All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.
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@akan004 said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@Nepia said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@akan004 The darker dude is an on to it guy, but the one with the punchable face just expressed Kafe's comments but said it a bit calmer.
I'll definitely watch them again, they even made TJ seem less annoying than usual.
I'm kinda sympathetic to both sides of the argument here so I was ok with his comments. The ruling was correct imo, but I felt it was the wrong one when I watched it live. Took me a day to change my mind after seeing a still of Julian Savea possibly being in close enough proximity to make the potential ankle tap. Generally speaking though, both these jokers are pretty fair and level headed.
I've now had a chance to go back and watch the whole thing unfold as well. This time with the pause button at the ready through every angle. While I first thought it was a marginal call that entered the Veldsman lottery I now think he got the call bang on (as did Owens on the Coles non-try).
For starters if you look through all of this please turn the sound down. I had Marshall and Smith instantly reacting because neither had noticed it in real time so their last two minutes of waffling was redundant. They were never going to change their mind unless they witnessed DHP pull a switchblade out his pocket. I can only imagine what Kearns and Kafer were like.
Unlike that Pfitzy guy on GAGR I'm not going to take selective screenshots that only paint one picture while omitting the ones around it that paint a different one.Sequence of events as I see them:
- Phipps passes to Foley who has DHP outside him and Speight further out. Read is marking Foley, Savea marking DHP. Foley has noticed Speight in the clear, dummied slightly to DHP and stepped inside Read to make a clear break. Excellent play by Foley
- Read instantly turns, Savea takes slightly longer to notice and then turns himself to chase. DHP is on a collision course with Savea in trying to support Foley and bumps into him. Savea and DHP get slightly tangled but neither are looking at each other DHPs focus is on supporting Foley, Saveas focus on trying to turn and chase. To keep balance DHP raises an elbow at Savea and Savea does the same. Neither look to be playing at each other just trying to keep up and keep in play.
- At the same time Read is watching Foleys line which is angled toward the sideline and track him. Again eyes are only on Foley and at one moment Read, DHP and Savea are bouncing off each other with DHP doing a great job of forcing his way between them. Arms from all three players can be seen across each other at any precise moment. DHPs arm comes across Savea then Saveas arm comes up then DHP bounces over to Read and puts his other arm across Read who does the same back. All just three players converging into the same square metre and jostling. No problems with any of it by Law. It is all in the same vein as Foley on Coles later in the game.
- Foley is now drawing a defender and has a clear pass to Speight which he makes. At this moment DHP is slightly ahead of Speight and Savea is about level with him.
- From this moment on DHP runs a line directly toward Speight. He is already in a support position but is intentionally running a line to get in the way of Saveas chase. Savea is close enough to have a crack and has about 24 metres to catch up. As DHP gets close enough he raises his arm and pushes Savea off his stride.
Now here is the clincher to me. The moment DHP takes out Savea he decides it is job done, looks inside to the posts and starts to pull up. If he was running legit support as claimed why didn't he continue supporting?
Now all of this happen in a second or two. Everyone is working off instinct. The only reason I can see for DHP to run that angle was to impede Savea. He may have even got away with it if he had simply run into him but raising his elbow and pushing out is what convicted him. He ran a line to block a would be tackler who was a high risk of catching the ball carrier.
Yes, this happens a lot in games but to get away with it you need to be a bit more subtle than raising your elbow and pushing out.
The call was correct in my eyes.
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
Savea is close enough to have a crack and has about 24 metres to catch up
He IS close enough to have a crack. But he doesn't at that point because he's backing his pace. And this is where we see the actions of DHP being completely unnecessary, HOWEVER you don't really know how much faster anyone is without seeing a foot race.
With that in mind, here are two more selective images.
The first is neither Speight nor Savea at full pace because one is receiving a pass, and one is making their decision on defence.
The second is the point just before DHP raises his elbow.
Reckon Save is going to lose even ankle tap range a few steps inside the 22. But then, he couldn't have known that either.
Shame DHP didn't bump him that hard when he was tackling him...
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@Crucial said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
Savea is close enough to have a crack and has about 24 metres to catch up
He IS close enough to have a crack. But he doesn't at that point because he's backing his pace. And this is where we see the actions of DHP being completely unnecessary, HOWEVER you don't really know how much faster anyone is without seeing a foot race.
With that in mind, here are two more selective images.
The first is neither Speight nor Savea at full pace because one is receiving a pass, and one is making their decision on defence.
The second is the point just before DHP raises his elbow.
Reckon Save is going to lose even ankle tap range a few steps inside the 22. But then, he couldn't have known that either.
Shame DHP didn't bump him that hard when he was tackling him...
@NTA said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
Reckon Save is going to lose even ankle tap range a few steps inside the 22. But then, he couldn't have known that either.
Judging by Savea's burst of speed, he wasn't going to lose any ground on Speight without DHP's interference.
Shame DHP didn't bump him that hard when he was tackling him...
The one I felt sorry for was Frisby. It was like watching a pram being thrown in front of a runaway, well, bus...
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That's the thing though, the rule book doesn't differentiate if Savea is chasing Speight or Moore, nor if it is Franks chasing Folau or Speight and whether they can catch them, just that you cant interfere.
But it would have been interesting to see how they would have ruled it had it been a speedster like Franks on the wing that DHP gave a nudge.
If he had ran the line without the little push, he'd of been fine.
@antipodean that bump off was all TR Jnr was talking about...he said if a bus is coming, get out the way!
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That's the thing though, the rule book doesn't differentiate if Savea is chasing Speight or Moore, nor if it is Franks chasing Folau or Speight and whether they can catch them, just that you cant interfere.
But it would have been interesting to see how they would have ruled it had it been a speedster like Franks on the wing that DHP gave a nudge.
If he had ran the line without the little push, he'd of been fine.
@antipodean that bump off was all TR Jnr was talking about...he said if a bus is coming, get out the way!
@taniwharugby I can almost guarantee that Franks would've been the one to push off DHP.....
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@taniwharugby I can almost guarantee that Franks would've been the one to push off DHP.....
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@taniwharugby I can almost guarantee that Franks would've been the one to push off DHP.....
damn right he will, right in the eyes! hahaha!
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@taniwharugby I can almost guarantee that Franks would've been the one to push off DHP.....
damn right he will, right in the eyes! hahaha!
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@taniwharugby I can almost guarantee that Franks would've been the one to push off DHP.....
damn right he will, right in the eyes! hahaha!
LOL quality.
Franks would have been 20 metres upfield, offside by two fucking metres like he is every other phase of play.
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@NTA your second picture there shows the danger of a static photo to argue the point of a moving situation.
It may be exactly as you describe however DHP has already effected Saveas run and slowed him in the split second before raising his elbow.
Now if we really want to be pedantic about Laws DHP was at one point ahead of his team mate in possession of the ball and continued moving forward.....
@taniwharugby on the Rugbyrefs forum they made the same point about Franks and agreed in a materiality call it would mean they wouldn't call back the try. When judging materiality they look at the actual situation not a general one. -
@NTA your second picture there shows the danger of a static photo to argue the point of a moving situation.
It may be exactly as you describe however DHP has already effected Saveas run and slowed him in the split second before raising his elbow.
Now if we really want to be pedantic about Laws DHP was at one point ahead of his team mate in possession of the ball and continued moving forward.....
@taniwharugby on the Rugbyrefs forum they made the same point about Franks and agreed in a materiality call it would mean they wouldn't call back the try. When judging materiality they look at the actual situation not a general one.@Crucial said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
It may be exactly as you describe however DHP has already effected Saveas run and slowed him in the split second before raising his elbow.
So it "may" be as I described, but DHP has "definitely" affected Savea at this point.
Right. I'm taking your word for that, I suppose...
:rolling_eyes:
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@Crucial said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
It may be exactly as you describe however DHP has already effected Saveas run and slowed him in the split second before raising his elbow.
So it "may" be as I described, but DHP has "definitely" affected Savea at this point.
Right. I'm taking your word for that, I suppose...
:rolling_eyes:
@NTA said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
It may be exactly as you describe however DHP has already effected Saveas run and slowed him in the split second before raising his elbow.
So it "may" be as I described, but DHP has "definitely" affected Savea at this point.
Right. I'm taking your word for that, I suppose...
:rolling_eyes:
Thank god for that. A reply without a stupid gif.
The "may be as you describe" comment was because we can't actually see in that shot that is the moment before lifting the elbow. We can, however, see that DHP is already in contact.
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this argument is getting dumber by the hour
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this argument is getting dumber by the hour
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@NTA said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
It may be exactly as you describe however DHP has already effected Saveas run and slowed him in the split second before raising his elbow.
So it "may" be as I described, but DHP has "definitely" affected Savea at this point.
Right. I'm taking your word for that, I suppose...
:rolling_eyes:
Thank god for that. A reply without a stupid gif.
The "may be as you describe" comment was because we can't actually see in that shot that is the moment before lifting the elbow. We can, however, see that DHP is already in contact.
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
The "may be as you describe" comment was because we can't actually see in that shot that is the moment before lifting the elbow. We can, however, see that DHP is already in contact.
Contact isn't actually problem - you said as much in your analysis with various arms and whatnot. Shoulder-to-shoulder is fine.
Its the point where DHP actually pushes Savea off his line that is the issue, which basically happens in the next half-step.
I'm just making the point that Speight was never going to be caught in a tackle - but maybe an ankle tap - from that point. Which highlights how pointless (and damaging) DHP's actions were.
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@mariner4life no you are.
@taniwharugby Its page 13 of the thread. What do you expect?
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@Crucial said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
The "may be as you describe" comment was because we can't actually see in that shot that is the moment before lifting the elbow. We can, however, see that DHP is already in contact.
Contact isn't actually problem - you said as much in your analysis with various arms and whatnot. Shoulder-to-shoulder is fine.
Its the point where DHP actually pushes Savea off his line that is the issue, which basically happens in the next half-step.
I'm just making the point that Speight was never going to be caught in a tackle - but maybe an ankle tap - from that point. Which highlights how pointless (and damaging) DHP's actions were.
@NTA said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@Crucial said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
The "may be as you describe" comment was because we can't actually see in that shot that is the moment before lifting the elbow. We can, however, see that DHP is already in contact.
Contact isn't actually problem - you said as much in your analysis with various arms and whatnot. Shoulder-to-shoulder is fine.
Its the point where DHP actually pushes Savea off his line that is the issue, which basically happens in the next half-step.
I'm just making the point that Speight was never going to be caught in a tackle - but maybe an ankle tap - from that point. Which highlights how pointless (and damaging) DHP's actions were.
No. Owen's call was that DHP deliberately changed his line to impede Savea. He didn't mention the elbow. The elbow thing just made it all the more obvious and brought it to attention.
The call was for deliberate obstruction. -
this argument is getting dumber by the hour
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
this argument is getting dumber by the hour
We've seen blown up stills, however we're yet to see frame by frame images with bright neon arrows accompanied by monotone voice over commentary. So still has some ways to go.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
this argument is getting dumber by the hour
We've seen blown up stills, however we're yet to see frame by frame images with bright neon arrows accompanied by monotone voice over commentary. So still has some ways to go.
@ACT-Crusader good point. I can't wait for that.
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Are you guys done? Can we talk about how Owens cheated us out of that last try? Forward pass my ass, that was a try.
#Cheated #UnfairRefs #NoRespect #ImGonnaGoCryNow
@Unco said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
Are you guys done? Can we talk about how Owens cheated us out of that last try? Forward pass my ass, that was a try.
#Cheated #UnfairRefs #NoRespect #ImGonnaGoCryNow
Two trys! Score line flattered Oz
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Don't forget Coles getting ripped off by that bastard Foley who should have seen yellow for obstruction.
THREE tries!
