Red Cards & HIA

W32

@W32 said in Red Cards & HIA:

@Nepia said in Red Cards & HIA:

@W32 said in Red Cards & HIA:

@No-Quarter said in Red Cards & HIA:

@Smuts said in Red Cards & HIA:

Seems a bit rough but acceptable if it leads refs to start policing tacklers who lead with one shoulder and wrap with the other arm and also stamping down on other similar illegal techniques like grass cutters. But as it didn’t, even in the same game after Lood’s red, I won’t hold my breath.

Oh nice it seems you guys are finally starting to understand why us AB fans are so disillusioned with how incredibly inconsistently this stuff is being applied. Will you accept that Cane and Kolisi should have been both red or both yellow? Or not quite there yet.

Maybe. I’m more inclined to think there is a north south bias with world rugby.
Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get you.

Well essentially you guys are the north now ....

I look forward to the armbands this weekend.

I love me a good armband

They're as South African as biltong and ~~rac~~ Nelson Mandela.

Do I need to whip out a few hobbit references my precious?

Nepia

@W32 said in Red Cards & HIA:

@Nepia said in Red Cards & HIA:

@W32 said in Red Cards & HIA:

@Nepia said in Red Cards & HIA:

@W32 said in Red Cards & HIA:

@No-Quarter said in Red Cards & HIA:

@Smuts said in Red Cards & HIA:

Seems a bit rough but acceptable if it leads refs to start policing tacklers who lead with one shoulder and wrap with the other arm and also stamping down on other similar illegal techniques like grass cutters. But as it didn’t, even in the same game after Lood’s red, I won’t hold my breath.

Oh nice it seems you guys are finally starting to understand why us AB fans are so disillusioned with how incredibly inconsistently this stuff is being applied. Will you accept that Cane and Kolisi should have been both red or both yellow? Or not quite there yet.

Maybe. I’m more inclined to think there is a north south bias with world rugby.
Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get you.

Well essentially you guys are the north now ....

I look forward to the armbands this weekend.

I love me a good armband

They're as South African as biltong and ~~rac~~ Nelson Mandela.

Do I need to whip out a few hobbit references my precious?

I don't like LOTR so fire away.

Smuts

@No-Quarter was never illusioned - reffing consistency is as likely as the ball always bouncing your way or the wind always blowing into the opposition’s teeth.

especially in an area as difficult and important as head contact.

And I can see how a disciplinary panel dealing with a hulking, bearded Afrikaaner coached by Rassie was let’s just say … likely … to be made an example rather than given the benefit of the very substantial doubt that exists in this instance (and in all seriousness I fucking love that. At least while we continue to fuck up all comers.)

So I guess the short answer to your question is no, you remain lucky the officials gave you something to take the sting out of losing to us I another final. Saved your coaches and players making up another preposterous story.

Smuts

@Nepia said in Red Cards & HIA:

@W32 said in Red Cards & HIA:

@Nepia said in Red Cards & HIA:

@W32 said in Red Cards & HIA:

@No-Quarter said in Red Cards & HIA:

@Smuts said in Red Cards & HIA:

Seems a bit rough but acceptable if it leads refs to start policing tacklers who lead with one shoulder and wrap with the other arm and also stamping down on other similar illegal techniques like grass cutters. But as it didn’t, even in the same game after Lood’s red, I won’t hold my breath.

Oh nice it seems you guys are finally starting to understand why us AB fans are so disillusioned with how incredibly inconsistently this stuff is being applied. Will you accept that Cane and Kolisi should have been both red or both yellow? Or not quite there yet.

Maybe. I’m more inclined to think there is a north south bias with world rugby.
Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get you.

Well essentially you guys are the north now ....

I look forward to the armbands this weekend.

I love me a good armband

They're as South African as biltong and ~~rac~~ Nelson Mandela.

Don’t forget pacts and biased refs.

W32

Owen Doyle says those from “down south” should shut up and acknowledge the north’s superiority in the world of rugby refereeing and insight into the game.
This guy must be related to Matt Williams or attend the same self aggrandizing school.

https://www.planetrugby.com/news/ex-ref-boss-calls-for-leadership-from-world-rugby-after-brutally-dangerous-lood-de-jager-cheap-shot

Of course if you’re from Ireland then this doesn’t apply. Irish players are not filth like those from down south

https://www.planetrugby.com/news/ex-irish-ref-boss-slams-clearly-incorrect-tadhg-beirne-red-card-exposes-wider-world-rugby-problem

Dodge

I find the paranoia of many of the fans from the South frankly irritating, I can't understand why people can't (or won't) see the difference between those two incidents, or indeed why the two in the world cup final were different, and believe me, in that game i did not want SA to win.

I found the apathy towards head shots before the last world cup from SH teams, coaches, pundits, commentators and fans alarming, and predicted a car crash at the world cup as a result. England have been on the end of these decisions for ages, whilst loads don't agree they should be red under the spirit of the game, I'm not aware of anyone complaining its bias (but then I hang out on SH website, not a NH one so maybe my window is skewed)

I find the objection to last week's red genuinely bizarre, its a tucked arm shoulder hit to the head, yes he was dropping, maybe we should change the process to allow mitigation for that, but its not mitgatable today and in my view probably shouldn't be.

W32

@Dodge said in Red Cards & HIA:

I find the paranoia of many of the fans from the South frankly irritating, I can't understand why people can't (or won't) see the difference between those two incidents, or indeed why the two in the world cup final were different, and believe me, in that game i did not want SA to win.

I found the apathy towards head shots before the last world cup from SH teams, coaches, pundits, commentators and fans alarming, and predicted a car crash at the world cup as a result. England have been on the end of these decisions for ages, whilst loads don't agree they should be red under the spirit of the game, I'm not aware of anyone complaining its bias (but then I hang out on SH website, not a NH one so maybe my window is skewed)

I find the objection to last week's red genuinely bizarre, its a tucked arm shoulder hit to the head, yes he was dropping, maybe we should change the process to allow mitigation for that, but its not mitgatable today and in my view probably shouldn't be.

It’s the inconsistency and amateurish way in which the disciplinary process is applied that causes the paranoia.
For instance, the recent alleged ball grabbing where the judiciary relied on one players word over the other without any evidence of wrongdoing by the SA player. In the real world that case would have been thrown out. Instead we have people on the panel deciding intent for themselves.

It reminds me of the Amanda Knox case. The Italian prosecutor decided that she was guilty based on his perception of American women. He knew better.

That is fkn irritating.

taniwharugby

@Dodge I am concerned with the headshots and the survival of the game I love, but I also hate cards as a result of accidental head contact.

Granted, last week was an extreme example, accidental, absolutely, dangerous, very, but I feel there has to be a better way to deal with these than making it an unbalanced contest.

I am all for punishing thuggish plays, but again, ruining the contest because of 1.players moment of stupidity?

When Jamie Heaslip kneed McCaw many years ago, he absolutely deserved to walk, but should his whole team and paying fans also be punished?

Should that be punished the same way as Cane or Loods accidental contact?

Then, on the flipside, in the red cards the past 2 weeks, neither of the attacking players involved, were sent for HIA...as I have said before, if a contact is deemed worthy of being dangerous enough to issue a card, it should also be enough to warrant ensuring the players safety.

No Quarter

@taniwharugby hammer and nail mate, there has to be a better way to crack down on the head knocks. That's such a good example comparing genuine thuggish behaviour of Heaslip to what are really accidental head shots that are a bit reckless. Both punished the same way, and more often than not ruin the game as a contest which sucks for the paying fans.

The reckless angle doesn't really wash for me either, because the nature of the game requires you to be a bit reckless if you want to put a good hit in.

I don't know the best answer but right now it's killing the sport. If it were up to me I'd probably make cards a maximum of 10 minutes, and if it's a red then it just means that player can't come back onto the field. Then I'd dish out the punishment to players, particularly repeat offenders, with fines, lengthy bans and even permanent bans if they continue to put other players at risk. I probably haven't thought through that enough, but right now it's just super subjective and ruled inconsistently.

mohikamo

@taniwharugby said in Red Cards & HIA:

I am all for punishing thuggish plays, but again, ruining the contest because of 1.players moment of stupidity?

I hate contests being affected by red cards (last two RWC Finals, and two of the biggest match ups this year Ire v NZ, and SA x Fr)..

I would like more leniency on the actual field; with much more harshness at the review panel after the game.
Rub players out for weeks; even out of the game if necessary.

An NFL player got suspended for one game recently (they don't get paid when suspended, so cost him about $1 mil.)
It was for a series of "hip drop tackles." None of the incidents were picked up during the games.
But he got a series of warning letters from the review panel.
When he failed to adjust his technique, suspension followed.
One million dollars thanks.
And if he doesn't change; it'll be another million dollars.
Then the mother/wife/gf get involved, and we know how that works.

nzzp

@mohikamo said in Red Cards & HIA:

Then the mother/wife/gf get involved, and we know how that works.

having the mum on call from the bunker would be classic. Go to the naughty chair, mum's in your ear for 10 minutes. Offending would drop drastically!

mohikamo

@nzzp

If you are dropping a million dollars every time you get suspended, the females in your life will be getting involved.

Nepia

@Dodge said in Red Cards & HIA:

I find the paranoia of many of the fans from the South frankly irritating, I can't understand why people can't (or won't) see the difference between those two incidents, or indeed why the two in the world cup final were different, and believe me, in that game i did not want SA to win.

I found the apathy towards head shots before the last world cup from SH teams, coaches, pundits, commentators and fans alarming, and predicted a car crash at the world cup as a result. England have been on the end of these decisions for ages, whilst loads don't agree they should be red under the spirit of the game, I'm not aware of anyone complaining its bias (but then I hang out on SH website, not a NH one so maybe my window is skewed)

I find the objection to last week's red genuinely bizarre, its a tucked arm shoulder hit to the head, yes he was dropping, maybe we should change the process to allow mitigation for that, but its not mitgatable today and in my view probably shouldn't be.

I find this post as irritating. No one said the two incidents were exactly the same, but even you admitted earlier in the thread that before the RWC Kolisi's would have been a red card.

As I noted earlier Kolisi came from distance, led with his head, and hit another player in the fucking head.

The fact he also hit the player on the shoulder as well and that's a reason for mitigation seems to suggest the exact apathy to head shots that you're complaining about.

Mr Fish

This post is deleted!

W32

@Mr-Fish love to know what you said mate. PM me if you want

Dodge

@Nepia said in Red Cards & HIA:

@Dodge said in Red Cards & HIA:

I find the paranoia of many of the fans from the South frankly irritating, I can't understand why people can't (or won't) see the difference between those two incidents, or indeed why the two in the world cup final were different, and believe me, in that game i did not want SA to win.

I found the apathy towards head shots before the last world cup from SH teams, coaches, pundits, commentators and fans alarming, and predicted a car crash at the world cup as a result. England have been on the end of these decisions for ages, whilst loads don't agree they should be red under the spirit of the game, I'm not aware of anyone complaining its bias (but then I hang out on SH website, not a NH one so maybe my window is skewed)

I find the objection to last week's red genuinely bizarre, its a tucked arm shoulder hit to the head, yes he was dropping, maybe we should change the process to allow mitigation for that, but its not mitgatable today and in my view probably shouldn't be.

I find this post as irritating. No one said the two incidents were exactly the same, but even you admitted earlier in the thread that before the RWC Kolisi's would have been a red card.

As I noted earlier Kolisi came from distance, led with his head, and hit another player in the fucking head.

The fact he also hit the player on the shoulder as well and that's a reason for mitigation seems to suggest the exact apathy to head shots that you're complaining about.

you're confusing two things IMO, should Kolisi's have been red under the interpretations of the laws at that time, no. Would it have been red had it happened in February that year - yes, probably. Why did that change? Because the SH was not applying the laws the same way all season and fans and pundits etc bitched and moaned when they came across the World Rugby interpretations, so the authorities softened the interpretation through the World Cup. At the point of the world cup final, those two interpretations were correct IMO.

As for where we should actually draw lines, I don't pretend to have a perfect answer, I don't like head shots and believe we should try to remove them from the game as much as possible, you do that by incentivising players not to do it, therefore punishing the player and the team as a result - that means coaches train differently. I am sure i've seen stats about the average height that the Boks hit vs other teams as Rassie focussed on this earlier than most.

I believe you have to have nuance in punishments, rugby is dynamic, a player bent at the waist and trying to make a legal tackle who makes head contact with a dropping player is not the same as tucking an arm and launching a shoulder like a missile at someone and making contact with the head and should be punished differently. That means subjectivity comes into it. I don't like either extreme version of removing subjectivity - all red or all yellow as I don't believe its fair on the accidental one or enough of a disincentive on the nasty one.

MiketheSnow

From the Italy v SA match

My comments on YouTube

"You're a skilled analyst. But thorough? Surely there was another angle of this incident which would have shown whether there was direct head contact or secondary contact?

You can and should do better if this is your main argument.

If there are no other angles, say as much.

Second incident is 'clear as day'. Penalty to SA.

Third incident, if it was consistent then Italian should have seen red too."

W32

The TMO and FPRO for the Italy SA game are French. Hard not to think there was a bit of frenchyness going on there.
Rugby is a professional game run by amateurs, bit of a joke really..
Having said that, there will always be controversy in sport, Still loving it though!

canefan

@W32 it is amateurish that is for sure

pakman

The Silver Fern

Red Cards & HIA