Poll: Best AB coach - professional era
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@ACT-Crusader said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
signs started in 97 too
we didn't know it at the time, but that great team was finished at half time in the Carisbrook (?) bledisloe in 97
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@mariner4life said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
He'll get no love because he's a weird fluffybunny
But Mitch in successive weekends put 50 past South Africa and Aussie at their houses, and then won back the Bledisloe. Brought through some great ABs.
Less weird as he ages it seems.
Heard him on Devlin's show a few weeks back. Seems mature and less management speaky.
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@nonpartizan said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@Bovidae said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
Interestingly, he makes a similar case for Keiran Read vs McCaw as captain.
I know some diehard Cantabs that never rated Read as a captain, so that surprises me.
I voted for Henry but have never forgiven him for not selecting Sivivatu in the 2011 RWC squad. Guildford and then Gear FFS.
All AB coaches have had their faults.
Paul characterizes Richie as very old school and hierarchical - Read as more open and inclusive. Reckons that the newer players coming in under Read were a different generation and wouldn't have responded well Richie's strictures.
It's all hearsay, though. If you're not in the room it's very tough to know what's going on.
One of the most incredible things I remember hearing about Richie was how in Reads book he says despite rooming with him and playing with him for years Richie would never really get deeply into personal matters or talk about a lot of non rugby subject matters with him. "Outside of the team our relationship was non-existent" is a direct quote. Richie was just about business and did not want to clutter up his mind with things that were as Read puts it "superfluous to him".
Richies ability to remain task and objective/goal.oriented must be second to none but I can see how that type of leadership must be tough to be under if you want to build a relationship and feel connected with your skipper.
I can't lay my hands on Corey Jane's book right now, but he had an amusing story about how, as a newbie, he somehow found himself alone in the breakfast room with McCaw and his awkward effort at trying to make conversation.
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@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@nonpartizan said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@Bovidae said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
Interestingly, he makes a similar case for Keiran Read vs McCaw as captain.
I know some diehard Cantabs that never rated Read as a captain, so that surprises me.
I voted for Henry but have never forgiven him for not selecting Sivivatu in the 2011 RWC squad. Guildford and then Gear FFS.
All AB coaches have had their faults.
Paul characterizes Richie as very old school and hierarchical - Read as more open and inclusive. Reckons that the newer players coming in under Read were a different generation and wouldn't have responded well Richie's strictures.
It's all hearsay, though. If you're not in the room it's very tough to know what's going on.
One of the most incredible things I remember hearing about Richie was how in Reads book he says despite rooming with him and playing with him for years Richie would never really get deeply into personal matters or talk about a lot of non rugby subject matters with him. "Outside of the team our relationship was non-existent" is a direct quote. Richie was just about business and did not want to clutter up his mind with things that were as Read puts it "superfluous to him".
Richies ability to remain task and objective/goal.oriented must be second to none but I can see how that type of leadership must be tough to be under if you want to build a relationship and feel connected with your skipper.
I can't lay my hands on Corey Jane's book right now, but he had an amusing story about how, as a newbie, he somehow found himself alone in the breakfast room with McCaw and his awkward effort at trying to make conversation.
Jane was a character......McCaw ? well, he was a great player.
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@mariner4life said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@ACT-Crusader said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
signs started in 97 too
we didn't know it at the time, but that great team was finished at half time in the Carisbrook (?) bledisloe in 97
I was at that game! 50-odd points scored all at the other end of the field (I was on the wrong 22)
Saw Cullen's brilliant try live, with ZBrooke throwing a massive spiral to set him free. And also notable for Zinzan smoking Knox late in frustration and getting away with it
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@taniwharugby said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@No-Quarter loved the fact you had one of the best players on the planet turning up in the NPC too!
Was out one night in Whangarei after @Nepia 's Vikings were in town, although when chatting to Bull Allen at the pub later, he said Cully (c 20 at the time) and a couple other of the young lads were not allowed out haha
About the only good thing about that enterprise (aside from the fact the Bay dominated the team) was that I got to call Cullen as playing for my team.
@nzzp said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@mariner4life said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@ACT-Crusader said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
signs started in 97 too
we didn't know it at the time, but that great team was finished at half time in the Carisbrook (?) bledisloe in 97
I was at that game! 50-odd points scored all at the other end of the field (I was on the wrong 22)
Saw Cullen's brilliant try live, with ZBrooke throwing a massive spiral to set him free. And also notable for Zinzan smoking Knox late in frustration and getting away with it
I was there too, behind the posts on an angle so got to see all that stuff in close. Saw how much of the on field captaining Zinny did which made the decision to make Marshall captain for the EOYT in 97 even more baffling.
I saw so much live rugby in the 1994-1998 period, went to pretty much every home test, would go to Canes games and then drive back to Hamilton for Chiefs games, or up to Auckland for Blues games, and add some Warriors games in there. Then would try to get to as many Bay games during the NPC. Great time to be student. Helped that I had a mate who ran a successful computer business at the time so he would often buy tickets and pay for petrol etc.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
Went for Mitchell.
Dark days between 98-02 (signs started in 97 too) and he IMO got it back on track and started to build the foundation of our success for the years ahead.
Picked some very young players too that had talent but still had big question marks.
03 RWC, outcome was unfortunate but an experienced Aussie team had a night.
This might be your most contrarian post ever.
Mitchell's period of success in 2003 was based on Henry's Blues gameplan, and then he neutered it at the RWC by not allowing the forwards to ruck.
Henry had to completely overhaul pretty much everything that went on during Domeheads reign of psychobabble. Pretty much every player's book from that era mentions how fucked the culture was.
That team would have been better with Deans as the head coach, instead he hitched his wagon to Mitchell and blew his chance to be AB coach.
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@Nepia said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@ACT-Crusader said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
Went for Mitchell.
That team would have been better with Deans as the head coach, instead he hitched his wagon to Mitchell and blew his chance to be AB coach.
I think you're right and I think Cully more or less said that in his book.
You could probably make the case that we would have been better off with a significant re-ordering of our World Cup coaches.
87 Lochore
91 Grizz (without the co-coach debacle)
95 Hart
99 Mains
2003 Henry
2007 Henry
2011 Hansen
2015 Mitchell (or maybe 2011?)
2019 Foster
2023 Robertson -
@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@Nepia said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@ACT-Crusader said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
Went for Mitchell.
That team would have been better with Deans as the head coach, instead he hitched his wagon to Mitchell and blew his chance to be AB coach.
I think you're right and I think Cully more or less said that in his book.
You could probably make the case that we would have been better off with a significant re-ordering of our World Cup coaches.
87 Lochore
91 Grizz (without the co-coach debacle)
95 Hart
99 Mains
2003 Henry
2007 Henry
2011 Hansen
2015 Mitchell (or maybe 2011?)
2019 Foster
2023 Robertsonhow do you rationalise changing years we won or even made the final and lost?
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@Kiwiwomble TBH - not sure.
Except the Jaapies have won four times and we've onl;y won three so something is obviously wrong in this universe!
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@Chris-B ...but the ones we won were surely peak coaching no?
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@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@Kiwiwomble TBH - not sure.
Except the Jaapies have won four times and we've onl;y won three so something is obviously wrong in this universe!
Goes to show that winning a RWC takes a lot of luck. They weren't even the best team in at least two of those wins
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@Kiwiwomble said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@Chris-B ...but the ones we won were surely peak coaching no?
I mean maximize our total peak coaching capability across the 36 years of World Cups.
So, for example, Mitch in 2003 might only get 4/10 as a coach - but by 2015 maybe he's a 7/10 coach.
And even though Sir Ted won in 2011, he might have been past his peak (just for example, guys). Maybe even though he didn't win in 2007 he was 9/10 compared to 8.5/10 in 2011.
But score everybody's estimated effectiveness across the years with no reference to results and pick the order that scores highest.
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@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@Nepia said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@ACT-Crusader said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
Went for Mitchell.
That team would have been better with Deans as the head coach, instead he hitched his wagon to Mitchell and blew his chance to be AB coach.
I think you're right and I think Cully more or less said that in his book.
You could probably make the case that we would have been better off with a significant re-ordering of our World Cup coaches.
87 Lochore
91 Grizz (without the co-coach debacle)
95 Hart
99 Mains
2003 Henry
2007 Henry
2011 Hansen
2015 Mitchell (or maybe 2011?)
2019 Foster
2023 RobertsonI think you need Smith in your list, where he doesn't have a crisis of confidence at an inopportune moment.
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@Nepia said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@ACT-Crusader said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
Went for Mitchell.
Dark days between 98-02 (signs started in 97 too) and he IMO got it back on track and started to build the foundation of our success for the years ahead.
Picked some very young players too that had talent but still had big question marks.
03 RWC, outcome was unfortunate but an experienced Aussie team had a night.
This might be your most contrarian post ever.
Mitchell's period of success in 2003 was based on Henry's Blues gameplan, and then he neutered it at the RWC by not allowing the forwards to ruck.
Henry had to completely overhaul pretty much everything that went on during Domeheads reign of psychobabble. Pretty much every player's book from that era mentions how fucked the culture was.
That team would have been better with Deans as the head coach, instead he hitched his wagon to Mitchell and blew his chance to be AB coach.
And this might be your most broken record post….
There were a number of differences to the attack that Henry’s Auckland team used that what Mitchell (and Deans) used, the key one being how the midfield was setup and deployed.
Mitchell wasn’t a great man manager and he’s even admitted to not handling some of the more controversial decisions well enough. But there was a transformation of how our forwards played particularly on the defensive side which bore out in the results.
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@canefan said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@African-Monkey said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@mariner4life said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
He'll get no love because he's a weird fluffybunny
But Mitch in successive weekends put 50 past South Africa and Aussie at their houses, and then won back the Bledisloe. Brought through some great ABs.
Yeah it's funny with Mitchell, because even though he lost the public, we did some insane things in 2003, and he wasn't afraid to make big calls.
Putting McDonald into midfield at RWC2003 wasn't his smartest move
Deans selected the backline, you can't blame Mitchell for that.
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@mohikamo said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@Jet said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
Christian Cullen is my favourite player of all time.
He's not my favorite of all time, I maybe can go back a bit further than you, to a very similar player.
But he's right there.
Barry Sanders is the only stepper I rate higher than him all-time.That's an interesting test.
I only vaguely follow NFL - but, I know who Barry Sanders is.
I can go back to Bee Gee as a 19 year old, but I can't really make an honest assessment.
Slightly later, there was Batty and Stu Wilson - and then JK, but none of them were really Cullen-like.
I'll have to guess Bruce Robertson?
