Poll: Best AB coach - professional era
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@mohikamo said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
That particular team was a straight public vote I think; which makes PT and SS even more impressive; because I'd say anyone under 30 hadn't actually seen them play, just heard about them.
And go back even further than Nicholls to someone like Jimmy Hunter.
Part of the first AB team to get to the top in world rugby.I guess it would've been Sid versus Dave Loveridge (a few votes for Laidlaw?) - with the kids possibly voting for Marshall or Bachop.
I think they probably got it right - maybe Smith (passing) vs Roigard (running) will end up the same discussion.
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@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@KiwiMurph said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
Read Gregor Paul's biography of Hansen earlier this year. He makes a pretty compelling case that Hansen is a more rounded coach than Sir Ted.
Interestingly, he makes a similar case for Keiran Read vs McCaw as captain.
Hansen was phenomenal in his first four years - I think he lost 3 and drew 1 - and built probably the best ever All Black team.
With all due respect to Gregor Paul - Hansen and Read both got to operate in a 'monkey off of the back' environment due to the work done by Henry and McCaw from 07 - 11.
In 2012 for the first time in 21 years the All Blacks didn't have to carry around the tag of 'world cup chokers' which obviously grew over that period. Hansen had his captain in place with still plenty left in the tank and options at 10 with Carter still around and Cruden having taken massive strides in 2011/12 having featured at a RWC and won a Super title with the Chiefs.
Hansen's tenure reminds me of an elongated version of Hart's tenure - very successful with an established team and integrating new talent into said team - followed by a struggle once the senior heads departed (McCaw, Carter, Nonu etc). Of course Hart's drop off was more pronounced but part of that is because the Boks and Wallabies were a joke in 2016-17 (Allister Coetzee was Bok coach and the Wallabies really struggled with an exodus of talent post 2015 RWC) and it really masked how good the ABs were travelling.
Read might have been more engaging as a person for players to deal with and was a solid captain but the proof is in the pudding and he can't hold a candle to McCaw as a leader (and realistically no one was going to be able to after McCaw).
Yeah - Paul says that Read had an impossible act to follow - but, there were things he did better than McCaw. He does come out hard saying that if McCaw was captain we would have won vs the Lions, not least because Garces wouldn't have had the balls to back down McCaw over the penalty - but, also that McCaw would've been better tactically when SBW was sent off - and would've pushed back more against some of Hansen's management. You have to read the book to understand this last point.
No doubt Sir Ted set some sturdy foundations (which Hansen helped with), but the book paints the AB camp from 2008-2011 as a pretty grim and driven place, without much fun. Which is OK if you're Henry and McCaw, but not so much for Dagg and Jane - or apparently Wayne Smith, who left for the Chiefs after 2011.
Anyway, not going to diss Sir Ted too much make a point - he did a fabulous job to win in 2011. It's not a fabulous book - but, it's interesting in the detail it gets into. Interestingly, Facebook threw into my feed today that Gilbert Enoka has a book out. I'll doubtless track a copy down because this stuff interests me - and I vaguely know Gilbert. Played a couple of seasons of low grade cricket with/against him and his brother was my PE teacher at school.
Yeah I don't think the higher ups approved of their fun
Leading All Blacks misused sleeping pills
Cory Jane and Israel Dagg were involved in a competition using sleeping pills to see who could stay awake the longest, during the 2011 Rugby World Cup
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@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@mohikamo said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
I'm assuming you're not old enough to have seen Bert Cooke - and he was tiny!
Steve Pokere could take a gap, but I don't recall him having jet shoes.
I'll have to say, Super Sid?
Yep, there should have been way more olden time players in that team of the century.
Especially from the likes of the 1920's. AB rugby was extremely strong in that era.
PTM was the only other olden time player to make it; which is super impressive really; because both those players were on the back ends of their careers when TV came along.Another player I've heard old timers rave about was Johnny Smith (40's-50's)
Pokere was a neat little player. Silky i think is the word the commentators use.
Yeah - I really dislike it when people pick their all time greatest team and there's no-one picked prior to 1990. That's not all time. That's the best since 1990.
I reckon you should pretty much be constrained to having to pick one player per decade - and two or three extra picks to get to 15.
Mark Nicholls was apparently a strategic genius in the Grant Fox league.
I just spent ten minutes thinking about who PTM was - Pinetree!
If I'm picking my all time best team I'll pick it from players I've seen play, and if NZ then usually based on seeing them live. I'm still happy to pick a greatest of all time based on reading and reputation - opens it up for more Magpies players then.
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@Nepia However many you manage to cram in it will pale in comparison to the number of Nelson players who were picked in the best ever NZ team on 15 May 1870!
You've got some interesting choices to make - including who plays fullback - the Magpie or the Viking?
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@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@Nepia However many you manage to cram in it will pale in comparison to the number of Nelson players who were picked in the best ever NZ team on 15 May 1870!
You've got some interesting choices to make - including who plays fullback - the Magpie or the Viking?
Not even close, the Magpie, he was a, possibly the, great of his generation, the Viking makes my best ever team I've seen play so it's win win.
There's even a potential Nelson College boy in the running at halfback - not sure how Jimmy Mill wound up down that way for a time.
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Was guna bring up Jimmy Mill.
Every time his name gets a mention, usually got the word "outstanding" next to it.
Between him and SS at halfback for team of the century.
Yeah, Magpies, and Nelson College.
Lot of HB players in the great AB teams of the 1920's. -
@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
No doubt Sir Ted set some sturdy foundations (which Hansen helped with), but the book paints the AB camp from 2008-2011 as a pretty grim and driven place, without much fun. Which is OK if you're Henry and McCaw, but not so much for Dagg and Jane - or apparently Wayne Smith, who left for the Chiefs after 2011.
The reason I imagine it wasnt as much 'fun' was because there was an obsessive goal of the home 2011 RWC.
It's a lot easier to have a looser/fun environment when that goal has been reached and you are reigning world champions without the choker tag and a looming home world cup hanging over the head.
There's an argument to be made since McCaw and co left the attitude has swung too far in the other direction with now a relatively indifferent reaction to record losses.....
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@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@sparky Too early, though.
Carlos was locked in, just not a good kicker.
We could've fielded 10. Carter 12. Nonu from the squad - but, I don't think it was a good idea.
IIRC in 1997 or 1998 Spencer was the best goal kicker in the 3N.
Mismanagement until Henry took over ...
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To add some minor bits to the discussion about captains, a friend has watched test matches with McCaw at least 10 times, and said that he is an extremely focused, dry person who is also very fucking boring. Totally focused on the game. On the other hand, London talk in the naughts had it that he was apparently a very successful fluffybunny man about town, so there you go.
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@sparky said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
I really don't get this line of attack on Ted and McCaw that their camps weren't "fun"
They weren't meant to be bloody fun. They were the All Blacks. It's about WINNING!
They're not really attacks - I said Gregor Paul makes a pretty compelling case that Hansen was a more rounded coach than Henry and your view sort of encapsulates that difference (as far as my reading of the book goes).
Graham decided the way to win was an obsessive focus on that goal to the exclusion of most else. Which seems to be your assertion.
Hansen had - in my view - a more rounded perspective that you can win and still have fun along the way.
Paul says, "Hansen wanted to build a culture of contrasts - one where players would be driven to the brink of their physical and mental capacity, but then be allowed to relax and enjoy their downtime... Hansen didn't think he'd be able to build a sustainable winning culture if he didn't afford the players the opportunity to enjoy the experience and escape the pressure and tension of being an All Black."
Which was different to what had been happening with Graham at the helm.
However, there's a 400 page book that explains lots more nuance - and I can't be typing it all out - but, I came away thinking Hansen was more rounded and hence my vote in the poll.
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@Chris-B said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
I guess it would've been Sid versus Dave Loveridge
Sid would be the best 9 I've seen by some distance - except his pass was pretty garbage by Test standards. Running game, kicking and scrum work were insanely good. Tough bugger too.
There's a 22min Youtube video of a Wales Test against (in '72 I think) and he completely outplays Gareth Edwards - not for the 1st time.
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@mariner4life said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@ACT-Crusader said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
A bit of revisionism going on about Howlett. He scored some pretty amazing tries both individually and then on the back of his speed, chase and support play. If that’s not game breaking not sure what is.
He worked hard to get into positions for the offload or short pass off the shoulder. When midfielders or forwards looked to be tackled and Howlett pops up and breaks the play open for a try.
@MN5 Lote? Yeah nah. Not even a top 5 Wallaby winger.
fucking this. Doug Howlett did not fluke those tries he was brilliant at arriving when and where needed and had jet shoes. Not dark enough to escape "safe white guy" vibes i guess? Brilliant winger that shits over every 14 we've had since, including Ben Smith.
Ben Smith would get my vote here.
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@Chris-B I think the thing is, we needed Henry's approach to give Hansen the freedom for his.
Once we got over the 2011 hump, she was all gravy...well, until 2017...
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I'm not a massive fan of Gregor Paul so I won't be buying his book.
Yes, fatty Hansen is more rounded but not as rounded as Ian Foster. (Boom, Boom)
Ultimately , I don't see that the fact the All Blacks is a harsh environment a lot of the time is a problem. I think the fact that its values are Spartan is a massive strength. It's great if players have a good time and make friends along the way, but ultimately they are in the All Blacks to be the best Rugby players they can be and to win.
I have a lot of respect for Steve Hansen as an All Blacks coach, indeed I think alongside Brian Lochore and Graham Henry he's one of the three great All Blacks coaches of my lifetime.
But I rate Henry higher for two reasons.
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Henry was able to clear the barnacles of the boat from the transition from amateurism to professionalism and subsequent coaches have benefitted massively from his legacy.
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Hansen took his eye of the ball in the last few years. He caught too caught up with "trying to be the most dominant sports team of all time" and developing a style that would appeal to the casual rugby fan that he moved away from the foundations of dominant set piece and winning collisions around the park.
Winning a third World Cup in a row was always going to be tough, but the tactic of going wide so early without earning to do so made it a lot tougher.
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@sparky Fair enough, I have no problem with people rating Graham higher. It's pretty subjective - and especially since we were never in the room.
I'm sure both would do a few things differently if they had their times again. For Graham e.g. that "Rest and Rehab" programme where he pulled the ABs from Super rugby was something he didn't repeat.
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@taniwharugby said in Poll: Best AB coach - professional era:
@Chris-B I think the thing is, we needed Henry's approach to give Hansen the freedom for his.
Once we got over the 2011 hump, she was all gravy...well, until 2017...
Maybe. It's possible that we could have won more comfortably in 2011 with a less intense approach.
e.g. we possibly would have been better off if Piri hadn't snuck off for a bit of extra kicking practice and torn his groin. If he'd just chilled in the bar with a small beer!
However, since we won there is nothing that is to be changed!
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I don't remember the Henry era being any more of less tense than the Hansen era if I'm being honest, and as it's Paul writing about it I'm even less convinced.
Yeah McCaw is a boring personality, but before that we had Tana breathing life back into things as a different type of captain than we usually had, and there were younger players with personality like Jane and Dagg (before they put a microphone in front of him and he became a bore), and Ted always had devilish sense of humour and didn't seem any more obsessive to win than Hansen.
