All Blacks 2025
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@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:
Weird how Lio Willie was not in serious contention for selection after Wellington.
Must have one of the highest win percentages in NZ rugby this season when on the pitch, 25 wins from 29 matches plus a win for the A team in Bath.
Doubt a good player is starting so many games and ending up on the winning team by coincidence.
Another journeyman tbh. Looked average against France C.
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Honestly..the Barretts have done some of the most damage in rugby history to the All Blacks legacy.
It's quite astounding. Wolf in sheep's clothing etc..
Beauden looked like one of the most amazing players we had ever seen in 2016/17.
And then the rot begins, purely because of Beaudens freakish year the Barrett Family hype and public psychosis begins. Jordie is introduced..and is talented but somehow thrust into a Lions deciding 3rd test having no international experience. Very much a decision made from Hansen's ego, like a long shot that he can take credit for, not thinking of the risks involved, but he was desperate to have the 'brothers' standing next to each other in the anthems, 'no way it's never been done!!'.
Since then, our attack has primarily been centered around Beauden/Jordie orchestrating EVERYTHING. This coincides with 5-7 years of some of the worst attacking rugby we have ever produced.
Beauden is a complete fraud as a 10, wouldn't actually make an NPC team if you covered him head to toe and judged him purely on playing ability as opposed to his name and brand.
Jordie is a more complex case, he's actually a great player in many ways..but as an orchestrator of an attack, is actually extremely poor. Both him and his brother have horrible passing games.
It was quite depressing to see the contrast with how easily and quickly Tupaea was able to get the ball to our outsides in this game with his passing game.
And then Scott's captaincy...let alone the fact that he isn't in the top 3 locks in the squad yet is GUARANTEED a start because he was made captain.
But the suits and marketing team at NZRU seem desperate to have a trio of brothers in the team,
..'can you believe they're all brothers btw!! Isn't that crazy?! 3 brothers in the same team? They must have a telepathic sense of what each is thinking no doubt..'
'Yeap, it should be illegal for any team to have multiple Barretts! ROFL'
The day we don't have a single Barrett in the team is when we have finally started to heal from one of our worst ever eras.
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@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:
Weird how Lio Willie was not in serious contention for selection after Wellington.
Must have one of the highest win percentages in NZ rugby this season when on the pitch, 25 wins from 29 matches plus a win for the A team in Bath.
Doubt a good player is starting so many games and ending up on the winning team by coincidence.
Was the best forward in the 2nd best NPC team, was one of the best, if not the best, forward in the super rugby winning team. Comprehensively out played his chiefs counter parts in the super rugby final. Definitely deserved more game time
Thats my assessment. I must've watched 20+ of his games for Crusaders and Otago and never saw him turn in a bad performance this season. Just a good solid worker and a winner.
Not sure how he falls so far down the pecking order.
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@akan004 said in All Blacks 2025:
@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:
Weird how Lio Willie was not in serious contention for selection after Wellington.
Must have one of the highest win percentages in NZ rugby this season when on the pitch, 25 wins from 29 matches plus a win for the A team in Bath.
Doubt a good player is starting so many games and ending up on the winning team by coincidence.
Another journeyman tbh. Looked average against France C.
No worse than any of the other loose forwards that get picked every week.
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@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:
Weird how Lio Willie was not in serious contention for selection after Wellington.
Must have one of the highest win percentages in NZ rugby this season when on the pitch, 25 wins from 29 matches plus a win for the A team in Bath.
Doubt a good player is starting so many games and ending up on the winning team by coincidence.
Was the best forward in the 2nd best NPC team, was one of the best, if not the best, forward in the super rugby winning team. Comprehensively out played his chiefs counter parts in the super rugby final. Definitely deserved more game time
Generally agree but would say Flanders was the best 8 in the NPC.
Would have had CLW over Kirifi but ultimately think he is too small to be a world class test player.
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@kpkanz just need to go back 1 test from Lions #3 to see where the rot started, our play, the reffing and card issues started there IMO.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@kpkanz just need to go back 1 test from Lions #3 to see where the rot started, our play, the reffing and card issues started there IMO.
The card issue is systemic because of the way Super Rugby is reffed compared to test rugby. It impacts the Wallabies too for the same reason.
Robertson and the Crusaders had their cynical play rewarded with titles and then some get a pikachu face when guys like Taylor and Scott Barrett get game impacting cards.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@kpkanz just need to go back 1 test from Lions #3 to see where the rot started, our play, the reffing and card issues started there IMO.
The first test in Auckland we smoked the Lions - attacked the connection between the ruck pillars and wider defenders. Lots of hard angled runs that stressed the rush defence big time.
Even after SBW got his card, we got robbed by a shit penalty at the end (jumping to catch a pass).
We are weak. If we were serious we'd be jumping to catch passes every game, all game until the laws got changed. We should not be whinging, we should be exploiting laws until they get changed.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2025:
we do have a forward pack that can compete with anyone
Except England and Sth Africa - and poss. Argentina.
What's worrying is Ryan has done a great job with the tight 5, players selected by Foster have been developed and new talent like Holland brought into the team - yet they still go to shit for extended periods regularly.
There's something very wrong with the headspace/culture of this team - and it isn't getting any better
Razor's specialty. Apparently.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2025:
@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2025:
@nonpartizan said in All Blacks 2025:
Weird how Lio Willie was not in serious contention for selection after Wellington.
Must have one of the highest win percentages in NZ rugby this season when on the pitch, 25 wins from 29 matches plus a win for the A team in Bath.
Doubt a good player is starting so many games and ending up on the winning team by coincidence.
Was the best forward in the 2nd best NPC team, was one of the best, if not the best, forward in the super rugby winning team. Comprehensively out played his chiefs counter parts in the super rugby final. Definitely deserved more game time
Generally agree but would say Flanders was the best 8 in the NPC.
Would have had him over Kirifi but ultimately think he is too small to be a world class test player.
You think Flanders is too small? He's bigger than our current loose forwards aside from Parker. He's too big for our current coaches.
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@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2025:
And then Scott's captaincy...let alone the fact that he isn't in the top 3 locks in the squad yet is GUARANTEED a start because he was made captain.
While it is a top quality rant I feel compelled to mention that for awhile there, maybe 1 or 2 years ago, Scott really was one of the top 3 locks in the country.
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@Tim said in All Blacks 2025:
Parker, Finau, Jacobson, Sititi - all complete failures this year from the Chiefs. Same players responsible for their team having a record loss in the 2024 SR final, a loss in the 2025 quarter final, and didn't fire a shot in 2025 final.
Picking all four of them was insane. To make matters worse, the retard coach picked Vaai at 6 too. No imagination, let alone intelligence or analytical ability.
Good lord, what a shit group of players.
I feel sorry for Jacobson, he's a good player but he's such a foodbill that they should have moved on from him. He should go to Japan while he still can.
His injury, and the non-selection of Papalii, mean that the other three are all going to be playing as part of a group that don't have the same balance that they get at the Chiefs.
It seems clear to me that most Super sides have better balance in their loosies than the ABs, and that certainly for the Blues, Chiefs and Saders, they have a clear identity about how they are trying to play that aligns with the player talent.
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@gt12 not to mention at super they play these players in ways that utlise thier skillset, whereas at Int we seem to be going through the motions, not enough weights, not enough speedwork, not enough smarts, struggle street.
SA are where we used to be, we would find ways to win ins spite of the hand we were dealt (mostly) now, we are finding ways to lose when we get ourselves in position to win (mostly)
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@gt12 not to mention at super they play these players in ways that utlise thier skillset, whereas at Int we seem to be going through the motions, not enough weights, not enough speedwork, not enough smarts, struggle street.
SA are where we used to be, we would find ways to win ins spite of the hand we were dealt (mostly) now, we are finding ways to lose when we get ourselves in position to win (mostly)
That comes back to identity > strategy > tactics in alignment.
The comment was made above that our attack looks too structured and as you said, it looks like the players are going through the motions.
From the outside, that indicates that we have a problem in the first two of those three ideas above, and then we see problems with game tactics - I think that is why we don't see Dmac at 10. I think last year when he looked OK, we were playing like the chiefs in the best and worst ways, and I'm not sure that those were the directions he was meant to be paying under. His stupidity in 10 minutes or so against Australia when he blew a try I think was the final nail in the coffin, but that's only supposition.
All in all, my guess is that the players either don't agree with the identity > strategy of the team, or don't understand it.
And that raises a good question, because in a forum os rugby geeks, can anyone clearly summarize, what is this team's identity?
The Blues have a clear identity based around ball running around the ruck, which suits their loosies and tighties.
The Chiefs are a fast-ball side that uses powerful runners off 10, which might be one reason why these 6s look much better at the level below because that is miles away from how they are being used at the ABs.
To me, the Saders are the most like this team - but I'm not quite sure how I would describe them in comparison to others - they wear you down. They are patient, relying on set piece and territory. Their basic attack is based around getting to the outside, going side to side until they find their opportunity, which they'll exploit. If that doesn't work, they'll kick it away and back their defense.
So, for me, the second question is whether the factors which make the Saders better at Super rugby translate across to International rugby? That seems to be where Razor is stuck - getting the players to play like that, and whether or not that is a successful formula.
Two different questions, in my mind.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2025:
You think Flanders is too small? He's bigger than our current loose forwards aside from Parker. He's too big for our current coaches.
It's confusingly written but I thought they were referring to Lio Willie.
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(broken record) The most dominant loose trio we have had at Super level in the last 5 years is Akira Ioane, Dalton Papali'i and Hoskins Sotutu, and it's not even close. Not one of those players have had a look in due to this weird fucking anti-Blues bias that these idiot Crusaders coaches have. Then we wonder why our loosies get smacked around every test. These morons made their bed, they can lie in it now. A loss to Wales is needed so we can move these clowns on and try and install professional coaches that don't act like fucking children when selecting their teams.
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Problems persist everywhere, and i believe the thing that damns this coaching group is their nailed-on selections are huge problems.
Jordan is not a fullbacks asshole. All our best fullbacks have been at their best when they can bring other players in to the game. Mils was a genius at linking up with his wingers. Ben Smith made constant smart decisions creating for others. Jordan can't pass for shit, has no vision outside is admittedly freakish ability go be where needed. Doesn't exactly kick well either. Should go back to the wing, and a real fullback found.
Wingers? We are churning through them, none are setting the world on fire. But in their defense, do we do anything to create them opportunities to shine? The structure also appears to have them glued to touchlines waiting for the ball rather than turning up in unexpected areas to create mismatches.
The midfield continues to be a mess. Proctor has been given the whole year and has done nothing with it. Jordie is nailed in to the 12 shirt, and appears to run our attack, which is an issue because he has a terrible passing game. In fact all his highlights this year are admittedly amazing scramble defense plays. QT looks good but is prone to a terrible defensive read. Calls for Leicester to come in to the midfield, but if is going to carry the ball like that looking for offloads no thank you. Again, these guys are victims of an attacking structure that does not appear to be set up to make the most of them.
The issues at 10 have been done to death. Another Barrett is nailed in to the jersey despite a complete inability to kick well, pass well, engage defenders, run the team, or even defend well (a lowlight reel of bad Barrett covering tackle attempts in conceded tries would be funny to watch).
Halfback, Roigard has become our best player despite being ponderous getting the ball out. Has to kick because the 10 and 15 can't do it for shit. At least takes the game on.
The loose forwards do my head in. Led by the enigmatic, "close to best player in the world" Ardie Savea who flat out refuses to do the required shit work, and can not put a shot on to save his life. Lakai tries his guts out but is shoehorned in to a role he is ill-suited to. The 6 jersey continues to be empty. Sititi is far too much like Savea and Lakai. They are a weird mix of great athletes who are not a menace to other teams ball, aren't big enough to dominate collisions on either side of the ball, and do not generate quick ball for us. The traditional strength of NZ rugby has become our weakness.
Lock is fucking good except the guy with the worst form of all of them (and if we are real for a minute, even at his peak Scott had a limited ceiling) is the fucking captain and has to play.
Props? Our scrum has been no more than ok all year. They can't carry for shit. And for some fucking reason, we are using them as ball players?? Personnel are there i think, but the use?
Cody T has had yet another great year, Sami T has not, but he gets fuck all rugby and yet we expect him to just come on and carve on 10-15 minutes a fortnight??Not only are the selections fucked, but what we do on the field is fucking terrible as well. Look at how England defended on the weekend, sprinting forward off the line, hard accurate tackling. We sit on our fucking heels and make soaking tackles. And even then we miss them. England went through us and around us with relative ease on the weekend. They are not alone this year. Even in the tests they lost, Australia made us look stupid on several occassions.
With the ball we play meaningless phase after meaningless phase. There is no intent in the carry. Slow ball, static ball carriers, out the back pass, wide pass. All eaten up by line speed and an easy drift. Then we kick it away, generally too deep because we are not accurate. We kick an enormous amount of ball away with no real intent other than getting as far from our try line as possible.The final damning thing for this coaching group is, I could have written this post 12 months ago. We are not growing, we are not fixing problems. Yes selections are changing, mainly through injury, and on the fringes (oh we'll change the winger and a blindside). The core problems are locked in.
Fuck these guys
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Razor apologists, if any still remain, will point at the win-loss column and say "well we can't win them all" and ignore the fact that France C pushed us in the middle of the year, and a full strength France would have beaten us.
The South Africa loss was actually a belting at home.
The Eden Park Bledisloe relied on Australia making a couple of monumental errors and Roigard being the best player on the park. The 2nd Bledisloe Aus were all over us and one momentum killing penalty that rubbed out a try changed that whole game. And Australia are shit.
England dominated us on Saturday, we gave up 25 straight points FFS. And the ABs quit, the vision of the complete lack of desperation on that last try was damning. That's the 2nd time this year that there is clear evidence that heads have dropped so far the boys have given up. Damning.If we are serious, heads should roll. Players, coaches, the lot. Someone make a hard fucking call FFS.
