Super Rugby - The Future
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@taniwharugby said in Exodus:
Blues charge NRU to host games
Fuck, I didn't know that.
I think it is the other way round when a PU gets an AB game.
The reason why the Auckland and Canterbury PUs are so financial, because they get the most Test matches.I wasn't aware that PUs paid for games to be taken to regions, and Blues could be different, I do know that when Canes play a game in Palmerston North, the City Council pays them a fee. Same as when Chiefs played a game in New Plymouth the city council paid them for it. I think if NRU did pay Blues , it would of been money they got ftom city council promotion fund.
Same happens with tests (same almost world over I think) the councils put money into bring events to city, not just sport. -
@SouthernMann , wasn't suggesting I knew more than you etc, I suggesting perhaps some just not thinking of the different requirements of each board. Highlanders aren't there just for to help Otago save money (and how many of Highlanders are Otago players), by sharing their costs, but to operate a completely different club. bit even on vehicles , as you say car dealerships could sign one deal instead of 2, but usually they use different dealerships anyway.
If it was that simple wouldn't NZR also share offices etc with the Canes as they based in Wellington?
I being a bit facetious on last comment, but ...
Wish it was that simple though. -
@SouthernMann , wasn't suggesting I knew more than you etc, I suggesting perhaps some just not thinking of the different requirements of each board. Highlanders aren't there just for to help Otago save money, by sharing their costs, but to operate a completely different club. bit even on vehicles , as you say car dealerships could sign one deal instead of 2, but usually they use different dealerships anyway.
If it was that simple wouldn't NZR also share offices etc with the Canes as they based in Wellington?I completely understand what the priorities should be of the two organisations. Infact I'd say my position is better than the understanding of aome PU boards that fiddle heavily in the operational businesses.
The PU should be focused on community development. The Super focused on HP.
HP spend has nearly crippled a few PUs.
You have really held on to the fleet point. Saying often use two different. One of the reasons I used that is that I know both Otago/Highlanders have a long-standing agreement with DC Motors. It was a case study example.
It isn't about either org being a white knight to the other. It is about looking at what are ways to support eachother by looking at how better support the primary goals they have.
Also these are recommendations made in a report about future proofing NZ Rugby. The partnering of home PUs with Super bases. It isn't out the box thinking.
NZR and Canes well that is just dumb. Except for the fact the most used training base for NZ high performance is... the home of the Canes out at Trentham.
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in my mind we're definitely at the point where we're going to have to accept some short term pain for long term gain...and that might come in a variety of forms
like @antipodean said we might have to dilute the NZ teams...short term will see super games closer to NPC quality....but long term we'll expose more players to a professional comp, more teams will also mean we'll see teams with new hubs so they might be able to reignite a connection with local fans...more bumbs on seats is more cash in the door and makes the product look more popular in screen which will be more attractive to sponsors
currently it feels like we've just resigned ourselves to the idea the sponsorship money we currently get is it and we need to cut our cloth....a successful long team plan would be looking to grow that, how do you sell a product to a new sponsor....make it look popular...
yes, season ticket holder might have to accept a couple of home games a year arent at home....but a bit of spectacle will also attract sponsors and new fans...and if we can make the season longer its probably a net gain anyway
my preference was always to drop super and promote the "top" 10 NPC teams, they would effectively morph into something different but i liked the idea if keeping some connection to the historical unions...but accept as other have pointed out that wont happy for a variety of reasons and so the Unions will just have to exist as pure rep teams, maybe playing exhibition games against each other...maybe purely the ranfuly shield, holder accepts 8-10 challenges a year depending on who can muster a squad together or something wild
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@SouthernMann said in Exodus:
NZR and Canes well that is just dumb. Except for the fact the moat used training base for NZ high performance is... the home of the Canes out at Trentham.
Haha
But you hit the nail right on the head there.
Does the Wellington PU HP program get the use of those facilities as well?
I am assuming that at the other SR clubs, the SR PUs HP programs share the same training facilities.
There are lots of other synergies that could be made.
Not impossible to have NZR/Canes/Wellington PU admin offices in the same building!Basically I'd see the SR element doin all the HP, and the PU element doin all the community.
It's not out of the box thinking, from comments I've seen from NZR honchos, they want to do it.
We are only talking about the SR PUs here.
The non-SR PUs will be as usual.The most complicating factor I see is the private equity element that I think all the SR franchises have.
Although they are all minority stakes, they do seem to have some day-to-day control.
Unsure exactly how the private equity relates to NZR.
Whether NZR can just do what they want, or do they have to talk those guys around.
Maybe why it has not been done already.
No private equity in the PUs! -
@SouthernMann said in Exodus:
NZR and Canes well that is just dumb. Except for the fact the moat used training base for NZ high performance is... the home of the Canes out at Trentham.
Haha
But you hit the nail right on the head there.
Does the Wellington PU HP program get the use of those facilities as well?
I am assuming that at the other SR clubs, the SR PUs HP programs share the same training facilities.
There are lots of other synergies that could be made.
Not impossible to have NZR/Canes/Wellington PU admin offices in the same building!Basically I'd see the SR element doin all the HP, and the PU element doin all the community.
It's not out of the box thinking, from comments I've seen from NZR honchos, they want to do it.
We are only talking about the SR PUs here.
The non-SR PUs will be as usual.The most complicating factor I see is the private equity element that I think all the SR franchises have.
Although they are all minority stakes, they do seem to have some day-to-day control.
Unsure exactly how the private equity relates to NZR.
Whether NZR can just do what they want, or do they have to talk those guys around.
Maybe why it has not been done already.
No private equity in the PUs!Yep Wellington do train at Silverstream where ABs train, mind you they like Canes and ABs and Pheonix soccer, they all pay for it. It;s a private facility. Yep but theprivate equity is what I trying to say stuffs up sharing of offices etc, WRU doen't even have any shares in Hurricanes. Not sure about other super clubs, but think most PUs have share in other them.
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@sparky said in Super Rugby - The Future:
Super Rugby isn't driving enough revenue.
I think the long-term solution is going to be a joint Japanese, Australian and NZ franchise rugby competition to replace Super Rugby. Then some sort of play offs against the top European teams.
The status quo is slowly dying.
League is the smaller sport in Europe. Super League average attendances are about 10,000 compared to 15,000 in the Guinness Premiership or 12,000 in League One (third tier) football and the United Rugby Championship.
European club rugby will remain an attractive destination for players in the second half of their careers.
Top 14 is currently attracting a lot of people. La Rochelle celebrated last week their 113th consecutive soldout game at home. Their stadium contains 18,000 seats for two years now. Its former capacity was 16,000. Bordeaux attracts at least a 26,000 crowd each time they play at home (43,000 when they play at the Matmut stadium).
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@mohikamo said in Super Rugby - The Future:
Yep, I want to keep the NPC. Why? Because it probably the best and enjoyable comp in the country. Does it cost NZR money, yep, but I only looking at it as what I want.
Haha
The older ferners can remember when NZ did have a world class domestic rugby comp.
Big crowds, great players, great games.
So sad for the younguns; at least the olduns have the memories.Mate I pretty keen on our domestic comp now. I prefer to to super.
Not as good as maybe could be, but I find it best we got.
Even that I would be very keen to having (as some have said) 9-10 team comp, or even the old 3 tier system. I also understand why it wouldn't work in this day or professionalism .
I also understand the idea of 9-10 teams in extended Super, but could only work with full rework of world rugby calendar (and perhaps a lot more money) . Perhaps not only moving RC to beginning of year, but also the inbound tours etc. Then go for a proper comp without stopping for tests?
Just a random thought. -
@Dan54 said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@mohikamo said in Super Rugby - The Future:
Yep, I want to keep the NPC. Why? Because it probably the best and enjoyable comp in the country. Does it cost NZR money, yep, but I only looking at it as what I want.
Haha
The older ferners can remember when NZ did have a world class domestic rugby comp.
Big crowds, great players, great games.
So sad for the younguns; at least the olduns have the memories.Mate I pretty keen on our domestic comp now. I prefer to to super.
Not as good as maybe could be, but I find it best we got.
Even that I would be very keen to having (as some have said) 9-10 team comp, or even the old 3 tier system. I also understand why it wouldn't work in this day or professionalism .
I also understand the idea of 9-10 teams in extended Super, but could only work with full rework of world rugby calendar (and perhaps a lot more money) . Perhaps not only moving RC to beginning of year, but also the inbound tours etc. Then go for a proper comp without stopping for tests?
Just a random thought.If I could go back to any sort of rugby period it would be the early 2000s Super Rugby era. Electric rugby, huge crowds and amazing players. Take me back.
The domestic NPC comp is nothing more than a development comp now unfortunately. The standard has dropped hugely over the last 10 years and with All Blacks barely playing in it, it’s just not a profitable model anymore with very moderate crowds. If nothing is done with Super Rugby it could end up with the same fate unfortunately.
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@Canes4life No arguments NPC is a development comp, but a good competitive one for me. I not sure how it is in Wellington or cities, but would get a mile more interest and talk etc on streets and clubs in most areas where I talk to people from.
I still think in most weekends you would get as many to NPC games (combined) as you got at super.. But talking to people on street and say at golf club, barber(where I really noticed people say NPC is all that interests me now) ,I have found people more interested in NPC. What answer is ,I not sure, but I think we tending to get disconnected sport more and more. Even the last couple of years, the fellas that followed the Wahs in NRL at gold club say yeah naa. I still support them, but don't really watch like I used to. I get impression even the soccer fellas at club (and in family) and I know , are not as fired up over it these days, cricket is even more so.
Is part of it that there is such a wide range of sports we have access too (and our apparent lack of concentration) that people are just watching highlights etc now? -
@Canes4life said in Super Rugby - The Future:
If I could go back to any sort of rugby period it would be the early 2000s Super Rugby era. Electric rugby, huge crowds and amazing players.
The NPC was still a huge spectacle back then too. Full houses for finals, ABs on the bench, etc.
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@Bovidae said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@Canes4life said in Super Rugby - The Future:
If I could go back to any sort of rugby period it would be the early 2000s Super Rugby era. Electric rugby, huge crowds and amazing players.
The NPC was still a huge spectacle back then too. Full houses for finals, ABs on the bench, etc.
Those were the days, wonderful memories going to the Tin and watching the likes of Lomu, Cullen, Umaga etc on display. The hay day for sure.
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@Dan54 said in Super Rugby - The Future:
I still think in most weekends you would get as many to NPC games (combined) as you got at super..
I can't find the hard numbers for Super attendance or a game by game breakdown for NPC. But even the soft ones, this claim is not true and I know it is one you constantly fall back on.
With NZRs publicity following the completion of the competition (NPC) it stated 240k fans attended games. That is across 77 games. Which means on average 3,117 people attended games. Meaning each week 21,818 people on average attended across the seven game weekend.
That 240k it includes:
18k Canterbury v Otago - final
Nearly 11 k Otago v BoP semi final
8 k Southland v OtagoThere is nearly 40k across three game.
22k would be two poorly attended NZ games in Super Rugby.
Not diminishing the crowds that turned out to some NPC games. It is just completely incrorect to compare overall attendance mumbers week in and out between the two comps.
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What id be curious to pick the brain of NZR about is what value they place upon the various comps and structures and how much benefit they believe they derive from each one respectively.
Despite everything NZ still massively over achieves in rugby compared to similar sized countries. No Irish team has won the European cup since 2018 and Ireland still can't make a RWC semi final. NZ remain competitive v countries with much larger resources like France.
So, what do the NZR see as the biggest point of differentiation between NZ and other countries from a structural standpoint? Because there are clearly benefits being derived from the status quo.
One thing I noticed about T14 is they have the crowds and the cash but the rugby can be a bit unimaginative and the league is of course full of foreign players who are ineligible for France. I'm not sure the way T14 is structured really enables the French national team to maximize its playing resources and fulfill its potential. I wonder if they might have stood a better chance at beating SA if they had sent a full strength side to NZ - stuff like this seems to hinder their chances at test level.
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@SouthernMann said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@Dan54 said in Super Rugby - The Future:
I still think in most weekends you would get as many to NPC games (combined) as you got at super..
I can't find the hard numbers for Super attendance or a game by game breakdown for NPC. But even the soft ones, this claim is not true and I know it is one you constantly fall back on.
With NZRs publicity following the completion of the competition (NPC) it stated 240k fans attended games. That is across 77 games. Which means on average 3,117 people attended games. Meaning each week 21,818 people on average attended across the seven game weekend.
That 240k it includes:
18k Canterbury v Otago - final
Nearly 11 k Otago v BoP semi final
8 k Southland v OtagoThere is nearly 40k across three game.
22k would be two poorly attended NZ games in Super Rugby.
Not diminishing the crowds that turned out to some NPC games. It is just completely incrorect to compare overall attendance mumbers week in and out between the two comps.
Ok, I admit I only do figures roughly, and obviously well out, I kind of take ths crowds I see an say Naki games and muliply them by 7. Never really worried enough to get into them all.. I will take your point quite happily.
I will still enjoy NPC anyway (and super). as it's all rugby for me to watch. -
This post is deleted!
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@Canes4life said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@Dan54 said in Super Rugby - The Future:
@mohikamo said in Super Rugby - The Future:
Yep, I want to keep the NPC. Why? Because it probably the best and enjoyable comp in the country. Does it cost NZR money, yep, but I only looking at it as what I want.
Haha
The older ferners can remember when NZ did have a world class domestic rugby comp.
Big crowds, great players, great games.
So sad for the younguns; at least the olduns have the memories.Mate I pretty keen on our domestic comp now. I prefer to to super.
Not as good as maybe could be, but I find it best we got.
Even that I would be very keen to having (as some have said) 9-10 team comp, or even the old 3 tier system. I also understand why it wouldn't work in this day or professionalism .
I also understand the idea of 9-10 teams in extended Super, but could only work with full rework of world rugby calendar (and perhaps a lot more money) . Perhaps not only moving RC to beginning of year, but also the inbound tours etc. Then go for a proper comp without stopping for tests?
Just a random thought.If I could go back to any sort of rugby period it would be the early 2000s Super Rugby era. Electric rugby, huge crowds and amazing players. Take me back.
The domestic NPC comp is nothing more than a development comp now unfortunately. The standard has dropped hugely over the last 10 years and with All Blacks barely playing in it, it’s just not a profitable model anymore with very moderate crowds. If nothing is done with Super Rugby it could end up with the same fate unfortunately.
Yep would love it, but we stuck with paying the bills with test rugby now aren't we! The test window moved later etc, and followed by Autumn series etc has surely put ruined things.
F*** professionalism stuffing things up!!I know we had to have it etc, but it certaily ruins sport really doesn't it?
