All Blacks 2025
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This year must be the lowest number of tries scored for decades by us, if not since professionalism?
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The fact that there is not an obvious pick for captain probably speaks volumes as to where the ABs are at - and personally I think this is separate from the coaches.
Even of coaches change, I don’t necessarily think the likes of Papalii are ‘nailed on’ starters. I think you could probably say Taylor, Holland, Savea, Roigard, J Barrett and Will Jordan are probably the only universal nailed on starters, and half the fern wouldn’t have Ardie in there, + even Holland is dubious to be called nailed on. Heck, with the emergence of Pledger is out the realms that this time next year Roigard is not a nailed on starter?
You could make Codie Taylor captain, but that feels like a sticking plaster given his age and stage.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
The fact that there is not an obvious pick for captain probably speaks volumes as to where the ABs are at - and personally I think this is separate from the coaches.
Even of coaches change, I don’t necessarily think the likes of Papalii are ‘nailed on’ starters. I think you could probably say Taylor, Holland, Savea, Roigard, J Barrett and Will Jordan are probably the only universal nailed on starters, and half the fern wouldn’t have Ardie in there, + even Holland is dubious to be called nailed on. Heck, with the emergence of Pledger is out the realms that this time next year Roigard is not a nailed on starter?
You could make Codie Taylor captain, but that feels like a sticking plaster given his age and stage.
I'd be okay with Codie. Sometimes you need a bridge, a bit like Tana being captain to help steady the ship before we took off again
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
The fact that there is not an obvious pick for captain probably speaks volumes as to where the ABs are at - and personally I think this is separate from the coaches.
Even of coaches change, I don’t necessarily think the likes of Papalii are ‘nailed on’ starters. I think you could probably say Taylor, Holland, Savea, Roigard, J Barrett and Will Jordan are probably the only universal nailed on starters, and half the fern wouldn’t have Ardie in there, + even Holland is dubious to be called nailed on. Heck, with the emergence of Pledger is out the realms that this time next year Roigard is not a nailed on starter?
You could make Codie Taylor captain, but that feels like a sticking plaster given his age and stage.
The history of AB captains is interesting in terms of how and who have been selected, and then the public reaction to it.
Post 2003 RWC was anyone thinking that Umaga would/should be captain? A new coaching regime opened the door for a change but I’m not sure he was the obvious choice. Who else was there?
But it did work out with the two year captaincy and then transition to McCaw (who had his own leadership issues in those first couple of years).I think with how Scooters body is, they can transition to someone else. In hindsight I probably would’ve made Jordie the captain if what has been written about Ardie is true regarding him not wanting it.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
The fact that there is not an obvious pick for captain probably speaks volumes as to where the ABs are at - and personally I think this is separate from the coaches.
Even of coaches change, I don’t necessarily think the likes of Papalii are ‘nailed on’ starters. I think you could probably say Taylor, Holland, Savea, Roigard, J Barrett and Will Jordan are probably the only universal nailed on starters, and half the fern wouldn’t have Ardie in there, + even Holland is dubious to be called nailed on. Heck, with the emergence of Pledger is out the realms that this time next year Roigard is not a nailed on starter?
You could make Codie Taylor captain, but that feels like a sticking plaster given his age and stage.
Nailed on for most positions is subjective. There would only be a 1 or 2 positions where people are 100% in agreement. Roigard and Taylor starting are probably the positions where people are 100% behind those players.
Even Jordan some will say fullback and some will say wing. Some will say put JB back to fullback.
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Yeah agree but those four might be about it as nailed on starters agreed by everyone.
My nailed on starters.
Taylor
Holland
Papali'i
Roigard
Jordan
Clarke
JBPersonally I'd move JB back to fullback. When he first moved to 12 he was bring used quite a bit for hard carrying but since that is no longer the case I would have him at the back to sure up our aerial game.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
This year must be the lowest number of tries scored for decades by us, if not since professionalism?
44 this year so far by my (probably mis) count. Per game is probably the interesting stat there as they play more games than they used to.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal that says, historically, we score 3.97 per game, oddly, 2009 it says we only had 1.97 per game, veery other year since 2000 has been >3.5.
We have scored over 3.5 since 1995, oddly, 1994 it says we averaged 1 try per game.
Assuming you are right at 44, we have played 13 games which is 3.4 per game, so only slightly down, but lowest since 2009, 2nd lowest since 1994.
Assuming I am reading that correctly, we concede on average, 14.7 per game, now that is been blown away in recent years (19.29 LY, 15.25 / 2023, 23.38 / 2022, 18.2 / 2021, 12.83 / 2020
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@ShaquilleOatmeal that says, historically, we score 3.97 per game, oddly, 2009 it says we only had 1.97 per game, veery other year since 2000 has been >3.5.
We have scored over 3.5 since 1995, oddly, 1994 it says we averaged 1 try per game.
Assuming you are right at 44, we have played 13 games which is 3.4 per game, so only slightly down, but lowest since 2009, 2nd lowest since 1994.
Assuming I am reading that correctly, we concede on average, 14.7 per game, now that is been blown away in recent years (19.29 LY, 15.25 / 2023, 23.38 / 2022, 18.2 / 2021, 12.83 / 2020
I think I recall during the McCaw era a grand slam where the home nations didn't score a try.
I've got 45 this year so far.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
The fact that there is not an obvious pick for captain probably speaks volumes as to where the ABs are at - and personally I think this is separate from the coaches.
Even of coaches change, I don’t necessarily think the likes of Papalii are ‘nailed on’ starters. I think you could probably say Taylor, Holland, Savea, Roigard, J Barrett and Will Jordan are probably the only universal nailed on starters, and half the fern wouldn’t have Ardie in there, + even Holland is dubious to be called nailed on. Heck, with the emergence of Pledger is out the realms that this time next year Roigard is not a nailed on starter?
You could make Codie Taylor captain, but that feels like a sticking plaster given his age and stage.
No sorry, you don't get to do that, you don't get to separate the players from the coaching group. Players that have come into this environment have regressed. That's not a player issue, that's purely a coaching, selection and gameplan issue. It's almost impossible for players to look good under this current regime when none of the above is suited to test footy. We have coaches that are well and truly out of their depth and that is impacting our players form and confidence.
The only positive I take from this is that we absolutely do still have the cattle to be the worlds best, but we have to first actually select the best players, and then next we need a coach that knows what is required at test level to get the best out of them.
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@Tim said in All Blacks 2025:
All Blacks’ worst years by combined losing margin
2025: 53 (3 losses)
pretty damning right
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Be nice knowing what KPIs the defence coach is subject to.
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@antipodean clearly not defence.
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@antipodean Learnings per minute.
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well ackshewally if you really look at it our defense is great except for the very small periods around when tries are scored.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2025:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2025:
The fact that there is not an obvious pick for captain probably speaks volumes as to where the ABs are at - and personally I think this is separate from the coaches.
Even of coaches change, I don’t necessarily think the likes of Papalii are ‘nailed on’ starters. I think you could probably say Taylor, Holland, Savea, Roigard, J Barrett and Will Jordan are probably the only universal nailed on starters, and half the fern wouldn’t have Ardie in there, + even Holland is dubious to be called nailed on. Heck, with the emergence of Pledger is out the realms that this time next year Roigard is not a nailed on starter?
You could make Codie Taylor captain, but that feels like a sticking plaster given his age and stage.
No sorry, you don't get to do that, you don't get to separate the players from the coaching group. Players that have come into this environment have regressed. That's not a player issue, that's purely a coaching, selection and gameplan issue. It's almost impossible for players to look good under this current regime when none of the above is suited to test footy. We have coaches that are well and truly out of their depth and that is impacting our players form and confidence.
The only positive I take from this is that we absolutely do still have the cattle to be the worlds best, but we have to first actually select the best players, and then next we need a coach that knows what is required at test level to get the best out of them.
That's fair - but I still think a new coach comes in, and some of the issues remain. I think a new coach could improve some of these issues, but I think it needs to be made clear that if there was a change, it won't magically result in us winning 15 tests in a run.
Our win rate since Foster took over is 70%, which is not disimilar to what it was in the 1990s, when rugby was less competitive than it is now. Of course, the issue currently is not just results, it is the manner of performance, but I think it really needs to be pointed out, that a new coach shouldn't be viewed as a silver bullet.
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@brodean I don't think Dalton Papalii can be seen as a nailed on starter until he does it in black to be fair (this isn't me saying he shouldn't get the chance to do so).
An interesting tidbit I heard was that Sean Withy isn't rated by Robertson and co at all, and given Christie was dispensed with in the end too, this clearly points to them wanting a different style of 7.
Assuming Joseph was the replacement, I'd be intrigued to see the direction of travel. He clearly like Withy, and he made Papalii his captain of the XV.
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