England v All Blacks
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@Landers92 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@MN5 yes, still a pinch. Just passing on the reasoning.
Yeah but they have three guys who can cover 12 in Tupea, LF and Ardie. I'd prefer Ioane there to cover centre and wing with that added dynamism that ALB lacks.
@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Landers92 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@MN5 yes, still a pinch. Just passing on the reasoning.
Yeah but they have three guys who can cover 12 in Tupea, LF and Ardie. I'd prefer Ioane there to cover centre and wing with that added dynamism that ALB lacks.
Sititi covers 13 as well , best distributor in open space in the team
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@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Landers92 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@MN5 yes, still a pinch. Just passing on the reasoning.
Yeah but they have three guys who can cover 12 in Tupea, LF and Ardie. I'd prefer Ioane there to cover centre and wing with that added dynamism that ALB lacks.
Sititi covers 13 as well , best distributor in open space in the team
@kiwiinmelb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Landers92 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@MN5 yes, still a pinch. Just passing on the reasoning.
Yeah but they have three guys who can cover 12 in Tupea, LF and Ardie. I'd prefer Ioane there to cover centre and wing with that added dynamism that ALB lacks.
Sititi covers 13 as well , best distributor in open space in the team
You certainly wouldn't see Rassie wasting a spot with the likes of ALB.
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@Chris-B said in England Vs All Blacks:
It would be interesting to do a detailed season-wide analysis of catching high balls to verify who is best (and worst). Not just a raw score of catches and drops - but, looking at catches in traffic and outcomes compared with expected outcomes - some sort of rational scoring system and commentary.
Unfortunately, it would probably require "someone" to watch all the games again. Maybe he (or she!) can do it next year!
That sounds like an awful lot of work for whoever you’re referring to.
Anyways, speaking of unpaid labour and the exploitation of the working class, this whole high ball-discussion reminds me of a recent Gary’s Economics-video where he’s talking about the rising housing prices. He makes the point that everyone thinks their specific city has a housing crisis while, in reality, it’s a global issue, necessitated by the growing inequality between the ultrarich and the working poor. [Just in case I happened to have piqued someone’s interest, this is the video I’m referring to: youtube.co/watch?v=BTlUyS-T-_4]
I think a similar misconception is at work in the high ball-discussion. The reality is that it’s not just the All Blacks who are experiencing a high ball-crisis. All teams are currently struggling with defensive kick receipts: Welsh fans are about ready to lynch Blair Murray, Freddie Steward shelled multiple high balls against the Wallabies on the 1st of November, Tom Wright didn’t catch a single attacking bomb against the Boks at Ellis Park, and, for the All Blacks XV, 6ft3 Chay Fihaki couldn’t deal with the England A aerials. Whether you're a tall high ball-expert or a scrumcapped Bok midget, the results will most likely be the same: you're going to drop more balls than you're going to catch.
Right now, if your halfback has a solid kicking game, chances are you’re going to be handsomely rewarded for going to the boot. Quietly, box-kicking 9s have been making a clear comeback: Nic White was crucial for the Wallaby success against both the Lions and the Boks, Reinach’s contestable kicking has been instrumental in the post-Eden Park Bok resurgence, and someone like Ben Spencer, the 33-year old Bath halfback, has suddenly become an important piece within the English attacking puzzle.
Galthié has already been criticized for quite a few selection errors against the Springboks but arguably his biggest one was selecting Le Garrec ahead of Maxime Lucu. Le Garrec’s kicks were consistently too deep at the Stade de France which gave the Boks backfield breathing space. Whenever the kicks were on the money, there was little that Kolbe, Willemse and Arendse could do against the French chasers.
Anyway, all of this to say that this isn’t something uniquely pertinent to the All Blacks alone. But where the ABs have been lacking, I think, is in those moments right before and after high balls. What the ABs need to do, more than anything else, is work on their defensive retreat and make sure that any spilt ball from the high ball is cleaned up.
This will be especially critical against England. The English chasers have very little interest in actually catching the ball: they will aim to flood the receipt space with their band of chasing wingers/flankers, making sure that the AB back 3 can’t catch cleanly. After that, they can either (1) attack the space behind themselves (see Pollock try against Wallabies) or (2) release the ball to a backline that is already expertly aligned by George Ford and ready to pounce.
So in my view, while the catch is obviously important, it’s only the first step. What is as crucial, if not more, is the collective coordination both before and immediately after the catch. The AB backline will need to match the speed of English realignment and get off the line, making sure that England don’t have the clean width of the field to attack in these kinds of situations.
@Mauss said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Chris-B said in England Vs All Blacks:
It would be interesting to do a detailed season-wide analysis of catching high balls to verify who is best (and worst). Not just a raw score of catches and drops - but, looking at catches in traffic and outcomes compared with expected outcomes - some sort of rational scoring system and commentary.
Unfortunately, it would probably require "someone" to watch all the games again. Maybe he (or she!) can do it next year!
That sounds like an awful lot of work for whoever you’re referring to.
Anyways, speaking of unpaid labour and the exploitation of the working class, this whole high ball-discussion reminds me of a recent Gary’s Economics-video where he’s talking about the rising housing prices. He makes the point that everyone thinks their specific city has a housing crisis while, in reality, it’s a global issue, necessitated by the growing inequality between the ultrarich and the working poor. [Just in case I happened to have piqued someone’s interest, this is the video I’m referring to: youtube.co/watch?v=BTlUyS-T-_4]
I think a similar misconception is at work in the high ball-discussion. The reality is that it’s not just the All Blacks who are experiencing a high ball-crisis. All teams are currently struggling with defensive kick receipts: Welsh fans are about ready to lynch Blair Murray, Freddie Steward shelled multiple high balls against the Wallabies on the 1st of November, Tom Wright didn’t catch a single attacking bomb against the Boks at Ellis Park, and, for the All Blacks XV, 6ft3 Chay Fihaki couldn’t deal with the England A aerials. Whether you're a tall high ball-expert or a scrumcapped Bok midget, the results will most likely be the same: you're going to drop more balls than you're going to catch.
100% on the money. Listening to Irish/Aussie/English specific podcasts and they are ALL bemoaning that their team can't deal with high ball effectively. It’s not just us. As you point out Steward bombed multiple chances in the Aussie game. I caught an interviewe by the BBC rugby podcast with him and he pointed to the escort rule having a big impact on him. He said the coaching staff are emphasising the positioning of other players around the point of the catch to pick up on the scraps, go for a turnover or kick it again to a backfield out of alignment.
With the way game is going (if in doubt - boxkick it), I think this area is getting to be one of the core elements of the game on par with scrum/breakdown etc.
We had this to a lesser degree in 2009 with the ELVs which prompted teams to want to play without the ball. Henry/Hansen realised this after the 2009 disaster and started picking fullbacks on the wing or players with decent highball skills like Dagg, Jane or Kahui.
It is a positive that they are working on it - see Jordie moving to the back to deal with the odd one but it will be tested to the nth degree with the England gameplan.
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ALB is on the bench because he can cover 12 and 13 with wing at a pinch. He had that over Ioane. Should consider himself lucky.
LF going to the wing and Proctor coming in to 13 also tells you a lot about how they now feel about Sevu Reece.
@Landers92 said in England Vs All Blacks:
ALB is on the bench because he can cover 12 and 13 with wing at a pinch. He had that over Ioane. Should consider himself lucky.
LF going to the wing and Proctor coming in to 13 also tells you a lot about how they now feel about Sevu Reece.
Anybody could cover wing as well as Lienert-Brown and if there's (for the third time this year) an early injury to one of the wings, Jordan will probably make the shift with McKenzie at fullback. It's covering second-five and no other reason Lienert-Brown is on the bench. If the game's close and there aren't any injuries, he'll get Cortez Ratima game time. I doubt we'll see him again after this year unless there are numerous injuries. He, Ioane and Reece will be having their farewell match against Wales.
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@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Landers92 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@MN5 yes, still a pinch. Just passing on the reasoning.
Yeah but they have three guys who can cover 12 in Tupea, LF and Ardie. I'd prefer Ioane there to cover centre and wing with that added dynamism that ALB lacks.
Sititi covers 13 as well , best distributor in open space in the team
@kiwiinmelb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Landers92 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@MN5 yes, still a pinch. Just passing on the reasoning.
Yeah but they have three guys who can cover 12 in Tupea, LF and Ardie. I'd prefer Ioane there to cover centre and wing with that added dynamism that ALB lacks.
Sititi covers 13 as well , best distributor in open space in the team
I thought that was De Groot
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ALB is on the bench because he can cover 12 and 13 with wing at a pinch. He had that over Ioane. Should consider himself lucky.
LF going to the wing and Proctor coming in to 13 also tells you a lot about how they now feel about Sevu Reece.
@Landers92 said in England Vs All Blacks:
ALB is on the bench because he can cover 12
So can Proctor and Leicester.
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@kiwiinmelb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Landers92 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@MN5 yes, still a pinch. Just passing on the reasoning.
Yeah but they have three guys who can cover 12 in Tupea, LF and Ardie. I'd prefer Ioane there to cover centre and wing with that added dynamism that ALB lacks.
Sititi covers 13 as well , best distributor in open space in the team
You certainly wouldn't see Rassie wasting a spot with the likes of ALB.
@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@kiwiinmelb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Landers92 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@MN5 yes, still a pinch. Just passing on the reasoning.
Yeah but they have three guys who can cover 12 in Tupea, LF and Ardie. I'd prefer Ioane there to cover centre and wing with that added dynamism that ALB lacks.
Sititi covers 13 as well , best distributor in open space in the team
You certainly wouldn't see Rassie wasting a spot with the likes of ALB.
Absolute truth.
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@Mauss said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Chris-B said in England Vs All Blacks:
It would be interesting to do a detailed season-wide analysis of catching high balls to verify who is best (and worst). Not just a raw score of catches and drops - but, looking at catches in traffic and outcomes compared with expected outcomes - some sort of rational scoring system and commentary.
Unfortunately, it would probably require "someone" to watch all the games again. Maybe he (or she!) can do it next year!
That sounds like an awful lot of work for whoever you’re referring to.
Anyways, speaking of unpaid labour and the exploitation of the working class, this whole high ball-discussion reminds me of a recent Gary’s Economics-video where he’s talking about the rising housing prices. He makes the point that everyone thinks their specific city has a housing crisis while, in reality, it’s a global issue, necessitated by the growing inequality between the ultrarich and the working poor. [Just in case I happened to have piqued someone’s interest, this is the video I’m referring to: youtube.co/watch?v=BTlUyS-T-_4]
I think a similar misconception is at work in the high ball-discussion. The reality is that it’s not just the All Blacks who are experiencing a high ball-crisis. All teams are currently struggling with defensive kick receipts: Welsh fans are about ready to lynch Blair Murray, Freddie Steward shelled multiple high balls against the Wallabies on the 1st of November, Tom Wright didn’t catch a single attacking bomb against the Boks at Ellis Park, and, for the All Blacks XV, 6ft3 Chay Fihaki couldn’t deal with the England A aerials. Whether you're a tall high ball-expert or a scrumcapped Bok midget, the results will most likely be the same: you're going to drop more balls than you're going to catch.
100% on the money. Listening to Irish/Aussie/English specific podcasts and they are ALL bemoaning that their team can't deal with high ball effectively. It’s not just us. As you point out Steward bombed multiple chances in the Aussie game. I caught an interviewe by the BBC rugby podcast with him and he pointed to the escort rule having a big impact on him. He said the coaching staff are emphasising the positioning of other players around the point of the catch to pick up on the scraps, go for a turnover or kick it again to a backfield out of alignment.
With the way game is going (if in doubt - boxkick it), I think this area is getting to be one of the core elements of the game on par with scrum/breakdown etc.
We had this to a lesser degree in 2009 with the ELVs which prompted teams to want to play without the ball. Henry/Hansen realised this after the 2009 disaster and started picking fullbacks on the wing or players with decent highball skills like Dagg, Jane or Kahui.
It is a positive that they are working on it - see Jordie moving to the back to deal with the odd one but it will be tested to the nth degree with the England gameplan.
@JA said in England Vs All Blacks:
With the way game is going (if in doubt - boxkick it), I think this area is getting to be one of the core elements of the game on par with scrum/breakdown etc.
That’s funny that you say this because I’ve started thinking about the kick-chase as the back equivalent of the lineout. Like the lineout, you have guys who are excellent on their own ball and then you have those who excel in defensive disruption.
It’s actually quite rare – again, like the lineout – that you have players who truly excel in both attacking and defensive facets of the ‘set piece’, because the dynamics, game sense and skillset are so distinct from each other.
I also think coaches are increasingly approaching it as a form of set piece, because a lot of strike moves have incorporated the box kick as a starting premise for the strike, similar to a lineout attack.
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The issue for me with ALB ,you can hardly say he’s played his way into a starting XV not to mention his ability to pick up a card ..An average selection imo based on recent form can recall him being outplayed by Faletoi Peni during the Bunnings NPC
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Well I am pumped for this one, we win this and the grand slam is all but ours - that's no mean feat. And I am finally excited about our bench again, I am fine with Parker starting and grinding them down for 50 minutes to allow us to unleash a fresh and in form Wallace for the last 30 minutes. I think that's a very good 1 - 2 punch.
I don't really know what to expect from England, other than I expect them to be seriously determined to get the W after so many close defeats to us in the last few years. What I am hoping is they come out all guns blazing, we weather the storm, and then we finish all over them with our bench forwards wrecking havoc against tired legs.
A big point of interest is how SBarrett goes. His work in the tight is going to be crucial to weathering that initial storm. I really hope he finds form again, he has shown glimpses, and he does so much work for us in that space that it allows our ball running loosies to have a much bigger impact on the match.
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Just win. They are pricks to lose to!
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@kiwiinmelb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Landers92 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@MN5 yes, still a pinch. Just passing on the reasoning.
Yeah but they have three guys who can cover 12 in Tupea, LF and Ardie. I'd prefer Ioane there to cover centre and wing with that added dynamism that ALB lacks.
Sititi covers 13 as well , best distributor in open space in the team
You certainly wouldn't see Rassie wasting a spot with the likes of ALB.
@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@kiwiinmelb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@MN5 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Landers92 said in England Vs All Blacks:
@MN5 yes, still a pinch. Just passing on the reasoning.
Yeah but they have three guys who can cover 12 in Tupea, LF and Ardie. I'd prefer Ioane there to cover centre and wing with that added dynamism that ALB lacks.
Sititi covers 13 as well , best distributor in open space in the team
You certainly wouldn't see Rassie wasting a spot with the likes of ALB.
Rassie did select Edwill Van Der Merwe though, who many knew has defensive flaws and was exposed by the Wallabies at Ellis Park….
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Well I am pumped for this one, we win this and the grand slam is all but ours - that's no mean feat. And I am finally excited about our bench again, I am fine with Parker starting and grinding them down for 50 minutes to allow us to unleash a fresh and in form Wallace for the last 30 minutes. I think that's a very good 1 - 2 punch.
I don't really know what to expect from England, other than I expect them to be seriously determined to get the W after so many close defeats to us in the last few years. What I am hoping is they come out all guns blazing, we weather the storm, and then we finish all over them with our bench forwards wrecking havoc against tired legs.
A big point of interest is how SBarrett goes. His work in the tight is going to be crucial to weathering that initial storm. I really hope he finds form again, he has shown glimpses, and he does so much work for us in that space that it allows our ball running loosies to have a much bigger impact on the match.
@No-Quarter I just hope Scooter gets through the game uninjured.
Predictions for the match
- ABs by 9 with penalty kicks being a key part of the game
- two YCs (one each team)
- Lakai to top the tackle count
- Breakdown to be a mess (this Italian ref is as much a lottery as our Georgian friend)
- Will Jordan, QT and Codie Taylor with tries
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@brodean said in England Vs All Blacks:
@restofit said in England Vs All Blacks:
@DaGrubster said in England Vs All Blacks:
CLW, Josh Beehre and Caleb Tangitau added to the squad as training cover.
Finau and Jacobsen are heading home
Clarke, Jordan, Tangitau - the back 3 for 2027 World Cup?
It sounds exciting but I honestly don't see us winning an RWC with Jordan at 15.
We need someone at fullback with a better aerial game, a better boot, and a better play making ability.
- Clarke
- Leicester
- Tupea
- Jordan
- Jordie
@Jet said in England Vs All Blacks:
@brodean said in England Vs All Blacks:
@restofit said in England Vs All Blacks:
@DaGrubster said in England Vs All Blacks:
CLW, Josh Beehre and Caleb Tangitau added to the squad as training cover.
Finau and Jacobsen are heading home
Clarke, Jordan, Tangitau - the back 3 for 2027 World Cup?
It sounds exciting but I honestly don't see us winning an RWC with Jordan at 15.
We need someone at fullback with a better aerial game, a better boot, and a better play making ability.
- Clarke
- Leicester
- Tupea
- Jordan
- Jordie
Agree with R Ioane and DMac on the bench.
This weekend All Black supporters should be sweating on the fact J Barrett is out and the massive hole this leaves defensively at the back and the weakness it opens up under the high ball. This is not really occurring because it is the status quo for the All Blacks and we are always vulnerable at the back now so why bother continually talking about it.
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@game_film said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Bovidae Leinster must be wishing they’d signed Proctor instead.
Why? He's hasn't been a star performer for the ABs this season and has less name brand recognition than Ioane.
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The oddest feeling about seeing this team is that even when I'm not happy with a team I'm confident we're going to win. I looked at this, which isn't much different than a lot our teams this year (when I've been confident we're going to win) and I instantly thought we're gonna lose this one. Hopefully my pessimism is hugely misplaced.
Lee Germon Barrett is due a big game, hopefully this is it.
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@Chris-B said in England Vs All Blacks:
It would be interesting to do a detailed season-wide analysis of catching high balls to verify who is best (and worst). Not just a raw score of catches and drops - but, looking at catches in traffic and outcomes compared with expected outcomes - some sort of rational scoring system and commentary.
Unfortunately, it would probably require "someone" to watch all the games again. Maybe he (or she!) can do it next year!
That sounds like an awful lot of work for whoever you’re referring to.
Anyways, speaking of unpaid labour and the exploitation of the working class, this whole high ball-discussion reminds me of a recent Gary’s Economics-video where he’s talking about the rising housing prices. He makes the point that everyone thinks their specific city has a housing crisis while, in reality, it’s a global issue, necessitated by the growing inequality between the ultrarich and the working poor. [Just in case I happened to have piqued someone’s interest, this is the video I’m referring to: youtube.co/watch?v=BTlUyS-T-_4]
I think a similar misconception is at work in the high ball-discussion. The reality is that it’s not just the All Blacks who are experiencing a high ball-crisis. All teams are currently struggling with defensive kick receipts: Welsh fans are about ready to lynch Blair Murray, Freddie Steward shelled multiple high balls against the Wallabies on the 1st of November, Tom Wright didn’t catch a single attacking bomb against the Boks at Ellis Park, and, for the All Blacks XV, 6ft3 Chay Fihaki couldn’t deal with the England A aerials. Whether you're a tall high ball-expert or a scrumcapped Bok midget, the results will most likely be the same: you're going to drop more balls than you're going to catch.
Right now, if your halfback has a solid kicking game, chances are you’re going to be handsomely rewarded for going to the boot. Quietly, box-kicking 9s have been making a clear comeback: Nic White was crucial for the Wallaby success against both the Lions and the Boks, Reinach’s contestable kicking has been instrumental in the post-Eden Park Bok resurgence, and someone like Ben Spencer, the 33-year old Bath halfback, has suddenly become an important piece within the English attacking puzzle.
Galthié has already been criticized for quite a few selection errors against the Springboks but arguably his biggest one was selecting Le Garrec ahead of Maxime Lucu. Le Garrec’s kicks were consistently too deep at the Stade de France which gave the Boks backfield breathing space. Whenever the kicks were on the money, there was little that Kolbe, Willemse and Arendse could do against the French chasers.
Anyway, all of this to say that this isn’t something uniquely pertinent to the All Blacks alone. But where the ABs have been lacking, I think, is in those moments right before and after high balls. What the ABs need to do, more than anything else, is work on their defensive retreat and make sure that any spilt ball from the high ball is cleaned up.
This will be especially critical against England. The English chasers have very little interest in actually catching the ball: they will aim to flood the receipt space with their band of chasing wingers/flankers, making sure that the AB back 3 can’t catch cleanly. After that, they can either (1) attack the space behind themselves (see Pollock try against Wallabies) or (2) release the ball to a backline that is already expertly aligned by George Ford and ready to pounce.
So in my view, while the catch is obviously important, it’s only the first step. What is as crucial, if not more, is the collective coordination both before and immediately after the catch. The AB backline will need to match the speed of English realignment and get off the line, making sure that England don’t have the clean width of the field to attack in these kinds of situations.
@Mauss Entirely on the money in my view, as well - though, I watch a lot less of non AB tests, so can't really speak authoritatively about that trend - but, from what I've seen the high ball creates chaos - and teams have got to work out how - on balance - to be beneficiaries rather than victims of the chaos.
I think the Boks have a headstart because they've probably got the strongest scrum in world rugby. It was disturbing to me to see how badly they took our scrum apart - I haven't seen anyone else manage that, but I was also surprised how well the Scots stood up last weekend.
But, back to the Boks - their scrum gives a significant advantage where any ball is knocked on. And I think it encourages their contesters to be more disruptive - as compared to our guys who still very much look like they're mainly trying to catch the ball - which looks cool when it comes off, but might be a lower percentage option. But, also I suspect we're more inclined than most to use the ball in hand in offensive areas - rather than box kick - and on defense we're often kicking for touch rather than to contest.
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Another chance to be a broken record about our idiotic media
"The 25 year old's return sees Wallace Sititi demoted to the bench"
Sititi has NOT been demoted. Repeat, NOT demoted, he has been put on the bench because he is an absolute fucking weapon for us at the back end of the game. You know, the part of the game where matches are won and lost? If he had been DEMOTED as this absurd article suggests, we wouldn't be fucking trusting him with winning us the game at the end would we!!
Jesus H Christ when will these idiots learn that modern rugby is a 23 man game?!?
