Red Cards & HIA
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@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
In my day, an M-1 or M-2 had to go across the chest of the ‘missed’ player, not his arse
Christ that's not been the case since I started playing, so you're going back more than 40 years to justify this incident?
@Bones said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
In my day, an M-1 or M-2 had to go across the chest of the ‘missed’ player, not his arse
Christ that's not been the case since I started playing, so you're going back more than 40 years to justify this incident?
I’m not trying to justify this incident
I’m trying to get a sense of what the officials are looking at
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@Jet said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
Genuine question, not stirring the pot.
So please take a moment before knee jerking down my throat.
If Roigard had passed behind the oncoming BB, with BB acting as the dummy runner, and BB had clattered into Beirne is that a penalty against BB for obstruction or a penalty against Beirne for ‘tackling’ the man (BB) without the ball?
We had an iteration of that when Freddie Steward and Hugo Keenan collided.
Whomever hits the other in the head (regardless of game state) gets sent off. It’s that simple.
Forward pass, dummy runners etc etc are all red herrings. Don’t hit the other lad in the head. That’s the point of all this nonsense in the first place. To protect the head.
For the record I’m from the “it’s not tiddlywinks” school of hard knocks. I don’t think anyone should be sent off bar ripping out someone’s testicle.
But if you send off one of my lads this week , I expect to see the lad from the opposition sent off the next week if he does a version of the same offense. And I expect fans of that team to go “fair enough”.
What we have now is just garbage.
We could have won the Lions series if Vunipola gets same sanction as SBW for forearm smashing a prone Beaudy Barrett in the face.
We could have won the Lions series if Sean O Brien gets red for knocking Naholo out with a swinging arm.
We could have won the Irish series if Taavao and Porter received the same sanction.
We could have won World Cup final if Cane and Kolisi received the same sanction.
Etc etc etc.
I don’t forget, but officialdom and opposition fans seem to.
The Irish (Sexton and Murray) were the worst onfield card chasers. Hands aloft at every ruck looking for referee intervention.
Now the Irish feel aggrieved and their fans will lean on this card as the reason they lost
It’s lamentable carry on from World Rugby.
You see, this was given red at the time and I called it live as that was consistent with how it was being reffed at that point. Before the decision was made, people were calling me an idiot and saying i didn't understand rugby if i thought that would be a red.
I don't think that would be given as a red today, they would look harder for mitigation. I think it would be more likely decided a rugby incident with two players going for a bouncing ball, maybe a penalty for high contact but mitigated because the Irish player dipped to collect the ball, or because Steward looked like he was pulling out of the contact / bracing for contact etc.
The lack of consistent application of the decision making process is the problem but that is in part because of how fans reacted to individual decisions feeling unfair.
As it happens, I still think the Cane tackle would be red today.
@Dodge said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@Jet said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
Genuine question, not stirring the pot.
So please take a moment before knee jerking down my throat.
If Roigard had passed behind the oncoming BB, with BB acting as the dummy runner, and BB had clattered into Beirne is that a penalty against BB for obstruction or a penalty against Beirne for ‘tackling’ the man (BB) without the ball?
We had an iteration of that when Freddie Steward and Hugo Keenan collided.
Whomever hits the other in the head (regardless of game state) gets sent off. It’s that simple.
Forward pass, dummy runners etc etc are all red herrings. Don’t hit the other lad in the head. That’s the point of all this nonsense in the first place. To protect the head.
For the record I’m from the “it’s not tiddlywinks” school of hard knocks. I don’t think anyone should be sent off bar ripping out someone’s testicle.
But if you send off one of my lads this week , I expect to see the lad from the opposition sent off the next week if he does a version of the same offense. And I expect fans of that team to go “fair enough”.
What we have now is just garbage.
We could have won the Lions series if Vunipola gets same sanction as SBW for forearm smashing a prone Beaudy Barrett in the face.
We could have won the Lions series if Sean O Brien gets red for knocking Naholo out with a swinging arm.
We could have won the Irish series if Taavao and Porter received the same sanction.
We could have won World Cup final if Cane and Kolisi received the same sanction.
Etc etc etc.
I don’t forget, but officialdom and opposition fans seem to.
The Irish (Sexton and Murray) were the worst onfield card chasers. Hands aloft at every ruck looking for referee intervention.
Now the Irish feel aggrieved and their fans will lean on this card as the reason they lost
It’s lamentable carry on from World Rugby.
You see, this was given red at the time and I called it live as that was consistent with how it was being reffed at that point. Before the decision was made, people were calling me an idiot and saying i didn't understand rugby if i thought that would be a red.
I don't think that would be given as a red today, they would look harder for mitigation. I think it would be more likely decided a rugby incident with two players going for a bouncing ball, maybe a penalty for high contact but mitigated because the Irish player dipped to collect the ball, or because Steward looked like he was pulling out of the contact / bracing for contact etc.
The lack of consistent application of the decision making process is the problem but that is in part because of how fans reacted to individual decisions feeling unfair.
As it happens, I still think the Cane tackle would be red today.
Listen to Jaco in the clip "high degree of danger, always upright".
Contrast that with Beirne getting his red rescinded.
Contrast that with Porter breaking Retallicks face and getting yellow only.
They need to remove all the grey areas from this.
Hit the head you're off.
We will have a few games of 12 on 12, it might be fun, and eventually they might learn. OR we need to just let everything go.
This current hybrid sport of fastidious officials in one moment to laissez faire the next is unacceptable.
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@Bones said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
In my day, an M-1 or M-2 had to go across the chest of the ‘missed’ player, not his arse
Christ that's not been the case since I started playing, so you're going back more than 40 years to justify this incident?
I’m not trying to justify this incident
I’m trying to get a sense of what the officials are looking at
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@Bones said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@MiketheSnow said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
In my day, an M-1 or M-2 had to go across the chest of the ‘missed’ player, not his arse
Christ that's not been the case since I started playing, so you're going back more than 40 years to justify this incident?
I’m not trying to justify this incident
I’m trying to get a sense of what the officials are looking at
Prolly didn't have television let alone replays to help with decisions way back then.
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lets extend that logic then, either they're all off or none off?
All off - early 2023 interpretations effectively - was massively unpopular as it punished an always high lethal clothes line to the face in the same way it punished an accidental, drop in height passive collision. Most of the unpopularity came from the SH from memory, particularly Aus.
None off - Always high, loads of time shot to the face which knocks a player out gets a yellow. No incentive not to tackle high, no attempt to deal with the concussion issue in rugby etc.
Personally I wouldn't like to see it, as rugby is a dynamic contact sport and an accident or nothing incident can spoil a game. I also think we have to try and deal with the concussion issue.
Therefore that doesn't feel realistic or desirable to me. Mitigation is crucial, clarity in decision making is crucial. Some disagreement is inevitable so we're stuck with it IMO
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@antipodean I'm more concerned with the fact the TMO had all that time to look at it, made his call and it was deemed wrong.
Does he get sanctioned for that? I mean in terms of his job, that is almighty fuck-up, and as some have said, while we will never know, it has potentially impacted the outcome of the game.
Credibility of the sport continues to fall.
@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
I'm more concerned with the fact the TMO had all that time to look at it, made his call and it was deemed wrong.
This. There was a Yellow & Review so they must have been 100% sure. It didn't look a Red to me but the TMO and the Ref decided on a Red so that was that.
Complete fuck-up in an event designed to grow the game in the US.
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@taniwharugby said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@antipodean I'm more concerned with the fact the TMO had all that time to look at it, made his call and it was deemed wrong.
Does he get sanctioned for that? I mean in terms of his job, that is almighty fuck-up, and as some have said, while we will never know, it has potentially impacted the outcome of the game.
Credibility of the sport continues to fall.
It is a joke. In this case, I thought a YC looked about right, but by the letter of the law and recent interpretation, it should be a RC.
There has to be a system that allows the game to flow with some penalty for the player, but doesn't ruin the event for fans.
I think I've settled on a YC for all of these, with the player replaced after 10 mins.
If you are out of replacements, you can't send another out.
@gt12 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
There has to be a system that allows the game to flow with some penalty for the player, but doesn't ruin the event for fans.
I thought that was a Yellow with a Review.
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@gt12 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
There has to be a system that allows the game to flow with some penalty for the player, but doesn't ruin the event for fans.
I thought that was a Yellow with a Review.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@gt12 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
There has to be a system that allows the game to flow with some penalty for the player, but doesn't ruin the event for fans.
I thought that was a Yellow with a Review.
This could push World Rugby to adopting it. Realistically, that would be a nice start.
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lets extend that logic then, either they're all off or none off?
All off - early 2023 interpretations effectively - was massively unpopular as it punished an always high lethal clothes line to the face in the same way it punished an accidental, drop in height passive collision. Most of the unpopularity came from the SH from memory, particularly Aus.
None off - Always high, loads of time shot to the face which knocks a player out gets a yellow. No incentive not to tackle high, no attempt to deal with the concussion issue in rugby etc.
Personally I wouldn't like to see it, as rugby is a dynamic contact sport and an accident or nothing incident can spoil a game. I also think we have to try and deal with the concussion issue.
Therefore that doesn't feel realistic or desirable to me. Mitigation is crucial, clarity in decision making is crucial. Some disagreement is inevitable so we're stuck with it IMO
@Dodge said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
lets extend that logic then, either they're all off or none off?
All off - early 2023 interpretations effectively - was massively unpopular as it punished an always high lethal clothes line to the face in the same way it punished an accidental, drop in height passive collision. Most of the unpopularity came from the SH from memory, particularly Aus.
None off - Always high, loads of time shot to the face which knocks a player out gets a yellow. No incentive not to tackle high, no attempt to deal with the concussion issue in rugby etc.
Personally I wouldn't like to see it, as rugby is a dynamic contact sport and an accident or nothing incident can spoil a game. I also think we have to try and deal with the concussion issue.
Therefore that doesn't feel realistic or desirable to me. Mitigation is crucial, clarity in decision making is crucial. Some disagreement is inevitable so we're stuck with it IMO
What about all yellow?
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lets extend that logic then, either they're all off or none off?
All off - early 2023 interpretations effectively - was massively unpopular as it punished an always high lethal clothes line to the face in the same way it punished an accidental, drop in height passive collision. Most of the unpopularity came from the SH from memory, particularly Aus.
None off - Always high, loads of time shot to the face which knocks a player out gets a yellow. No incentive not to tackle high, no attempt to deal with the concussion issue in rugby etc.
Personally I wouldn't like to see it, as rugby is a dynamic contact sport and an accident or nothing incident can spoil a game. I also think we have to try and deal with the concussion issue.
Therefore that doesn't feel realistic or desirable to me. Mitigation is crucial, clarity in decision making is crucial. Some disagreement is inevitable so we're stuck with it IMO
@Dodge said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
lets extend that logic then, either they're all off or none off?
All off - early 2023 interpretations effectively - was massively unpopular as it punished an always high lethal clothes line to the face in the same way it punished an accidental, drop in height passive collision. Most of the unpopularity came from the SH from memory, particularly Aus.
None off - Always high, loads of time shot to the face which knocks a player out gets a yellow. No incentive not to tackle high, no attempt to deal with the concussion issue in rugby etc.
Personally I wouldn't like to see it, as rugby is a dynamic contact sport and an accident or nothing incident can spoil a game. I also think we have to try and deal with the concussion issue.
Therefore that doesn't feel realistic or desirable to me. Mitigation is crucial, clarity in decision making is crucial. Some disagreement is inevitable so we're stuck with it IMO
Remember what’s driving this. Potential litigation down the road.
It’s not us arguing over whether an attempted intercept should be a yellow if knocked on.
We are being told that there is a problem with concussions in the game. Steve Thompson, Steve Divine etc. There has also been insinuations that concussions have led to suicides of some players. We also have a couple of high profile players with ALS. Not sure if related.
As I stated before. I’m old school. I liked when Bechers Brook was a hard fence to jump. I like car crashes in F1. I like ice hockey fights.
But fine, that was then, this is now. We need to clean everything up. And I am wrong. I’m the dinosaur.
BUT. If the head is sacred , it’s sacred.
Jessie Kriel was fine after Canes hit. Beaudy was fine after Beirnes. Savea was bloodied but fine after Kolisi’s. But we don’t ref on outcome we ref on the offence. So they should all be red. And as an addendum to that. If the ref is saying things like “High degree of danger”…it should be a mandatory HIA for the player who got hit in the head.
Otherwise this is all just window dressing and arse covering for the potential court case down the road and not a real effort to clean up the game.
I was quite happy with Rugby up until the mid 2010’s but what had happened since is not progress….its a far worse product we are being served up.
We went from nobody ever being sent off or sin binned, to not being able to get through a game without a team going down to 14 in the space of a few years.
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@gt12 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
There has to be a system that allows the game to flow with some penalty for the player, but doesn't ruin the event for fans.
I thought that was a Yellow with a Review.
@Victor-Meldrew said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
@gt12 said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
There has to be a system that allows the game to flow with some penalty for the player, but doesn't ruin the event for fans.
I thought that was a Yellow with a Review.
M’be there ought to be a time limit for decision? At least game proceeds either with full 15 or while bunker prevaricates!
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At 4:50 in the post match the journalist asked Razor: “It was the right call?” regarding the Beirne incident.
Razors riposte:
“it was a red card wasn’t it?, so then it’s a red card”.
Three days later world rugby tell us :
It is not a red card. -
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Shoulder to the head of a player, no attempt to get low. If it is not a red card under current rules, then what is?
If no one knows if this is a red or yellow, then it is a big problem with the clarity of the rules.
Just shows how broken the game is. -
lets extend that logic then, either they're all off or none off?
All off - early 2023 interpretations effectively - was massively unpopular as it punished an always high lethal clothes line to the face in the same way it punished an accidental, drop in height passive collision. Most of the unpopularity came from the SH from memory, particularly Aus.
None off - Always high, loads of time shot to the face which knocks a player out gets a yellow. No incentive not to tackle high, no attempt to deal with the concussion issue in rugby etc.
Personally I wouldn't like to see it, as rugby is a dynamic contact sport and an accident or nothing incident can spoil a game. I also think we have to try and deal with the concussion issue.
Therefore that doesn't feel realistic or desirable to me. Mitigation is crucial, clarity in decision making is crucial. Some disagreement is inevitable so we're stuck with it IMO
@Dodge said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
lets extend that logic then, either they're all off or none off?
All off - early 2023 interpretations effectively - was massively unpopular as it punished an always high lethal clothes line to the face in the same way it punished an accidental, drop in height passive collision. Most of the unpopularity came from the SH from memory, particularly Aus.
None off - Always high, loads of time shot to the face which knocks a player out gets a yellow. No incentive not to tackle high, no attempt to deal with the concussion issue in rugby etc.
Personally I wouldn't like to see it, as rugby is a dynamic contact sport and an accident or nothing incident can spoil a game. I also think we have to try and deal with the concussion issue.
Therefore that doesn't feel realistic or desirable to me. Mitigation is crucial, clarity in decision making is crucial. Some disagreement is inevitable so we're stuck with it IMO
How about KISS?
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Foul play head contact no HIA -- tackler on report. Two reports in game = YC
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Foul play head contact HIA -- automatic YC
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Mitigation stays yellow
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Clumsy no mitigation 20 minute red
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Deliberate straight red
Post match players on report review, with possibility of multi game suspesion if considered appropriate, e.g dangerous technique.
Game keeps flowing, and easy to ref!
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They were/are foaming in the mouth that Clarke didn’t get sent for his high shot of Tommy O Brien.
Clemency for me but none for thee seems to be the mantra.
@Jet said in Ireland v All Blacks - Chicago2:
They were/are foaming in the mouth that Clarke didn’t get sent for his high shot of Tommy O Brien.
Clemency for me but none for thee seems to be the mantra.
I was wondering if that would be brought up
No replays but captain asked the ref to look at it
