest this debacle?
The ultra-internationally experienced Jamie Joseph led his Highlanders to the bottom of the table.
How did these things happen with all this international experience?
And, the maligned Hansen actually has quite a bit of international experience. As has Ryan - he nearly won a RWC.
And now Razor has too. He's coached 23 tests - and only lost 6 compared to all of the guys above.
The genius Rassie is 36/49 = 73.5%
Razor is 17/23 = 73.9%It's not a fucking disaster!
The numbers, all things considering, are okay, I’d agree with that. But Test rugby isn’t just about numbers and averages. I’m firmly of the belief that a team is built on performances. For Erasmus, it was the 2018 Wellington Test. For Galthié, it was first beating Ireland in Dublin in 2021 before winning the Grand Slam in 2022. For someone like Andy Farrell, it was winning the Test series in NZ in 2022. None of these coaches have incredible win rates but they have a team that’s difficult to beat, due to these wins and the self-belief that comes with it.
Robertson has had three real opportunities to achieve these kind of results and hasn’t been able to get any of them. First, there were the two Tests in South Africa in 2024, a chance to avenge the lost World Cup final and build from there (2 losses). Then, there was the 2024 Autumn Internationals, a chance to repeat what their predecessors had done 100 years earlier (Robertson even had their team photo taken like the 1924-25 Invincibles) and go unbeaten (loss to France in Paris). Then, this year he had a golden chance to reclaim the Rugby Championship, with two Tests against the Boks in New Zealand (2nd place finish).
Again, it’s understandable that he hasn’t succeeded at the first hurdle. Those other coaches have also failed multiple times before solidifying their team. But for the ABs to become a genuinely good side under Robertson they have to achieve one of those goals. I’m sure that Robertson himself is aware of how important these moments are: his own tenure at the Crusaders was built on overcoming tough odds early, like winning nearly almost all of his games during the 2017 SR season with a young and injury-depleted team, often in spectacular fashion (“Mitch Hunt with the drop goal”). Such performances then gave them the confidence to go to Ellis Park and beat the Lions in their own backyard.
The good news is that there are two clear, team-defining opportunities in the coming 12 months. First, there’s the upcoming Grand Slam tour (another chance to follow in the footsteps of the Invincibles). And then, there’s the tour to South Africa in 2026. Win the series there and there will be little doubt in anyone’s mind that this AB team is a good side. But until he’s achieved one of these team-defining wins, I don’t think it’s too harsh or dramatic to be critical of Robertson. His job is to build a team that’s tough, smart and hard to beat. And you get there by winning against the odds. Numbers be damned.
@Mauss Ha - pointed that at you, because I thought I'd get a well considered response and I'm not disappointed!
But, the thing I really question is the assumption that not having coached internationally is a massive disadvantage.
Now if you've coached a top-6 international team, then you'd expect that you'd learn plenty at the margins in test matches.
But, if you've coached Japan or Italy or Fiji - I reckon that's got minimal additional value compared to coaching the Crusaders. And even those who've coached bigger teams struggle to translate that into meaningful statistics.
Which current international coaches have a higher winning percentage than Razor?
