All Blacks 2025
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@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
That is disgusting revisionism
Care to elaborate? I was as critical of Fozzie as anyone. And he made lots of mistakes in selection and in gameplan. Things didn't seem to improve until Ryan and Schmidt joined him. But Razor's record probably isn't much better, and some of our play has been as bad. So I'm curious to hear your argument
I’m just not sure how Foster can inherit a team he’d already been coaching for 7 years. The RWC final team only had 4 (I think) players that had debuted post 2019 RWC. He didn’t have to do any work to develop players and he was still shit. Razor on the other hand has to develop a 2nd row, entire backrow, two halfbacks, a 10, a centre pairing, and a back three. Foster had his squad handed to him on a platter and only needed to tweak a few small elements
Foster was a poor AB coach. Nobody was surprised though as he was a poor Chiefs head coach too. Pretty good assistant though.
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@stodders said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
That is disgusting revisionism
Care to elaborate? I was as critical of Fozzie as anyone. And he made lots of mistakes in selection and in gameplan. Things didn't seem to improve until Ryan and Schmidt joined him. But Razor's record probably isn't much better, and some of our play has been as bad. So I'm curious to hear your argument
I’m just not sure how Foster can inherit a team he’d already been coaching for 7 years. The RWC final team only had 4 (I think) players that had debuted post 2019 RWC. He didn’t have to do any work to develop players and he was still shit. Razor on the other hand has to develop a 2nd row, entire backrow, two halfbacks, a 10, a centre pairing, and a back three. Foster had his squad handed to him on a platter and only needed to tweak a few small elements
Foster was a poor AB coach. Nobody was surprised though as he was a poor Chiefs head coach too. Pretty good assistant though.
Dave Rennie came in and instantly turned Foster's Chiefs shitshow around, whereas Robertson has completely failed to do that for Foster's AB shitshow.
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@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@stodders said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
That is disgusting revisionism
Care to elaborate? I was as critical of Fozzie as anyone. And he made lots of mistakes in selection and in gameplan. Things didn't seem to improve until Ryan and Schmidt joined him. But Razor's record probably isn't much better, and some of our play has been as bad. So I'm curious to hear your argument
I’m just not sure how Foster can inherit a team he’d already been coaching for 7 years. The RWC final team only had 4 (I think) players that had debuted post 2019 RWC. He didn’t have to do any work to develop players and he was still shit. Razor on the other hand has to develop a 2nd row, entire backrow, two halfbacks, a 10, a centre pairing, and a back three. Foster had his squad handed to him on a platter and only needed to tweak a few small elements
Foster was a poor AB coach. Nobody was surprised though as he was a poor Chiefs head coach too. Pretty good assistant though.
Dave Rennie came in and instantly turned Foster's Chiefs shitshow around, whereas Robertson has completely failed to do that for Foster's AB shitshow.
Unlike Foster, Robertson doesn’t have : Retallick, Coles, Whitelock, Smith. Foster’s handover to Robertson was like the Fergie handover to Moyes at United
Robertson has not helped himself with poor leadership and coaching as well as poor selections at times (injury has been his best selector at times), but the AB squad has changed far more under him than Foster.
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@stodders said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@stodders said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
That is disgusting revisionism
Care to elaborate? I was as critical of Fozzie as anyone. And he made lots of mistakes in selection and in gameplan. Things didn't seem to improve until Ryan and Schmidt joined him. But Razor's record probably isn't much better, and some of our play has been as bad. So I'm curious to hear your argument
I’m just not sure how Foster can inherit a team he’d already been coaching for 7 years. The RWC final team only had 4 (I think) players that had debuted post 2019 RWC. He didn’t have to do any work to develop players and he was still shit. Razor on the other hand has to develop a 2nd row, entire backrow, two halfbacks, a 10, a centre pairing, and a back three. Foster had his squad handed to him on a platter and only needed to tweak a few small elements
Foster was a poor AB coach. Nobody was surprised though as he was a poor Chiefs head coach too. Pretty good assistant though.
Dave Rennie came in and instantly turned Foster's Chiefs shitshow around, whereas Robertson has completely failed to do that for Foster's AB shitshow.
Unlike Foster, Robertson doesn’t have : Retallick, Coles, Whitelock, Smith. Foster’s handover to Robertson was like the Fergie handover to Moyes at United
Robertson has not helped himself with poor leadership and coaching as well as poor selections at times (injury has been his best selector at times), but the AB squad has changed far more under him than Foster.
Not really sure what your point is.
Rennie brought in a lot of new players.
Foster had Read and B Smith go, and Retallick on sabbatical.
Robertson's problems have really not been at lock, hooker, halfback. -
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@stodders said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
That is disgusting revisionism
Care to elaborate? I was as critical of Fozzie as anyone. And he made lots of mistakes in selection and in gameplan. Things didn't seem to improve until Ryan and Schmidt joined him. But Razor's record probably isn't much better, and some of our play has been as bad. So I'm curious to hear your argument
I’m just not sure how Foster can inherit a team he’d already been coaching for 7 years. The RWC final team only had 4 (I think) players that had debuted post 2019 RWC. He didn’t have to do any work to develop players and he was still shit. Razor on the other hand has to develop a 2nd row, entire backrow, two halfbacks, a 10, a centre pairing, and a back three. Foster had his squad handed to him on a platter and only needed to tweak a few small elements
Foster was a poor AB coach. Nobody was surprised though as he was a poor Chiefs head coach too. Pretty good assistant though.
Dave Rennie came in and instantly turned Foster's Chiefs shitshow around, whereas Robertson has completely failed to do that for Foster's AB shitshow.
The same year that the contracting model completely changed for Super Rugby.
Not comparing apples with apples at all.
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@stodders said in All Blacks 2025:
Part of the reason why Rassie is so admired is that he put in place the systems that have elevated SA to the heights they are now at. He poured over the structural issues in Bok rugby as the General Manager: High Performance teams in 2012, before leaving for Munster and returning as the Director of rugby and Bok coach.
He had a forensic understanding of the talent that was available and also the bottlenecks that were stopping them from reaching their potential. He also oversaw a major revamp of the coaching structures and pathways. His legacy is so much more than just the Boks and WC triumphs and will likely last for a while after he calls it a day.
Henry did this for the ABs in 2004. He implemented the player led approach and massively changed the way that super rugby coaches worked together to develop players for the benefit of the ABs and developed the playing style the ABs were famed for (combining tough forward play with smarts and players who could solves issues as they unfolded with mental strength).
Do NZ have someone like Henry now? Wayne Smith is a creative, out of the box thinker - he isn’t the systems/process guy NZ needs. He works best in the right structure.
Where can we find details of what he actually did and changed that you talk about?
There is no doubt he has been transformative for SA rugby and the springboks.He is clearly one of the great coaches but i do think he is now overly priased as being instrumental with all good things that happen in Sa rugby. Hence the question. And i will look up brendon Nel.
When you talk about structures, sa have great structures in place for a long time and i think the biggest reason for their success is the quota system which caused so much pain for them for a long time.
Harnessing the black population for rugby is huge for them. Rassie clearly has played a big part of thst and he has that jurgen Klopp ability to connect with players and supporters.
I had hope razor could be our Rassie but evidence so far suggests he is far from that.
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@Mr-Fish said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@stodders said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
That is disgusting revisionism
Care to elaborate? I was as critical of Fozzie as anyone. And he made lots of mistakes in selection and in gameplan. Things didn't seem to improve until Ryan and Schmidt joined him. But Razor's record probably isn't much better, and some of our play has been as bad. So I'm curious to hear your argument
I’m just not sure how Foster can inherit a team he’d already been coaching for 7 years. The RWC final team only had 4 (I think) players that had debuted post 2019 RWC. He didn’t have to do any work to develop players and he was still shit. Razor on the other hand has to develop a 2nd row, entire backrow, two halfbacks, a 10, a centre pairing, and a back three. Foster had his squad handed to him on a platter and only needed to tweak a few small elements
Foster was a poor AB coach. Nobody was surprised though as he was a poor Chiefs head coach too. Pretty good assistant though.
Dave Rennie came in and instantly turned Foster's Chiefs shitshow around, whereas Robertson has completely failed to do that for Foster's AB shitshow.
The same year that the contracting model completely changed for Super Rugby.
Not comparing apples with apples at all.
How so?
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@hikastags said in All Blacks 2025:
This is from 2024... but what a ridiculously large management team
It does feel it but I think you will find it is not dissimilair to other national sides.
Pure specualition on my part:
NZR maximises the ABs for commercial opportunities and you do wonder whether this may have gone too far and impacting the rugby side of the All Blacks.
Perhaps they are being overlaoded with media, social media , sponsor commitments, and being pulled into lots of different directions that is detrimental?
Pure speculation of course. But im looking for reasons why the ABs are looking very un all blacks like.
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@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
I’m just not sure how Foster can inherit a team he’d already been coaching for 7 years.
Fair enough but
Razor on the other hand has to develop a 2nd row
He had Scott (2016!) and Vaa'i (2020) and Pat (2014!!)
entire backrow
more like get rid of the entire Blues backrow
two halfbacks
He inherited Cam and Christie (the latter Foster preferred at the 2023 RWC Final but am I still bitter, me?)
a 10
inherited BB (2012) and DMac (2016)? And resurrected with a passport, Richie M (2017)?
a centre pairing
recycled QT (2021) and LF (2022) oh and get rid of any Blues players
and a back three.
Reece (2019) and Clarke (2020) and Jordan (2020) were new, really?
Foster had his squad handed to him on a platter and only needed to tweak a few small elements
There I agree, but Foster did have a hand in composing the original platter.
Thanks for the above, I hadn't realized many of the above have been ABs for so long.
Maybe that is also part of the problem! -
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@hikastags said in All Blacks 2025:
This is from 2024... but what a ridiculously large management team
It does feel it but I think you will find it is not dissimilair to other national sides.
Pure specualition on my part:
NZR maximises the ABs for commercial opportunities and you do wonder whether this may have gone too far and impacting the rugby side of the All Blacks.
Perhaps they are being overlaoded with media, social media , sponsor commitments, and being pulled into lots of different directions that is detrimental?
Pure speculation of course. But im looking for reasons why the ABs are looking very un all blacks like.
Yeah you're probably right. I've heard that the French had about 15 analysts for the 23 RWC.
And completely agree on the commercial and media part. We look like clowns.
Does anyone actually watch this Together We Walk / Behind the Fern YouTube nonsense?
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@nostrildamus said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
I’m just not sure how Foster can inherit a team he’d already been coaching for 7 years.
Fair enough but
Razor on the other hand has to develop a 2nd row
He had Scott (2016!) and Vaa'i (2020) and Pat (2014!!)
entire backrow
more like get rid of the entire Blues backrow
two halfbacks
He inherited Cam and Christie (the latter Foster preferred at the 2023 RWC Final but am I still bitter, me?)
a 10
inherited BB (2012) and DMac (2016)? And resurrected with a passport, Richie M (2017)?
a centre pairing
recycled QT (2021) and LF (2022) oh and get rid of any Blues players
and a back three.
Reece (2019) and Clarke (2020) and Jordan (2020) were new, really?
Foster had his squad handed to him on a platter and only needed to tweak a few small elements
There I agree, but Foster did have a hand in composing the original platter.
Thanks for the above, I hadn't realized many of the above have been ABs for so long.
Maybe that is also part of the problem!It’s definitely part of the problem.
I’m not sure how to format the responses to specific parts of the post but, and without wanting to be too argumentative:Second row: Va’ai can hardly be called a Foster project. I think he had less than 10 caps by end of 23. An aging PT is nothing but a bench option
Backrow: Akira Ioane was never the answer. Sotutu was also binned by Foster and co. Dalton yes I’ll give you that.
Halfback: Cam had what, 2 caps by the end of RWC? Shoehorning Roigard into the 23 RWC squad then not using him is hardly inheriting a player. Inheriting Christie is not a positive
10: yes two tens that can’t play 10. I’d take the argument if one of them was an international quality 10.
Back three: A past it winger in Reece, Clarke who was so out of form he wasn’t in the RWC team, and a 15 that can’t play 15?
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@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Mr-Fish said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@stodders said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
That is disgusting revisionism
Care to elaborate? I was as critical of Fozzie as anyone. And he made lots of mistakes in selection and in gameplan. Things didn't seem to improve until Ryan and Schmidt joined him. But Razor's record probably isn't much better, and some of our play has been as bad. So I'm curious to hear your argument
I’m just not sure how Foster can inherit a team he’d already been coaching for 7 years. The RWC final team only had 4 (I think) players that had debuted post 2019 RWC. He didn’t have to do any work to develop players and he was still shit. Razor on the other hand has to develop a 2nd row, entire backrow, two halfbacks, a 10, a centre pairing, and a back three. Foster had his squad handed to him on a platter and only needed to tweak a few small elements
Foster was a poor AB coach. Nobody was surprised though as he was a poor Chiefs head coach too. Pretty good assistant though.
Dave Rennie came in and instantly turned Foster's Chiefs shitshow around, whereas Robertson has completely failed to do that for Foster's AB shitshow.
The same year that the contracting model completely changed for Super Rugby.
Not comparing apples with apples at all.
How so?
Switched from selecting from within your region to having carte blanche to contract from anywhere.
Around half the squad in 2012 came from provinces outside the Chiefs region (including 10 who featured in the final). In 2011 (and prior), Foster could largely only select from within the region (draft players excepted, who were largely players left out by other franchises).
Completely different landscape.
I'm not suggesting Foster's a better coach than Rennie, but he did a very good job with the Chiefs over a number of years. There's good reason why he was kept on for so long.
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@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@stodders said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
That is disgusting revisionism
Care to elaborate? I was as critical of Fozzie as anyone. And he made lots of mistakes in selection and in gameplan. Things didn't seem to improve until Ryan and Schmidt joined him. But Razor's record probably isn't much better, and some of our play has been as bad. So I'm curious to hear your argument
I’m just not sure how Foster can inherit a team he’d already been coaching for 7 years. The RWC final team only had 4 (I think) players that had debuted post 2019 RWC. He didn’t have to do any work to develop players and he was still shit. Razor on the other hand has to develop a 2nd row, entire backrow, two halfbacks, a 10, a centre pairing, and a back three. Foster had his squad handed to him on a platter and only needed to tweak a few small elements
Foster was a poor AB coach. Nobody was surprised though as he was a poor Chiefs head coach too. Pretty good assistant though.
Dave Rennie came in and instantly turned Foster's Chiefs shitshow around, whereas Robertson has completely failed to do that for Foster's AB shitshow.
He also had Wayne Smith in the camp
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@Mr-Fish said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Mr-Fish said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@stodders said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
That is disgusting revisionism
Care to elaborate? I was as critical of Fozzie as anyone. And he made lots of mistakes in selection and in gameplan. Things didn't seem to improve until Ryan and Schmidt joined him. But Razor's record probably isn't much better, and some of our play has been as bad. So I'm curious to hear your argument
I’m just not sure how Foster can inherit a team he’d already been coaching for 7 years. The RWC final team only had 4 (I think) players that had debuted post 2019 RWC. He didn’t have to do any work to develop players and he was still shit. Razor on the other hand has to develop a 2nd row, entire backrow, two halfbacks, a 10, a centre pairing, and a back three. Foster had his squad handed to him on a platter and only needed to tweak a few small elements
Foster was a poor AB coach. Nobody was surprised though as he was a poor Chiefs head coach too. Pretty good assistant though.
Dave Rennie came in and instantly turned Foster's Chiefs shitshow around, whereas Robertson has completely failed to do that for Foster's AB shitshow.
The same year that the contracting model completely changed for Super Rugby.
Not comparing apples with apples at all.
How so?
Switched from selecting from within your region to having carte blanche to contract from anywhere.
Around half the squad in 2012 came from provinces outside the Chiefs region (including 10 who featured in the final). In 2011 (and prior), Foster could largely only select from within the region (draft players excepted, who were largely players left out by other franchises).
Completely different landscape.
I'm not suggesting Foster's a better coach than Rennie, but he did a very good job with the Chiefs over a number of years. There's good reason why he was kept on for so long.
Different landscape, but the guys Rennie was competing with were playing by the same rules as he was, and he beat them all. And he did not have a team stacked with ABs by any means, there were a whole lot of young guys and journeymen playing above themselves.
Foster at the Chiefs: losing semifinalist 4th, 6th, 7th, 7th, 7th, losing finalist 2nd, 10th, 10th. Playoffs 2 years out of 8 and a 50% win ratio according to wikipedia. They played patches of very attractive rugby, but were not very good, a frustrating team to follow. If there was a good reason for keeping him on so long, it wasn't apparent in the results. -
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
Razor on the other hand has to develop a 2nd row, entire backrow, two halfbacks, a 10, a centre pairing, and a back three.
The only players unavailable to Robertson from the RWC Final XV (the one we lost by one point with 14 men) when he took over were Aaron Smith, Mo'unga and Retallick. 14 of that game's 23 are in the current EOYT squad.
The idea that Robertson inherited some sort of poisoned chalice and was forced to completely rebuild a team is hogwash.
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@Victor-Meldrew Whitelock?
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@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Mr-Fish said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@Mr-Fish said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@stodders said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
That is disgusting revisionism
Care to elaborate? I was as critical of Fozzie as anyone. And he made lots of mistakes in selection and in gameplan. Things didn't seem to improve until Ryan and Schmidt joined him. But Razor's record probably isn't much better, and some of our play has been as bad. So I'm curious to hear your argument
I’m just not sure how Foster can inherit a team he’d already been coaching for 7 years. The RWC final team only had 4 (I think) players that had debuted post 2019 RWC. He didn’t have to do any work to develop players and he was still shit. Razor on the other hand has to develop a 2nd row, entire backrow, two halfbacks, a 10, a centre pairing, and a back three. Foster had his squad handed to him on a platter and only needed to tweak a few small elements
Foster was a poor AB coach. Nobody was surprised though as he was a poor Chiefs head coach too. Pretty good assistant though.
Dave Rennie came in and instantly turned Foster's Chiefs shitshow around, whereas Robertson has completely failed to do that for Foster's AB shitshow.
The same year that the contracting model completely changed for Super Rugby.
Not comparing apples with apples at all.
How so?
Switched from selecting from within your region to having carte blanche to contract from anywhere.
Around half the squad in 2012 came from provinces outside the Chiefs region (including 10 who featured in the final). In 2011 (and prior), Foster could largely only select from within the region (draft players excepted, who were largely players left out by other franchises).
Completely different landscape.
I'm not suggesting Foster's a better coach than Rennie, but he did a very good job with the Chiefs over a number of years. There's good reason why he was kept on for so long.
Different landscape, but the guys Rennie was competing with were playing by the same rules as he was, and he beat them all. And he did not have a team stacked with ABs by any means, there were a whole lot of young guys and journeymen playing above themselves.
Foster at the Chiefs: losing semifinalist 4th, 6th, 7th, 7th, 7th, losing finalist 2nd, 10th, 10th. Playoffs 2 years out of 8 and a 50% win ratio according to wikipedia. They played patches of very attractive rugby, but were not very good, a frustrating team to follow. If there was a good reason for keeping him on so long, it wasn't apparent in the results.That's exactly right - went from an unfair landscape to a fair landscape.
Rennie had access to relatively better players, more on par with the rest of the competition (especially Blues, Hurricanes and Crusaders). Even if Rennie weren't a better coach than Foster (which I believe he is), you would expect him to do better given the comparatively stronger team he was able to assemble.
Keeping Foster at the Chiefs was not hugely dissimilar to why Townsend is still coaching Scotland now. Are Scotland ever going to be better than they currently are? Probably not. But that's a product of the players they have, regardless of who's coaching them. The best crop of talent from within Scottish borders is never going to compete with the best teams around the world. Same sitch for Foster in Super. Occasionally they might outperform, but that should never be the expectation.
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@stodders said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@jimmyb said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
@reprobate said in England Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in England Vs All Blacks:
Still nothing compared to the media firestorm Fozzie had to face
I think that's largely because Foster took over a good team, whereas Razor took over a bit of a shit show. It's deterioration vs going nowhere.
Cue someone saying 'oh we should have won the WC final with 14 men but for the ref'... yeah nah bullshit, we were crap and the good performances were the outliers.I'd argue that the team Fozzie inherited were already on the way down as demonstrated by our 2019 loss. I think Fozz got a lot of shit because there was fatigue for the outgoing coaching group by that time, and he didn't seem like he had the credentials for the HC gig
That is disgusting revisionism
Care to elaborate? I was as critical of Fozzie as anyone. And he made lots of mistakes in selection and in gameplan. Things didn't seem to improve until Ryan and Schmidt joined him. But Razor's record probably isn't much better, and some of our play has been as bad. So I'm curious to hear your argument
I’m just not sure how Foster can inherit a team he’d already been coaching for 7 years. The RWC final team only had 4 (I think) players that had debuted post 2019 RWC. He didn’t have to do any work to develop players and he was still shit. Razor on the other hand has to develop a 2nd row, entire backrow, two halfbacks, a 10, a centre pairing, and a back three. Foster had his squad handed to him on a platter and only needed to tweak a few small elements
Foster was a poor AB coach. Nobody was surprised though as he was a poor Chiefs head coach too. Pretty good assistant though.
If being a good AB coach can be predicted by success at Super Rugby level, explain Scott Robertson?
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@jimmyb said in England v All Blacks:
Backrow: Akira Ioane was never the answer.
He was against Australia, Man of the Match. Perth, September 2021.
And he was for the Blues. -
@canefan said in England v All Blacks:
Dave Rennie came in and instantly turned Foster's Chiefs shitshow around, whereas Robertson has completely failed to do that for Foster's AB shitshow.
He also had Wayne Smith in the camp
Isn't Wayne Smith still part of the AB coaching club at least part-time or is it a Naked Gun type of cameo?
