All Blacks 2026
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@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2026:
@pukunui said in All Blacks 2026:
@ShaquilleOatmeal
It seems people have forgotten just how bad 2022 was.- First home/series loss to Ireland
- First loss to Argentina (at home)
- Well beaten by Boks in the first game
- Saved by the ref calling time wasting against the Wallabies with time almost up.
- Close calls against Japan and Scotland
- Escaping with a draw v England
All of this coming off the back of the 2021 eoyt where we got smacked by ireland and france and had to sack multiple assistant coaches.
Also worth remembering this was all with multiple AB greats still in the team and a 10 who was a much better player than 2025 BB.
2025 was shit, but I would argue 2022 was rock bottom.
It was ordinary, saved by the Boks win in Joburg, but I think we showed signs that there was light at the end of the tunnel for 2023. There were a few hairy moments after thw Joburg test, but I felt at the time that it was to be expected with the coaching team changing mid season and we did also hammer Argentina and the Wallabies in the return fixtures that year. I felt like we were a more settled XV at the end of 2022 and the coaches knew what their best lineup was going into the 2023 RWC.
Can't say I feel the same optimism going into 2026 and they still seem unsure on their best XV.
Yeah that is the key. As a pure looks at results of a calendar year relative to the strength of them team I would say 2022 was worse than 2025. But there were still some pretty legendary players there to rework into a functional team.
They almost made it even if there were some pretty shit performances and unwanted firsts in 2023 also. Eg. Getting belted by the Boks pre world cup and losing our first ever pool game.But if you look at it from a “state of the team” perspective we are probably in a worse place than 2022 given the leaders and game drivers of our team seem to be past it and/or just not good enough at leading/driving a game.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2026:
As examples of teams that were not as good as 2025:
1991
Lost in Sydney
6-3 abomination win in Akl
Awful scrape through wins v Italy, USA, Canada in RWC
Loss in SF
Awful, Awful year1994
Loss to Frogs 2-0
Draw with Bokke
Gregan/Wilson1999
Awful QF v Scotties
Loss in SF
Loss in 3v4I think the current is better than all of those.
But I think we have the players to be better than we currently are.
For me personally, I think only 1999 compares with this year due to the similar capitulation (aided by stupidity of selection) but the other two were just years when teams got the better of us.
1991 we were the clear second best team in the world even if we muddled our way through. Despite the rankings I don't think we're the second best team this year.
1994 we won a series over the Boks and lost to a classy France in the second test by the try from the end of the world. The Wallabies were still a class act in 1994, in hindsight that loss isn't as earth shattering as it felt that Wednesday night.
Even when we were losing those matches, and I was less mature at dealing with losses then, I was never as dismayed as I was in the Boks and England losses this year.
On 2022, I don't think anyone is trying to defend our performances that year so not sure if it's a great whataboutry.
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@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2026:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2026:
Perhaps ask A1 on winning number of games, which after all is the point of tests, if that's how you get your rugby knowledge mate.
I know it's old fashioned , but genuinely watching rugby has always been the way I have only ever really judged teams. And not just losses, but wins too, I have seen wins (including this year) that have looked pretty average , and losses that have been pretty good.Though I can understand that's how many get a lot their rugby (or a lot of sport) info, just ask A1, or/and watch highlights (then look at shortened stats) perhaps takes less time etc.
I got AI to do a bit of maths because it was quicker than doing it myself. Nothing to do with my rugby knowledge. I’m just trying to find out how years I wasn’t around for were as bad or worse than in recent times. Doesn’t sound like they are unless you go by the simplistic wins/losses stat which can be found very easily. And as you point out, it’s the nature of the performances that matter. Those in 2025, with senior players flat out giving up, lack of basic skills, players avoiding their core duties, are the worst I’ve seen by a long way. I’m not hearing examples from the past that compare to what we saw last year.
Fair enough mate, but take my word for it, not suggesting you wrong to do it mate, just I perhaps don't understand A1 , and haven't seen where it help me find how teams perform. I thought As I said, in my opinion some of games I attended in 80s or 90s the players were pretty average, etc.
I not sure how much you watched in 90s where the likes of Fitzy were getting roasted at first for not doing his proper core hooker roles because he was first hooker to really play game wide etc. I thought in 1998 we had a team, that were in the main fairly below average and didn't win one test, but still could see shoots of decent/good players. As I say Jonah was absolutely roasted by a lot for not have core skills of a winger etc, I couldn't beleive the number of people (members of my family too) who said he was hopeless.. The one thing I will bet, when we watch games , we often do it with a prejudice of how we think certain players should do, and perhaps close our minds to what's happening.
But to me rugby isn't about maths etc, but I haven't seen all the walking around, players giving up (though Wellington was a switch off etc) and having a lack of core skills etc. Because if they are there are certainly a lot of piss poor teams in the world that the team have beaten. I don't see this huge lac of skills compared to other teams, or AB teams .
Anyway, I won't change your mind, and you won't change mine. And even know there not a lot of rugby to watch . I will leave it at that. I will carry on enjoying watching and supporting the team etc, and you perhaps will continue to get frustrated with them.
Lol mate it could be I taking easy way out, too old to worry about things I have seen before. -
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2026:
Even when we were losing those matches, and I was less mature at dealing with losses then, I was never as dismayed as I was in the Boks and England losses this year.
This. It isn't the losses as much as the nature of the losses - almost as if the team collectively shrugs shoulders and gives up. Losing to a better side is understandable if painful, looking like a team that's given up is almost obscene.
Really hope we can concoct another turning point like Ellis Park in 2022 or, even better, - as we're digging into history - Carisbrook 1977.
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2026:
@Dan54 Dude, can we please just clarify: You do know it's AI, I for Intelligence, not A1, huh? And typing 1 instead of I is just convenience? Right?
Lol mate, just a stupid thing mate and I do sometimes, as I hate the idea that artificial intelligence, and even calling it such , where is our own intelligence? lol
Age thing I know, I a grumpy old bastard, I dislike we all to lazy to think for ourselves, we rely on machines/ bits of wire to more and more include thinking and remembering . I do it myself too, not pointing fingers at anyone else. Hell we even converse on the f***en things instead of leaning on table and discussing games after or before going to games.
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2026:
I know it's old fashioned , but genuinely watching rugby has always been the way I have only ever really judged teams. And not just losses, but wins too, I have seen wins (including this year) that have looked pretty average , and losses that have been pretty good.
How does this align with your comments earlier in the thread about the AB season being a pass mark because it was 10 wins 3 losses?
It's not so much the wins and losses in 2025 that concern me - it's the nature of the performances and taking into account who we played and when.
From my angle we mostly got by on individual performances in the wins
- Squeaked by France B in the first 3 tests - Jordie saving the bacon off the bench in test 3 comes to mind
- Argie test 1 had a nice closeout from the forwards with a number of lineout drives
- Bok test 1 was good desperation effort given the team was seriously undermanned
- Wallaby test 1 was a masterclass by Roigard at Eden Park whereas Wallaby test 2 in Perth showed real promise of Tupaea at 13 (and then he was barely sighted there again this year). Noting given the Wallaby lack of depth we caught them at a good time given they had no Tom Wright, Skelton for only 1 test, issues at 10 etc.
- Ireland test was looking dicey until DMac came on
- Scotland test started strong then nearly choked it away until DMac saved the day
- Wales are so bad currently it's hard to really get a read - conceding a lot of points wasn't great.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2026:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2026:
I know it's old fashioned , but genuinely watching rugby has always been the way I have only ever really judged teams. And not just losses, but wins too, I have seen wins (including this year) that have looked pretty average , and losses that have been pretty good.
How does this align with your comments earlier in the thread about the AB season being a pass mark because it was 10 wins 3 losses?
Not saying I right, but how does it align with thinking 10 out of 13 was a pass mark? It what I had thought would be ok (ok only) before season started . We like it or not just don't have the players to do it in NZ. I never realistically thought we would win 13, I hoped for 12/13, never thought we were good enough, our opposition poor enough.
I find having realistic expectations help me enjoy the game a lot more.Your comments on games above while good as for you just show how different some of us follow the game. That's fine mate, it's how we are.
I will continue to think it was a pass mark as a season, not great but ok.
I look how well we look with youngish players in forwards, lock we look to have some beauties in Holland, Vai'i showing he is good as we hoped, Lord coming on nicely. Loosies we got a couple of good young uns in Lakai and Sititi (still waiting to make up mind on Parker). Props we pretty well off, with a bloody good few years in them as yet.
In backs Roigard continues his climb as a top echelon 9, we could do with a good new 10, 12 we in good with JB, TT and Tupaea (though will be keen to see him a bit more at 13). 13 we not overly flush, and back 3 we not too bad.
That to me is a pass mark for a season, and a good place to start.
For 2026, I hope to see a 10 come through (looking at you Jacomb, Kemara, Rehana), a convincing back up to Roigard (even just Hotham getting through uninjured) someone crack the spot at 13, and think we should be ok.
It's got the makings of hardest season since the game went pro, we meet all the top teams in a comp, and a perhaps best ever Bok team in 4 tests away.
And I looking forward to it. I want an unbeaten season, but in no way expect it.
Ok we stuck with coaching group as it would be stupidity to dump them, wasn't a fan of how the appointment was made etc. -
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2026:
even better, - as we're digging into history - Carisbrook 1977.
Yeah, I thought Jack Gleeson brought in, what we all hope for this year, a "change of direction."
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A pass mark would be looking like we are building some direction - a pattern of play and a belief.
Along with effective leadership from Coaches and players and a pride in the jersey.
If that happens the results will follow but get the house in order first- by whatever means -
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2026:
@mohikamo said in All Blacks 2026:
@Dan54
Haha
A pass mark is all i'm hopin' for this year.Do me too for now mate, I still think we a year or 2 off being where we want/should be.
Use all the years from now until the cold death of the sun and it won't address the failures of selection and coaching.
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Comparisons to previous AB sides is interesting, but also a bit of a pointless way to critique the current coaches as it's pretty subjective what the worst AB side of all time would be.
What I do know is that it's pretty clear NZ rugby still has stacks of talent, but the ABs are playing well below the sum of their parts due to poor selection and a gameplan not suited to test footy. Two years in it's obvious that this coaching group is well out of their depth going up against much more experienced international coaches, and instead of trying to change things up, they had no answers so kept trying to do the same thing over and over and over again. That makes them bloody frustrating to support, to say the least.
It's going to be really interesting to see what NZR do after the review, as it's obvious we need someone with a lot more experience in the group, but there are no obvious candidates willing to work with Razor.
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2026:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2026:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2026:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2026:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2026:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2026:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2026:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2026:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2026:
@ShaquilleOatmeal said in All Blacks 2026:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2026:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2026:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2026:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2026:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2026:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2026:
@Yeetyaah said in All Blacks 2026:
Robert Van Rooyen circle jerk for ya
Crusaders circle jerk with Knowler there alongside him although Knowler was playing the (only) slightly more balanced role in the exchange.
Takeaways:
- Mo'unga was finally coming right after 50 tests when he took the Yen and ran.
- Everything was BB's fault.
- The assistant coaches are all good because they once made the Crusaders backline "hiss".
- Barrett is fine despite the fact he needs to play better and tidy up his discipline which has been shit all career.
- Razor doesn't have the cattle but also the team makes too many unforced errors and they'd threaten the Boks without those (so wait we do have the cattle?)
- The most important thing it the ABs are peaking in 2027 (fuck off, we're not a RWC only team).
They've done that with the ABs backline too in that they hiss while they're deflating.
You'd think these 2 fanboy 'journos' would have gotten the message that Super Rugby and Test Rigby are worlds apart by now.
Regular Show is wonderful, used to enjoy watching it with my boys.
But to address your point, Ardie Savea made quite a number of World Teams of the year so that should tell you all you need to know.
A great highlights reel player.
Has someone put together a highlights reel for him for 2025?
Has someone put together a lowlights reel of him walking on defence, refusing to hit rucks and being miles away from where he’s required? I’m only semi-joking here - it’d be interesting to see the reaction from fans who only watch highlights.
They'd just call it fake news
'He's allowed a break after carrying the team on his own for all these years'
I just don't get the Ardie hate that goes on in here. He was absolutely worn out at end of this year, but bet he be one first named in team going forward. Well he would be in my team, Hiw man problem year just gone was coaches running him into ground, and that started with Tana in super.
You also think James Parsons is a good analyst and claim to have seen much worse performing All Blacks teams.
Yep ! And your point is? Are you upset because I see things differently than you?
I also don't believe I have seen as much strength of test teams around world.Not upset at all. Just pointing out you seem to be well off the mark fairly often and are very accepting of mediocrity from the team. How exactly do you think it’s okay for an openside flanker to not bother hitting rucks? How is it okay for any player to walk on defence? How does that not place more burden on the other players? How is it okay for any player others look up to to and follow to phone it in the way Savea does?
Am I off the mark, or are you? You seem very confident you know a lot more about game than those who don't agree with you. You seemed to point out I enjoy Parson.s analilysis too? Hell I take notice of Mauss on here, I find he does work on analysing games, where as I watch them at park or on tv, and take my opinions from that. Which is ok, but very very limited.
Mate as I said it all opinions, I got mine, as I said I don't understand the hate. hey many paid pundits and coaches agree me with me obviously. Hey I not in the Will Jordan at 15 fanboi group either, but figure coaches work on having a plan for how he plays.
We had a poster/s (can't remember who) saying they couldn't see what the big deal was with Fabian Holland too. I haven't seen all this walking on defence etc, and it's actually not unusual for loosies (especially 7s) to not hit rucks, as they tend to go for steal, but often if they can't get it set up in defence, I think some loosies hit rucks because they think that's there job, but sometimes (as with Props, locks etc etc) you better to stay out of them, as Boks looked to do in Wellington at times.
Also by all means tell me where I said mediocrity is ok from All Blacks, or are you just making stuff up. I am one who argues against picking teams on what we need for WC, as I think we should try and win every game.I’ve decided to briefly respond to this by saying I’d like you to explain your options more and answer some of the questions being asked of you.
When did you see worse All Blacks teams than the 2025 lot and in which ways were they worse? I’m genuinely interested in this because I’m not old enough to remember anything earlier than the mid-90s and there are a few reasons I think the terrible 1998 run wasn’t as bad as 2025.
And what makes you say Savea performed well in 2025, other than being on the field a lot? I also find it strange you watched the Wellington loss and didn’t see the players walking around, basically not bothering.
As far as Parsons is concerned, he comes across as someone trying to come up with excuses for the All Blacks’ poor performances, scraping at the bottom of the barrel for random statistics because he’s worried about getting offside with his mates. It’s not so much that I think I know more than him. It’s that I don’t think he’s being honest.
I saw teams a number of times that I believe were pretty average, we had teams in (particurlarly late60s/early 70s, probably 90s also) that were at (like now) what I call swing points where we were perhaps struggling to produce a number pf good young players.Hell in about 94 we only won 2 out of 6 tests (and I was at one of those tests, and you could feel almost the struggle to operate, even with the likes of Jones, Zinzan etc)! Apart from perhaps 2006ish to 2017 where we were full of world class players, and among them all time greats we have at times struggled. I clearly remember early 2000s many pulling out hair and wondering how we could compete with supposedly no locks etc. Hell in 1998 we lost 5 tests, and was supposedly worst AB team ever etc.
As I said I have watched rugby a long time and while I not happy how we are going, I still say it's not worst I have seen, though I do think we will have to get a bit more used to it.
What makes me say Savea performed well this year, well hasn't been stella, and should of been rested late in year, and all I said I don't get the Ardie hate, he wasn't that bad ( I also believe he suffered from super carrying MP on his back)
On Parsons. I was at Wellington test, and was as pissed as most especially those at game, there wasn't a whole lot of walking . but to me an inexcusable mental switch off in last 15-20 minutes where most of the team seemed to struggle.
As for Parsons (like most proper pundits) he may come across to you as someone coming up for poor AB performances, and could be, could also be coming across as someone showing what they did wrong or just as importantly what other team did so well. One of reasons I enjoy his work he (and Hall) talk of what they work on in how detailed it is etc. It's a bloody complicated game at top level and the more I get it broken down the better for me. The fact teams even work on the best way to charge down box kicks from different 9s , haw big the play book that players have to learn with calls etc I get real interested when I hear any pundit who has actually played top level rugby. (to fsee this point, listen to some of those commentators that do NH club rugby, tsome are great)That a point I try to make, sometimes we will ( and have always been) get beaten by a team that is simply plays better. If we win is it only because other team plays poorly or we play well. It's all hos you chose to look at games.
I make no apologies for enjoying pundits, I a rugby nerd, am no more knowledgeable than anyone else, but love to hear from people who actually have played game at top level, as much (or maybe more) as reading and discussing the games with plebs like us.Mate just remembered, almost wish I could find the forums I read them in, beginning of 2025 there were also a number of people who assured us all that Richie McCaw was past it and should be dropped, and their opinions were valid then to, I just didn't quite understand them.
Should have won in SA as well as james dalton lost the ball over the line when scoring the winning try
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2026:
.Should have won in SA as well as james dalton lost the ball over the line when scoring the winning try
Grubs my old mate, did you never play in any of the kids/college teams I coached (I know you were gone overseas by time I did seniors)? Or ever listen to Muzz when he did you in colts. There is no should in the game, there is only what happens. Shoulds (in rugby/sport) are excuses mate, I used to try and drum into all teams I coached from day 1 (remember Muzz agreeing). You don't win or lose matches over a ref picking up or missing one thing, or a player dropping a ball etc. You take such minor things out of the equation.
Like 2007 French loss in QF, we were beaten . Test against SA we lost.
We beat Wales in 1978 because we did, not because ref got conned by players (though he was lol), we all saw the earthquake that made Haden and even Oliver fall out of lineout.
Mind you although I disliked what we did in Welsh test, I wish our players were desperate enough to get up to similar shit.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2026:
Comparisons to previous AB sides is interesting, but also a bit of a pointless way to critique the current coaches as it's pretty subjective what the worst AB side of all time would be.
What I do know is that it's pretty clear NZ rugby still has stacks of talent, but the ABs are playing well below the sum of their parts due to poor selection and a gameplan not suited to test footy. Two years in it's obvious that this coaching group is well out of their depth going up against much more experienced international coaches, and instead of trying to change things up, they had no answers so kept trying to do the same thing over and over and over again. That makes them bloody frustrating to support, to say the least.
It's going to be really interesting to see what NZR do after the review, as it's obvious we need someone with a lot more experience in the group, but there are no obvious candidates willing to work with Razor.
I agree. But I think the issue is that not that coaches aren’t willing to work with Razor, it’s that the standard of coaches in general within NZ is atrocious. Razor rang rings around them for years in super rugby and it’s no surprise that if he’s not up to it, the rest won’t be. None of the alternatives are viable options and I don’t necessarily blame Robertson (with all his faults) not trusting or wanting to work with coaches he consistently out coached at Super Rugby.
What is and was needed is strong overseas experience in the assistant coaching set up, with guys both Robertson and the team respect.
What is the most puzzling is that none of the tactics or game plans that have looked good have been persisted with for 80mins or for multiple games. The backline looked incredibly slick in the first few tests, particularly in the 22 with the out the back plays. Yet it was completely abandoned for the rest of the season. The forwards have demonstrated that they can play in tight and make serious metres yet they shelve it when it’s needed most. Both the infield leadership and coaching during the games is terrible and needs to be dealt with
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@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2026:
But I think the issue is that not that coaches aren’t willing to work with Razor, it’s that the standard of coaches in general within NZ is atrocious. Razor rang rings around them for years in super rugby and it’s no surprise that if he’s not up to it, the rest won’t be
While I agree in part with you on the standard of coaches in NZ (a lot seems to be down to lack of development & retention planning by NZR), not sure I agree with you that coaches outside of NZ don't have the goods.
If, as you say, Robertson doesn't trust or want to work with people like Joe Schmidt, Joseph, Cotter or Gilbert Enoka as he doesn't think they're good or trustworthy enough, it really doesn't speak well of Robertson's rugby nous or ability to lead.. Not sure I agree with you on that, but it's an interesting view.
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@jimmyb said in All Blacks 2026:
. Razor rang rings around them for years in super rugby and it’s no surprise that if he’s not up to it, the rest won’t be.Yeah well not according to Crusaders CEO who reckons a lot most it was down to the young talent unearthed by Aaron Webb.
But, as Crusaders chief executive Colin Mansbridge said: “Everyone goes ‘Razor, Razor, Razor’, maybe there should be more ‘Webby, Webby, Webby’.”
