FFS get a grip
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@pakman said in FFS get a grip:
@mariner4life said in FFS get a grip:
@pakman said in FFS get a grip:
When we get behind (as all teams do occasionally) we just need to work through our processes and let our superiority count. NO NEED FOR MIRACLE PLAYS.
of all this sort of weird rant, this is the bit that stands out as being the issue.
our "processes" are actually the problem and contributing enormously to why we are failing. The process, on either side of the ball, seem to be adding pressure to ourselves rather than the opposition.
What, exactly, is this superiority you think we just need fall back on? Our powerful forwards? Superior kicking accuracy? Fast, creative backs? what exactly is it you see that i don't?That’s a very broad question. But in general phase play ABs are very good at finding and exploiting space, and historically very efficient at finishing opportunities.
im not sure if youre watching replays from several years ago or what
for the last several years we've hugely struggled to get the ball into space, largely due to some slow passing from previous 9's and current 10's....a rushing defence shuts us down quick...unless you mean the kick passes that come off 1/4 times?
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@pakman said in FFS get a grip:
I think we can both agree that 2025 edition is well below historical levels at this.
so what the fuck are you actually talking about then?
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@mariner4life said in FFS get a grip:
@pakman said in FFS get a grip:
@mariner4life said in FFS get a grip:
@pakman said in FFS get a grip:
@mariner4life the scoreboard on Saturday is an indictment. With competent substitution we’d have been 17-5 or more up at halftime. Mind you I don’t place that much store on that because English were pants.
what do you mean by this?
When your 10 can neither kick for touch nor take shots at goal competent substitution would be to replace him with someone who can.
the problem is playing him at all. He's the very definition of washed. which goes back to the issues that everyone is talking about and you seem to be ignoring.
He may be washed but hes always been best as impact player because he doesn't have the ability to focus for more than 40 or 50 minutes. One of Razor's mistakes last year was seeing BB make an impact off the bench and then thinking that will translate to 80 minutes of quality play.
Through his career hes often played well for periods before deteriorating into random brain farts.
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Two of Englands tries in the weekend came from individual defensive lapses from Carter and Tupaea. I like Tupaea but its not the first time this year hes done that.
Overall Carter is no better than Reece.
I disagree that we've got the right selection mix. The current 23 are not the best 23 we can field injuries excluded.
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@mariner4life said in FFS get a grip:
@pakman said in FFS get a grip:
I think we can both agree that 2025 edition is well below historical levels at this.
so what the fuck are you actually talking about then?
It’s a question of degree. The 2025 version is still better than almost all of the other top teams at creating and exploiting space.
The problem is when we turn the dial up to 11.
That’s how Poms scored last try and why the Boks in Wellington ran in so many tries in the last 15.
Your men Barrett and Savea very prominent in that.
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ok, we fundamentally disagree on where this team is, I'll leave it there
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@pakman said in FFS get a grip:
@mariner4life said in FFS get a grip:
@pakman said in FFS get a grip:
I think we can both agree that 2025 edition is well below historical levels at this.
so what the fuck are you actually talking about then?
It’s a question of degree. The 2025 version is still better than almost all of the other top teams at creating and exploiting space.
i have no idea how to reconcile this what what i actually see each week, i would say our wings have been STARVED of time and space for years....years since our wings would regularly get more than 5-10m of space to get up head of steam, IF the ball makes to the the wing they are almost immediately looking at contact
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@pakman said in FFS get a grip:
@mariner4life said in FFS get a grip:
@pakman said in FFS get a grip:
I think we can both agree that 2025 edition is well below historical levels at this.
so what the fuck are you actually talking about then?
It’s a question of degree. The 2025 version is still better than almost all of the other top teams at creating and exploiting space.
Hard disagree. South Africa, Australia, Argentina, France, probably Scotland and quite possibly England too are better at this right now. Given our history, it is a horrible weakness at present.
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There were two tests this year where I thought our pattern in attack was very good and created space the way it should be - forward pods sucking in defenders on multiple phases and then using a secondary playmaker to play with with. However even when the forwards had done their part the play of Beaudie didn’t see us take advantage of the opportunities.
lots of other disjointed stuff and skill errors (we’ve seen that movie before in years past) where processes have broken down. And for me that has been a real problem, when things break down we haven’t reacted well enough or been disciplined to not give away a penalty or easy metres.
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@Kirwan yeah daft playing BB at all, let alone struggling with an injury.
Sadly for BB, many of our issues can fall at his feet, now if these are on him or on game plans/structure or whatever, we may never know, but such a to see a player we used to love watching play, go through the motions.
Surely he doesnt want his legacy (hate that as I expectnthere aren't too many that think that much about it) to be remembered for his greatness in the 12-16 period before he fell off a.cliff?
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@pakman said in FFS get a grip:
ABs were ahead at HT in 10 of 12 tests this year.**
The clear inference is that the starting selection is the best in World Rugby.
When the All Blacks were better, opposition teams would come out fired up, often scoring points early and leading at half time. Those teams, inferior to the All Blacks would fade, unable to sustain the effort and accuracy, the All Blacks would weather the storm and eventually begin to dominate and come out on top as clearly the better team.
What you're describing is the reverse. Maybe it's not that the All Blacks have the best first half team in world rugby. Maybe they're the team coming out fired up to perform but aren’t all that good and it takes the opposition some time to overcome their early efforts.
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@mariner4life said in FFS get a grip:
@pakman said in FFS get a grip:
@mariner4life said in FFS get a grip:
@pakman said in FFS get a grip:
@mariner4life the scoreboard on Saturday is an indictment. With competent substitution we’d have been 17-5 or more up at halftime. Mind you I don’t place that much store on that because English were pants.
what do you mean by this?
When your 10 can neither kick for touch nor take shots at goal competent substitution would be to replace him with someone who can.
the problem is playing him at all. He's the very definition of washed. which goes back to the issues that everyone is talking about and you seem to be ignoring.
I remember saying on here a few years back that I didn't think BB was a great 10 in that he didn't really do the core duties of a 10 that well. For sure you'd want him in the team because he was such freak athlete and I could see why they picked him at 10 as you want to have the ball in his hands as many times as possible. However, now, he is not the freak athlete that he was and those core deficiencies are coming back to haunt him.
IMO.
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@reprobate said in FFS get a grip:
@pakman said in FFS get a grip:
@mariner4life said in FFS get a grip:
@pakman said in FFS get a grip:
I think we can both agree that 2025 edition is well below historical levels at this.
so what the fuck are you actually talking about then?
It’s a question of degree. The 2025 version is still better than almost all of the other top teams at creating and exploiting space.
Hard disagree. South Africa, Australia, Argentina, France, probably Scotland and quite possibly England too are better at this right now. Given our history, it is a horrible weakness at present.
I suggest you rewatch the first 30 of the last two games.
South Africa has built their game around counter attacking off oppo mistakes, many of which result for their elite kicking game, heavily focussed on Reinach.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in FFS get a grip:
@pakman said in FFS get a grip:
ABs were ahead at HT in 10 of 12 tests this year.**
The clear inference is that the starting selection is the best in World Rugby.
When the All Blacks were better, opposition teams would come out fired up, often scoring points early and leading at half time. Those teams, inferior to the All Blacks would fade, unable to sustain the effort and accuracy, the All Blacks would weather the storm and eventually begin to dominate and come out on top as clearly the better team.
What you're describing is the reverse. Maybe it's not that the All Blacks have the best first half team in world rugby. Maybe they're the team coming out fired up to perform but aren’t all that good and it takes the opposition some time to overcome their early efforts.
Or Occam’s Razor.
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@pakman Occam’s Razor doesn’t mean scraping at the bottom of the barrel and picking the explanations you like best.
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@canefan said in FFS get a grip:
@pakman said in FFS get a grip:
The point is that second half is where the issue lies. Simply not good enough.
I get what you are saying, but I would argue the problems are far deeper than that
If we converted our leads the way Kiwi teams typically do, we wouldn't be having this debate.
I think Ferners underestimate the impact of fatigue.
Take for example Boks 2, when we went out with largely the same winning team, in 'tried and tested' manner.
But Scooter was very tired from Boks 1. He shouldn't have played more than 40, but was flogged for the full 80. Boks even rested Etzebeth, and with fresh legs starting to come on even before halftime ran away with things in last 20.
Leaving aside the Kolbe 'try' (which resulted from a 'dominant' scrum where Wessels was on his knees and unpenalised through under Gardner's nose), our determination to leave most of the starters on to the preordained 60 minute mark is a large element of why we lost all cohesion in last quarter.
Newell is one who has played too many minutes He should have come off on Saturday once we went down to 14.
For me, we need some fresh thinking and, to take a leaf out of Rassie's book, look to get the bulk of the bench on between 40 and 50 minute mark.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in FFS get a grip:
@pakman Occam’s Razor doesn’t mean scraping at the bottom of the barrel and picking the explanations you like best.
That is entirely correct.
